Did Jesus take the punishment for our sins?

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watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
108
63
#21
Did Jesus take the punishment for our sins?

Could people answer this question for me authoritatively, exhaustively if need be? I might have been told both yes and no to this question, on this forum. If the answer to this question is yes, Jesus took the punishment for our sins and you both believe that to be true and can answer this question, please help me out here. How can I be saved if Jesus took the punishment for our sins and I don't know for sure if that is true?
All i can say is this.
1. God intended for man to live forever.
He placed the tree of life in eden for adam to eat...
2.When adam sin death came in the good creation of God.
This is the reason why all die...whether you be good or evil.
Our body return to dust where it came from.
2. Jesus died and resurrected.
Jesus glorified bodies gave us hope for a new/heavenly body that fit eternal life.
3. If you believe this... then good for you.
4. What Jesus did... adam caused the body to rot...Jesus will give us new heavenly body.
By his death the sin that caused death to all has been substituted by his.
We all still die...but there is a new hope for a new body.
 

rstrats

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2011
595
18
18
#22
UnitedWithChrist,
re: "God already knows, infallibly, who will be saved, and the rest are doomed."

Does He have any input in the creation of a person, and if so, does He know before He creates the person that He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire? And if so, I wonder why He would go ahead and create the person anyway?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#23
UnitedWithChrist,
re: "God already knows, infallibly, who will be saved, and the rest are doomed."

Does He have any input in the creation of a person, and if so, does He know before He creates the person that He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire? And if so, I wonder why He would go ahead and create the person anyway?
Yes, he does know this, because he knows the end from the beginning.

See Is 46:9-10.

Isaiah 46:8-10 8 “Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors,
9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose

Regarding why he would create a person (or angel) knowing that they are doomed, that is something you will have to take up with Him. That is certainly what he does.

In fact, he personally gives those that are saved a new heart, so they can respond to him.

Open theists create God in their own image, claiming he doesn't have knowledge of the future, for the exact same reason that you have mentioned. They realize the consequences of a God that has exhaustive foreknowledge is that he creates humans who will ultimately be consigned to eternal punishment.

So, they create a limited god, in their minds, that conforms to their image. I call this a Play-doh god. They eliminate any negative aspect in forming their god.

I believe annihilationists do the same thing (by the way, I was a former open theist AND annihilationist).
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
4,346
624
113
#24
Punishment is the wrath of God. Jesus took the punishment we deserve so in the eyes of God we are pure and sinless. But only as our faith abides in Christ. God forgets and looks past our sins due to the sacrifice of Jesus.

Hebrews 10:14-18 New International Version (NIV)
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

All of this chapter is good to read but above should get my point across.
Your quote; "But only as our faith abides in Christ". If Christ died to take away the sins of those that his Father gave to him, and in God's eyes we are pure and sinless, then all of those that he died for will be regenerated and "quickened together with Christ". 2 Tim 2:13, If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful; he cannot deny himself, (because he is within us). So then, there is no question as to whether we will abide or not.

Our spiritual faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22, and does not save us eternally. If we possess spiritual faith, then we are already regenerated, and saved eternally. We are saved eternally by Christ's faithfulness in, willingly, going to the cross to die for those that his Father gave him.

Once we have been regenerated, we still do, occasionally, sin, and when we commit a sin, we separate ourselves from our fellowship with God, (not abiding in God's fellowship), but not from our eternal deliverance. When we repent, God saves (delivers us here in time, not eternally, because that has already taken place) but from suffering the burden of that sin.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
4,886
1,994
113
#25
Your quote; "But only as our faith abides in Christ". If Christ died to take away the sins of those that his Father gave to him, and in God's eyes we are pure and sinless, then all of those that he died for will be regenerated and "quickened together with Christ". 2 Tim 2:13, If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful; he cannot deny himself, (because he is within us). So then, there is no question as to whether we will abide or not.

