Did the Virgin Mary have children after giving birth to Christ?

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SantoSubito

Guest
see this is how they work. The THINK they have shown proof. but all they have is circumstantial evidence at best, which prove nothing, saying it MAY be, does not mean it IS, and remember, it is ok if they use this proof. But how dare we do the same.

What you see is they say they have proved it with their sources. We say the same thing and we have a standstill.

When this happens, people usually resort to quoting other people they think support them, and even call them so called "credible sources" but again we have the hypocracy, because when we do the same, they say our sources are not credible blah blah... and it stops being a discussion between people, and a discussion of what people in the past said. which is why we never get anywhere.
It's a pretty straight forward line of argument. The scriptures do not bear out or say that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, but there are things that point to her not having other children, but this in and of itself does not make the issue entirely clear. So we look to what the Church has believed throughout the centuries and we find that they believed in the perpetual virginity (all of the Protestant reformers among them), and so we accept the perpetual virginity. That's the difference between us accepting the perpetual virginity even in light of this so called circumstantial evidence and you rejecting it in light of the same, we have the constant historical witness of the Church on our side and you have, well, nothing.

Many people are just reacting against the perpetual virginity because they see it as "Catholic excess" or something of the sort. But thats to be expected among people who descend from the radical reformation, who's purpose was to remake the church from scratch, and not simply reform it.
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
so to summarise All of the Catholics believe that Mary was a virgin and all of the born again believers believe otherwise?

Jesus is not coming back for the majority he is coming back for the minority.

Shabbat Shalom
Like dschereck said that would imply that Catholics aren't Christians. Which I find to be a hilarious accusation personally.
 
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systemdown101

Guest
I still have yet to understand the importance of Mary remaining a virgin her entire life. Up until the birth of Yeshua, yes, but beyond that, I still don't understand why such a fact is important at all. Does it even matter? If so, why? I mean, the prophecy was that a virgin shall conceive, it doesn't say anything about her remaining in that state or not.

 
K

kujo313

Guest
I still have yet to understand the importance of Mary remaining a virgin her entire life. Up until the birth of Yeshua, yes, but beyond that, I still don't understand why such a fact is important at all. Does it even matter? If so, why? I mean, the prophecy was that a virgin shall conceive, it doesn't say anything about her remaining in that state or not.

AMEN!!

Now if the rest of the people here would share that same attitude.
 
K

kujo313

Guest
Dear kujo: To deny Scripture is to deny calling Mary "blessed", and to be one of those cursed generations who does not call Mary blessed, in defiance of Mary's Holy Spirit-inspired prophecy, "Behold, all generations will call me blessed". Mary, as St. Elisabeth said, is "Blessed among women" and "blessed is the fruit of her womb".
We bless Mary because Christ blessed her to be the Mother of God. Of God the Son, Jesus Christ.
To deny Mary is indeed to deny Jesus Christ. It is against the commandment of God, "Honor thy father and thy mother". Christ honored His Mother. Who are we not to honor Christ's Mother, are we better than Christ? No! Not at all! We must do WHAT CHRIST TELLS US TO DO. And Christ tells us to honor Mary.
Scott in Erie
The word "bless" is the same word Jesus used on His sermon on the mount. People can be just as blessed.
Paul, led by the Holy Spirit, taught Christ. He warned of teachings other than what he taught.

"Honor", you say. How? Would Jesus approve wearing of "Mary's" scapular for a way to escape Hell? Did Paul teach reciting a rosary at a funeral?

Jesus taught that God is our Father. To say, "therefore, if we have a Father, then we have a mother" is off-focus of Christ's teachings. To wonder about things not mentioned in the Bible is fruitless and unnecessary.

The subject of this thread has no importance to our Salvation.

True, Mary did give birth to Jesus. Does it make Him null and void if Mary had other children after Him? Of course not. What is important was that Mary was the "sign" as prophesized for the coming Messiah. If you take her out of the Bible after that, Jesus is still Jesus. God is still God. Jesus still died for our sins. He is still our Savior.

That's why Mary is not mentioned a lot in the Bible: that's all we NEED to know about her. Our focus SHOULD be on God and not one of His creations.
 
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StMichaelTheArchangel

Guest
I still have yet to understand the importance of Mary remaining a virgin her entire life. Up until the birth of Yeshua, yes, but beyond that, I still don't understand why such a fact is important at all. Does it even matter? If so, why? I mean, the prophecy was that a virgin shall conceive, it doesn't say anything about her remaining in that state or not.

Its lies in the fact that virginity is a blessed state and also Mary is blessed for that because she bore Christ by her virginity. We need to affirm her Ever Virginity because it was in the blessed virgin state that she bore Christ the Logos.

Does it make sense now?


This argument is becoming a "he said she said" kind of argument, a "my word against yours" kind of thing. But the Universal Church of Christ has always honored Mary as being "Ever Virgin" because virginity was needed for Christ to be born. We honor Mary because she is the true Ark of the Covenant. This is very important.
 
