Did Jesus take the punishment for our sins?

[ForestGreenCook]

I'm not sure if you're addressing me.

I am Reformed Baptist essentially and hold the position of preservation of the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit preserves the person, causing them to persevere in the faith. I don't like the phrase "perseverance of the saints" because, while I believe that on the human side, the person chooses to persevere, I believe their perseverance is Spirit-wrought.

I am convicted of radical corruption, and this is what you would call total depravity. Radical corruption does not mean that the person exhibits sinful behavior without any restraint, because common grace affects even the unsaved man. Radical corruption means that every part of man's being is affected by the Fall, including his will, which is enslaved to Satan (1 John 3, Romans 6).

This necessitates that he receives a new heart, one of flesh rather than stone, in order to exhibit faith and repentance. Once he receives this new heart, he freely responds in faith and repentance, due to the change in nature. In other words, he sins "freely" due to his fallen nature, prior to conversion, and he freely chooses righteousness due to his new, regenerate nature.

I don't think he chooses to be regenerated, though. God chooses those he wants to regenerate, and those are the elect that he gives to his Son. It's not the other way around..man doesn't choose God; God chooses man. I would point to 1 Cor 1:26ff, John 6, 10 to support this position.

I agree that all need Christ, but the question is what causes faith in the unsaved man.

I also deny "free grace theology" and the teachings of Grace Evangelical Society, which proposes that a man can be saved yet remain a "carnal Christian" for the rest of his life. Salvation is union with Christ, and this by nature produces fruit. I would not single out just FGM and GES in regards to this...there are tons of Independent Fundamentalist Baptists and others which teach the same types of errors.

Even Paul says that he is carnal, (mortal) Rom 7:14, until he puts on immortality at the last day. That is why Paul, as well as we, have that warfare within us.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yep and theology comes in many different flavors. All have the main ingredient but different spices.

The truth is regardless of what we interpret we are still commanded to preach to win the lost. Regardless of how they respond rather it be only by God or God and man, is meaningless when all we are called to do is the great commission.

Totally depraved or not still doesn't change anything commanded of the believers.

Some may have poor theology or interpretation and the spices dont taste quite right with the main ingredient but it still can feed the individual and get them full enough to do what they have to do. As to why I do not see these type of theology threads as soul salvation issues. So even though in my past I have unfortunately wasted days of my time debating and writing out all the evidence for my theological beliefs related to anti Calvinism or Similar beliefs but now as mentioned above. It is meaningless due to the fact regardless of how people respond we are still commanded to try and reach everyone, not knowing who will respond or frankly we shouldn't worry about how. Let us do what is commanded and God will do what God does.

Everything else will be made known once we all reach Heaven.

You have some good theology, but you are not totally right. We are instructed, by Jesus, to preach to God's elect babes in Christ, who are still getting their nourishing from the milk of the word, teaching them the knowledge of of the word that they may be able to digest the meat of the word.

Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts, For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.

We are are also informed that we are not to try and determine who the elect are, therefore we are to preach, and teach those who show an interest in spiritual things. The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness., 1 Cor 2:14, therefore the natural man will not show an interest in spiritual things, until God regenerates him, Eph 2.

God's ordained preachers are not called to help him save souls to eternal heaven, but they are to preach to his lost sheep (elect), who are not lost eternally, but are lost to the knowledge of the word.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I do agree that we do need Jesus, and that we did not find him, but he found us. Eph 1:4, according as he hath chosen us.. 1 John 4:19, We love him, because he first loved us.

Glad we agree. Thanks

 

[Roughsoul1991]

You have some good theology, but you are not totally right. We are instructed, by Jesus, to preach to God's elect babes in Christ, who are still getting their nourishing from the milk of the word, teaching them the knowledge of of the word that they may be able to digest the meat of the word.

Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts, For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.

We are are also informed that we are not to try and determine who the elect are, therefore we are to preach, and teach those who show an interest in spiritual things. The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness., 1 Cor 2:14, therefore the natural man will not show an interest in spiritual things, until God regenerates him, Eph 2.

God's ordained preachers are not called to help him save souls to eternal heaven, but they are to preach to his lost sheep (elect), who are not lost eternally, but are lost to the knowledge of the word.

No one is 100% right. I could say the same of you. How do you determine who the elect lost sheep are? This is the whole point. In less God specifically shows me who is of the elect and who will be in the book of life, then I cannot pre determine on my own who to preach the Gospel to.

Christians will debate the details till Christ returns but those details shouldn't prohibit us from proclaiming the Gospel.

 

[Angela53510]

So did Jesus take the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us?



This seems right, I guess. Were you referring to God the Father when you were writing "God"?

I've been told that Jesus did not take the wrath of God (possibly the wrath that God the Father has towards sin, I guess I don't know exactly what I was told) on this forum, unless I'm mistaken. If I'm correct, was I told something heretical that could lead me to hell?

If you are a new Christian, and God has regenerated you, you simply can never lose your salvation, based on some person demanding you believe something they do, which is not Biblical. I even believe there are many with very wrong doctrine, some big, some small, some led astray by others, some misinterpreting the Bible on their own, and they are still saved.

I was an Arminian the first 25 years after I was saved, and became Reformed after I seriously studied the Bible. I started as a Pentecostal, but got disillusioned, and became a Baptist. At no time, was I at risk for losing my salvation. That is a lie from the pit of hell. I will honestly tell you, in 1999, I was diagnosed with severe and debilitating Rheumatoid Arthritis. I turned away from God. I would not read my Bible, pray, or go to church. But, I knew God was right there behind me, and he kept urging me to read the Psalms, which totally touched and renewed me. God then called me to seminary, where my life was completely changed, and more recently, a PhD in theology. God never left me, he knew the future he had planned for me. And he certainly restored me, even if he did not heal me of the RA. I run support groups for several health issues, on FB, where I am able to help people suffering from the disease, but also suffering from depression and often loneliness, through my testimony and the Word of God. It is an incredible blessing, how God is working Romans 8:28 out in my life. Read Romans 8. Also, Ephesians is an excellent book to read and Phil. 1:6.

If you want Scripture to support this doctrine called eternal security, here are a few links and videos. I am sure you can google both sides of this debate. Going to a Bible believing church, but not independent, would also help.

https://www.desiringgod.org/labs/five-truths-about-eternal-security

https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html

https://carm.org/what-is-the-eternal-security-of-the-believer