Our spiritual faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22, and does not save us eternally. If we possess spiritual faith, then we are already regenerated, and saved eternally. We are saved eternally by Christ's faithfulness in, willingly, going to the cross to die for those that his Father gave him.

Once we have been regenerated, we still do, occasionally, sin, and when we commit a sin, we separate ourselves from our fellowship with God, (not abiding in God's fellowship), but not from our eternal deliverance. When we repent, God saves (delivers us here in time, not eternally, because that has already taken place) but from suffering the burden of that sin.
So I am assuming you hold to the preserverance of the saints doctrine and total depravity? Either way we can agree without Christ we cannot be saved. So whatever your theology or answer to those who do fall away or apostate, the message is still the same without Jesus they are in trouble. We may define trouble differently but I see too many scriptures about warning the believers to remain faithful, beware false teachings and teachers, prophecy predicts many believers to fall away.

Of course Jesus is faithful and cannot deny himself. The promises of God hard solid. Even if we fall in disbelief, the promise of God still holds true as it was with the prodigal son parable.

Luke 15:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

Again meaning once alive but chose to walk away, the chose to come back to the Father.

I no longer debate this much because in the end the core idea is the same. No one can see the end of time. Who is saved and who isnt. We cannot see the heart or the future. Regardless the theology behind those who walk away. The message is the same. They need Jesus.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#26
So I am assuming you hold to the preserverance of the saints doctrine and total depravity? Either way we can agree without Christ we cannot be saved. So whatever your theology or answer to those who do fall away or apostate, the message is still the same without Jesus they are in trouble. We may define trouble differently but I see too many scriptures about warning the believers to remain faithful, beware false teachings and teachers, prophecy predicts many believers to fall away.

Of course Jesus is faithful and cannot deny himself. The promises of God hard solid. Even if we fall in disbelief, the promise of God still holds true as it was with the prodigal son parable.

Luke 15:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

Again meaning once alive but chose to walk away, the chose to come back to the Father.

I no longer debate this much because in the end the core idea is the same. No one can see the end of time. Who is saved and who isnt. We cannot see the heart or the future. Regardless the theology behind those who walk away. The message is the same. They need Jesus.
I'm not sure if you're addressing me.

I am Reformed Baptist essentially and hold the position of preservation of the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit preserves the person, causing them to persevere in the faith. I don't like the phrase "perseverance of the saints" because, while I believe that on the human side, the person chooses to persevere, I believe their perseverance is Spirit-wrought.

I am convicted of radical corruption, and this is what you would call total depravity. Radical corruption does not mean that the person exhibits sinful behavior without any restraint, because common grace affects even the unsaved man. Radical corruption means that every part of man's being is affected by the Fall, including his will, which is enslaved to Satan (1 John 3, Romans 6).

This necessitates that he receives a new heart, one of flesh rather than stone, in order to exhibit faith and repentance. Once he receives this new heart, he freely responds in faith and repentance, due to the change in nature. In other words, he sins "freely" due to his fallen nature, prior to conversion, and he freely chooses righteousness due to his new, regenerate nature.

I don't think he chooses to be regenerated, though. God chooses those he wants to regenerate, and those are the elect that he gives to his Son. It's not the other way around..man doesn't choose God; God chooses man. I would point to 1 Cor 1:26ff, John 6, 10 to support this position.

I agree that all need Christ, but the question is what causes faith in the unsaved man.

I also deny "free grace theology" and the teachings of Grace Evangelical Society, which proposes that a man can be saved yet remain a "carnal Christian" for the rest of his life. Salvation is union with Christ, and this by nature produces fruit. I would not single out just FGM and GES in regards to this...there are tons of Independent Fundamentalist Baptists and others which teach the same types of errors.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
4,886
1,994
113
#27
I'm not sure if you're addressing me.

I am Reformed Baptist essentially and hold the position of preservation of the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit preserves the person, causing them to persevere in the faith. I don't like the phrase "perseverance of the saints" because, while I believe that on the human side, the person chooses to persevere, I believe their perseverance is Spirit-wrought.

I am convicted of radical corruption, and this is what you would call total depravity. Radical corruption does not mean that the person exhibits sinful behavior without any restraint, because common grace affects even the unsaved man. Radical corruption means that every part of man's being is affected by the Fall, including his will, which is enslaved to Satan (1 John 3, Romans 6).

This necessitates that he receives a new heart, one of flesh rather than stone, in order to exhibit faith and repentance. Once he receives this new heart, he freely responds in faith and repentance, due to the change in nature. In other words, he sins "freely" due to his fallen nature, prior to conversion, and he freely chooses righteousness due to his new, regenerate nature.

I don't think he chooses to be regenerated, though. God chooses those he wants to regenerate, and those are the elect that he gives to his Son. It's not the other way around..man doesn't choose God; God chooses man. I would point to 1 Cor 1:26ff, John 6, 10 to support this position.

I agree that all need Christ, but the question is what causes faith in the unsaved man.

I also deny "free grace theology" and the teachings of Grace Evangelical Society, which proposes that a man can be saved yet remain a "carnal Christian" for the rest of his life. Salvation is union with Christ, and this by nature produces fruit. I would not single out just FGM and GES in regards to this...there are tons of Independent Fundamentalist Baptists and others which teach the same types of errors.
No wasn't addressing you as to I quoted in reply to someone's comment to me.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
4,886
1,994
113
#28
I'm not sure if you're addressing me.

I am Reformed Baptist essentially and hold the position of preservation of the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit preserves the person, causing them to persevere in the faith. I don't like the phrase "perseverance of the saints" because, while I believe that on the human side, the person chooses to persevere, I believe their perseverance is Spirit-wrought.

I am convicted of radical corruption, and this is what you would call total depravity. Radical corruption does not mean that the person exhibits sinful behavior without any restraint, because common grace affects even the unsaved man. Radical corruption means that every part of man's being is affected by the Fall, including his will, which is enslaved to Satan (1 John 3, Romans 6).

This necessitates that he receives a new heart, one of flesh rather than stone, in order to exhibit faith and repentance. Once he receives this new heart, he freely responds in faith and repentance, due to the change in nature. In other words, he sins "freely" due to his fallen nature, prior to conversion, and he freely chooses righteousness due to his new, regenerate nature.

I don't think he chooses to be regenerated, though. God chooses those he wants to regenerate, and those are the elect that he gives to his Son. It's not the other way around..man doesn't choose God; God chooses man. I would point to 1 Cor 1:26ff, John 6, 10 to support this position.

I agree that all need Christ, but the question is what causes faith in the unsaved man.

I also deny "free grace theology" and the teachings of Grace Evangelical Society, which proposes that a man can be saved yet remain a "carnal Christian" for the rest of his life. Salvation is union with Christ, and this by nature produces fruit. I would not single out just FGM and GES in regards to this...there are tons of Independent Fundamentalist Baptists and others which teach the same types of errors.
Yep and theology comes in many different flavors. All have the main ingredient but different spices.

The truth is regardless of what we interpret we are still commanded to preach to win the lost. Regardless of how they respond rather it be only by God or God and man, is meaningless when all we are called to do is the great commission.

Totally depraved or not still doesn't change anything commanded of the believers.

Some may have poor theology or interpretation and the spices dont taste quite right with the main ingredient but it still can feed the individual and get them full enough to do what they have to do. As to why I do not see these type of theology threads as soul salvation issues. So even though in my past I have unfortunately wasted days of my time debating and writing out all the evidence for my theological beliefs related to anti Calvinism or Similar beliefs but now as mentioned above. It is meaningless due to the fact regardless of how people respond we are still commanded to try and reach everyone, not knowing who will respond or frankly we shouldn't worry about how. Let us do what is commanded and God will do what God does.

Everything else will be made known once we all reach Heaven.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,783
1,502
113
#29
Actually, what I might have been told is that Jesus did not take the wrath of God for us. (maybe that He did not take the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us)

That kind of changes things, because the people who might have told me this might say that Jesus took the punishment for our sins, but did not take the wrath of God for us. What is the difference though?
Like most doctrines. What God calls one. . the father of lies separates. What God calls separate the spirit of error calls it as one.

No difference. It is the work of the father and Son working together in perfect harmony and peace .A work of mutual submission in order to form the government of peace .Our peace that surpasses all human understanding.

A loving father working with a submissive Son. No father, no Son .Know the father, know the Son.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#30
Yep and theology comes in many different flavors. All have the main ingredient but different spices.

The truth is regardless of what we interpret we are still commanded to preach to win the lost. Regardless of how they respond rather it be only by God or God and man, is meaningless when all we are called to do is the great commission.

Totally depraved or not still doesn't change anything commanded of the believers.

Some may have poor theology or interpretation and the spices dont taste quite right with the main ingredient but it still can feed the individual and get them full enough to do what they have to do. As to why I do not see these type of theology threads as soul salvation issues. So even though in my past I have unfortunately wasted days of my time debating and writing out all the evidence for my theological beliefs related to anti Calvinism or Similar beliefs but now as mentioned above. It is meaningless due to the fact regardless of how people respond we are still commanded to try and reach everyone, not knowing who will respond or frankly we shouldn't worry about how. Let us do what is commanded and God will do what God does.

Everything else will be made known once we all reach Heaven.
At some level, I agree with you..however some doctrines are unacceptable and sub-Christian.
Yep and theology comes in many different flavors. All have the main ingredient but different spices.

The truth is regardless of what we interpret we are still commanded to preach to win the lost. Regardless of how they respond rather it be only by God or God and man, is meaningless when all we are called to do is the great commission.

Totally depraved or not still doesn't change anything commanded of the believers.

Some may have poor theology or interpretation and the spices dont taste quite right with the main ingredient but it still can feed the individual and get them full enough to do what they have to do. As to why I do not see these type of theology threads as soul salvation issues. So even though in my past I have unfortunately wasted days of my time debating and writing out all the evidence for my theological beliefs related to anti Calvinism or Similar beliefs but now as mentioned above. It is meaningless due to the fact regardless of how people respond we are still commanded to try and reach everyone, not knowing who will respond or frankly we shouldn't worry about how. Let us do what is commanded and God will do what God does.

Everything else will be made known once we all reach Heaven.
At some level, I agree..however some "Christians" believe sub-Christian doctrines.

Here's what I believe are core Christian doctrines, and those that defiantly teach against them are not Christians, I don't think:

1) the full deity and full humanity of Jesus Christ (Jesus is God and glorified man)
2) monotheism or the belief in one God
3) the doctrine of the Trinity
4) justification by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone
5) the inspiration and sole authority of Scripture as the rule of faith
6) substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross (Jesus died in the place of the believer)
7) original sin
8) virgin birth of Jesus
9) bodily resurrection of Jesus and
10) eternal reward of the righteous and eternal punishment of the unrighteous.

A new believer might not understand the details of these teachings, but no sound evangelical bible teacher denies them. They are integral to the message of Scripture, because they are focused on the person and mission of Jesus Christ.

I would also consider open theism or process theology to be sub-Christian.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
4,886
1,994
113
#31
At some level, I agree with you..however some doctrines are unacceptable and sub-Christian.


At some level, I agree..however some "Christians" believe sub-Christian doctrines.

Here's what I believe are core Christian doctrines, and those that defiantly teach against them are not Christians, I don't think:

1) the full deity and full humanity of Jesus Christ (Jesus is God and glorified man)
2) monotheism or the belief in one God
3) the doctrine of the Trinity
4) justification by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone
5) the inspiration and sole authority of Scripture as the rule of faith
6) substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross (Jesus died in the place of the believer)
7) original sin
8) virgin birth of Jesus
9) bodily resurrection of Jesus and
10) eternal reward of the righteous and eternal punishment of the unrighteous.

A new believer might not understand the details of these teachings, but no sound evangelical bible teacher denies them. They are integral to the message of Scripture, because they are focused on the person and mission of Jesus Christ.

I would also consider open theism or process theology to be sub-Christian.
I agree of course some doctrines that are extremely defiant of Gods word and evidently obvious should be denied and debated against.

But these core doctrines have held Christianity and Christians together for centuries. We may create denominations over the in depth theology on core doctrine but we should still unite against the dangers of secularism and destructive religions.

We in this day and age cannot afford to divide if we can help it. Scripture says to judge them by their fruit. I look at Christians or churches with different theological beliefs and then look at the fruit. Studying the fruit often causes me to be less judgmental and more forgiving.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#32
I agree of course some doctrines that are extremely defiant of Gods word and evidently obvious should be denied and debated against.

But these core doctrines have held Christianity and Christians together for centuries. We may create denominations over the in depth theology on core doctrine but we should still unite against the dangers of secularism and destructive religions.

We in this day and age cannot afford to divide if we can help it. Scripture says to judge them by their fruit. I look at Christians or churches with different theological beliefs and then look at the fruit. Studying the fruit often causes me to be less judgmental and more forgiving.
I can understand that at some level, but having worked in interdenominational parachurch ministries, I can tell you it is VERY HARD.

For instance, I worked in jail ministry. The chaplain was a nutty charismatic who told prisoners that God talked to him audibly, and wanted to exorcise them from generational sins.

In meetings with me, these topics were brought up by the prisoners. They wanted to know what I thought about it. So, what do I say?

My view is that the chaplain has mental issues or is a liar. Do I tell them that?

I finally left this ministry because 1) the guards harrassed me because they thought I was trafficking or something because I took the initiative of buying Christian books for prisoners because I knew they were hearing trash from other chaplain aides 2) the chaplains didn't care for me because I was against their kookiness which included radical KJV Onlyism, charismania, and nutty prophecy stuff 3) the prisoners themselves damaged books that I bought, using them for scratch writing paper, and I had to listen to demonic talk from child molesters on occasion.

And, as I read the newspaper, I see over and over again, guys that I thought were saved returning back to their filthy language, sexual immorality, and drug abuse....these were guys I thought exhibited some signs of being regenerated.

And, of course, the charismatic chaplain concluded these guys were saved, and are now lost. I didn't know what to think personally.

I can think of two guys in two years of doing jail ministry that I still have high hopes for. That's a pretty low yield concerning the amount of money I invested in giving materials.

But, anyways, I'm getting off track...it is REALLY hard to work with other Christians who don't share a common doctrinal basis due to the factors I have mentioned to you.

In theory, though, I agree with you...the practice is really hard, though.

Are you aware that George Whitefield was "sold out" by his friends, the Wesley brothers, and declared to hold a sub-biblical theology?

As soon as he left England to preach in the USA, the Wesleys filled in the gap left by him, at his recommendation, and started denouncing him for Reformed theology. Whitefield was very patient and forgiving towards them, but I can tell you for sure I wouldn't trust a free-willer in ministry.

Like I said, though, in theory I agree with you 100%. In practice, though, I've found that sectarianism within a common ministry doesn't work.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,647
4,137
113
#33
We are warned to beware of leavening of the Scribes and the Pharisees.
 
Dec 9, 2011
11,562
1,054
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#34
Did Jesus take the punishment for our sins?

Could people answer this question for me authoritatively, exhaustively if need be? I might have been told both yes and no to this question, on this forum. If the answer to this question is yes, Jesus took the punishment for our sins and you both believe that to be true and can answer this question, please help me out here. How can I be saved if Jesus took the punishment for our sins and I don't know for sure if that is true?
Everyone deep down knows there Is something Much greater than themselves,the creation Itself declares It.
look Into the spiritual mirror(the Bible)and It will tell you about yourself and about GODs promises.
Romans 10:13-17
King James Version

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
859
113
#35
How can I be saved if Jesus took the punishment for our sins and I don't know for sure if that is true?
As @seed_time_harvest says read the Bible to know for sure that Jesus took the punishment for our sins on Himself.

Faith is how you know what you can't see is really true. Faith is a gracious gift of God given to people so they can know that what they can't see is really true. And faith comes to a person through the Word of God. Several people in this thread have shared scriptures that talk about how Jesus pays the penalty for our sin. Read those scriptures in a Bible and ask God to grant you the gift of faith so you can see that what is written is really true.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#36
I can understand that at some level, but having worked in interdenominational parachurch ministries, I can tell you it is VERY HARD.

For instance, I worked in jail ministry. The chaplain was a nutty charismatic who told prisoners that God talked to him audibly, and wanted to exorcise them from generational sins.

In meetings with me, these topics were brought up by the prisoners. They wanted to know what I thought about it. So, what do I say?

My view is that the chaplain has mental issues or is a liar. Do I tell them that?

I finally left this ministry because 1) the guards harrassed me because they thought I was trafficking or something because I took the initiative of buying Christian books for prisoners because I knew they were hearing trash from other chaplain aides 2) the chaplains didn't care for me because I was against their kookiness which included radical KJV Onlyism, charismania, and nutty prophecy stuff 3) the prisoners themselves damaged books that I bought, using them for scratch writing paper, and I had to listen to demonic talk from child molesters on occasion.

And, as I read the newspaper, I see over and over again, guys that I thought were saved returning back to their filthy language, sexual immorality, and drug abuse....these were guys I thought exhibited some signs of being regenerated.

And, of course, the charismatic chaplain concluded these guys were saved, and are now lost. I didn't know what to think personally.

I can think of two guys in two years of doing jail ministry that I still have high hopes for. That's a pretty low yield concerning the amount of money I invested in giving materials.

But, anyways, I'm getting off track...it is REALLY hard to work with other Christians who don't share a common doctrinal basis due to the factors I have mentioned to you.

In theory, though, I agree with you...the practice is really hard, though.

Are you aware that George Whitefield was "sold out" by his friends, the Wesley brothers, and declared to hold a sub-biblical theology?

As soon as he left England to preach in the USA, the Wesleys filled in the gap left by him, at his recommendation, and started denouncing him for Reformed theology. Whitefield was very patient and forgiving towards them, but I can tell you for sure I wouldn't trust a free-willer in ministry.

Like I said, though, in theory I agree with you 100%. In practice, though, I've found that sectarianism within a common ministry doesn't work.
Another issue is that unusual beliefs amongst Christians (such as claiming that God talks to Christians audibly and that they are casting demons out left and right) is that these claims bring SHAME to the Church.

Unbelievers hear such tales and ridicule Christians for their stupidity, and rightly so.

I can give an example of this. A young prisoner related an alleged supernatural occurrence to me from another chaplain aide (I don't know which one). This one related to a dream. I told him a Muslim friend I have received a supernatural dream that led him to faith, but asked whether the guy's dream made sense, and whether it lead anyone to faith. Anyways, the prisoner was relieved to know that not all Christians believed in the zany claims of some charismatics.

Others follow women like Joyce Meyer, who teaches phony World of Faith theology. And..this morning..since I haven't had my first cup of coffee, I am wondering if she uses makeup or has had facelifts to promote the idea that the Curse only applies to her a little..

So, it is really hard to do parachurch ministry, especially when the chaplain is trying to infer that some sins are carried down generationally and need to be exorcised, that he talks to God personally, etcetera. I am sure the guy was plotting behind the scenes to get rid of me, although I told the prisoners never to give me the name of a person claiming something like that. I wanted to be free to criticize the belief, without knowing the person's name.

It is disturbing, but Christianity is full of such kooky claims and individuals. There is a core of sound thinkers, which definitely include conservative Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists. When I get outside that realm, I am uncomfortable, because so many others promote health, wealth, prosperity theology, liberal theology like denying penal substitutionary atonement, open theism, process theology, and evolution.

About the closest I've came to such individuals are the Calvary Chapel lot, and they are dispensationalists who rub shoulders with charismatics (although they control their own realm generally fairly well).
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,647
4,137
113
#37
God has not changed. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. H has always spoken to His people individually when it has been His will. Yes, and miracles occur today justg as they always have. When anyone shares with me what God has told him or her, I lisgten. I hold it in my heart if I do not understand, but I cannot say our lovign Father never speaks to Hi children…...….never.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#38
God has not changed. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. H has always spoken to His people individually when it has been His will. Yes, and miracles occur today justg as they always have. When anyone shares with me what God has told him or her, I lisgten. I hold it in my heart if I do not understand, but I cannot say our lovign Father never speaks to Hi children…...….never.
God is immutable, but this doesn't mean that he hasn't changed the manner in which he works with people over time. For instance, we no longer observe ceremonial laws of the Mosaic Law. They were mere shadows and types of the reality, which is Jesus and the New Covenant.

I am very suspicious about any claims.

Additionally, I think that the frequency we saw them in Scripture is much more infrequent than charismatics claim miracles are occurring.

By the way, now Francis Chan is claiming that a lot of people were healed by him, which is pretty sad because he was a conservative Christian not long ago.

I always thought Francis was weird anyways.

https://disrn.com/news/every-person...17K8o96AbKAQ8QBBb894jZhSzb3ous-2o4ysYbBp18dc8
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,647
4,137
113
#39
God is immutable, but this doesn't mean that he hasn't changed the manner in which he works with people over time. For instance, we no longer observe ceremonial laws of the Mosaic Law. They were mere shadows and types of the reality, which is Jesus and the New Covenant.

I am very suspicious about any claims.

Additionally, I think that the frequency we saw them in Scripture is much more infrequent than charismatics claim miracles are occurring.

By the way, now Francis Chan is claiming that a lot of people were healed by him, which is pretty sad because he was a conservative Christian not long ago.

I always thought Francis was weird anyways.

https://disrn.com/news/every-person...17K8o96AbKAQ8QBBb894jZhSzb3ous-2o4ysYbBp18dc8
We see the frequency of the works of Yah in the Word because it is a compilation of the works of all the prophets, the Apostles, many saints and of course, our Savior Jesus, Yeshua.

As the number of the wicked grows, since Jesus, the number of true believers diminishes until their number is finally achieved. This being so, and the revelation of Daniel teaching that in the end times believers will be few, we should be dubious but never denying our Father's power and love in individuals.

I do not like the clowns either. All love in Jesus, Yeshua...j
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
4,346
624
113
#40
So I am assuming you hold to the preserverance of the saints doctrine and total depravity? Either way we can agree without Christ we cannot be saved. So whatever your theology or answer to those who do fall away or apostate, the message is still the same without Jesus they are in trouble. We may define trouble differently but I see too many scriptures about warning the believers to remain faithful, beware false teachings and teachers, prophecy predicts many believers to fall away.

Of course Jesus is faithful and cannot deny himself. The promises of God hard solid. Even if we fall in disbelief, the promise of God still holds true as it was with the prodigal son parable.

Luke 15:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

Again meaning once alive but chose to walk away, the chose to come back to the Father.

I no longer debate this much because in the end the core idea is the same. No one can see the end of time. Who is saved and who isnt. We cannot see the heart or the future. Regardless the theology behind those who walk away. The message is the same. They need Jesus.
I do agree that we do need Jesus, and that we did not find him, but he found us. Eph 1:4, according as he hath chosen us.. 1 John 4:19, We love him, because he first loved us.