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kujo313

Guest
Like dschereck said that would imply that Catholics aren't Christians. Which I find to be a hilarious accusation personally.
Go to a Catholic funeral and then go to a Christian funeral.
Only the RCCs will spend up to an hour repeating themselves over 50 times. Repeating what?

Catholic funeral: "Mary, pray for us".
Christian funeral: "Jesus, take me home."

I see a pattern.

as for me:

1 Corinthians 2:2 << (Did Paul deny Mary?? Uh, no. He was just properly focused on what he/we need to focus on)
 
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StMichaelTheArchangel

Guest
Go to a Catholic funeral and then go to a Christian funeral.
Only the RCCs will spend up to an hour repeating themselves over 50 times. Repeating what?

Catholic funeral: "Mary, pray for us".
Christian funeral: "Jesus, take me home."

I see a pattern.

as for me:

1 Corinthians 2:2 << (Did Paul deny Mary?? Uh, no. He was just properly focused on what he/we need to focus on)
Yes, we can ask Mary to pray for us as also all the other Saints. What is so hard about that? We pray to Mary and the Saints to PRAY TO GOD for us. We do not look at Mary and the Saints as our Savior, because our Savior is Jesus Christ, but we pray to them to pray for us to God.

But you will probably reply, "Me, pray to dead people?", and I will answer you yes, because they are not dead but alive in Christ.

And about 1 Cor 2:2, what makes you think you can project the message that Paul was saying without properly interpreting the text? Sola Scriptura has screwed a whole lot of people up when it comes to theology, it is not an Apostolic Teaching.
 
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kujo313

Guest
Yes, we can ask Mary to pray for us as also all the other Saints. What is so hard about that? We pray to Mary and the Saints to PRAY TO GOD for us. We do not look at Mary and the Saints as our Savior, because our Savior is Jesus Christ, but we pray to them to pray for us to God.

But you will probably reply, "Me, pray to dead people?", and I will answer you yes, because they are not dead but alive in Christ.

And about 1 Cor 2:2, what makes you think you can project the message that Paul was saying without properly interpreting the text? Sola Scriptura has screwed a whole lot of people up when it comes to theology, it is not an Apostolic Teaching.

What was NOT an Apostolic Teaching is asking Mary for anything. When it comes to prayer, Jesus taught us to pray TO God.
Your argument is that saints who died are in God's presence so how great are THEIR prayers.

Jesus taught the living to pray TO God, Himself. Because of Jesus, we, believers, are worthy to do that.

As in the parable of the ten virgins, Jesus taught the ones without oil to go to the same source that the others got their oil from. No "middle-man".

Jesus taught the people to go to God in prayer, so should we.

Sure, we should pray for one another. But pray TO God. Not TO another person but FOR another person.
 
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I believe Mary had children after Jesus.

54And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

55Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

57And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

58And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief(Matthew 13:54-58).

The people in the synagogue was amazed at Jesus' wisdom and His works,for they thought He was a mere man,by pointing out His immediate family,Father,Mother,and His brothers and sisters.

The point here is they were pointing out His immediate family,making it a point of how can Jesus have such wisdom and works,seeing He was born in this world like everyone else,by the fact He had a mother,and father,and sisters,and brothers.

It is not mentioning cousins,and the fact that it mentioned His mom and dad first tells that what follows is His brothers and sisters.

Also the disciples pointed out to Jesus as He was speaking to a crowd,that His mother and brothers were outside the crowd,wanting to talk to Him,which is His immediate family,and Jesus pointed out that speaking to the crowd of spiritual matters was more important than speaking to them,and whoever does the will of the Father is His family.

It is talking of His immediate family wanting to talk to Him.

There is a Greek word for cousin but it is not used but brother is used.

36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren(Luke 1:36).

58And her neighbours and her cousins heard how the Lord had shewed great mercy upon her; and they rejoiced with her.

The Bible calls Elisabeth the cousin of Mary.The Bible calls these people cousins,so if it meant Jesus' cousins it would of said so.

If brothers mean cousins,then how come every time Jesus' mother comes to see Him,or she is mentioned,the brothers,or cousins so they say,are almost always with her,like they do not have their own mom and family to hang out with,and why are they not with Jesus but always with Mary.

This is a fundamental error of building the foundation from the roof down.

They already had the doctrine of Mary being the co-redeemer,and mediatrix of all graces,so they must portray her as a virgin to keep that doctrine.

They had the doctrine of Mary being those things,which she must stay a virgin,and so they try to convince people they are cousins so they can hold unto the doctrine that Mary was always a virgin,because they believe she is co-redeemer and mediatrix of all graces.

17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him(Colossians 3:17).

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me(John 14:6).

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved(Acts 4:12).

But we know that Jesus is the only savior and Mary cannot help us.

46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother(Matthew 12:46-50).


27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it(Luke 11:27-28).


And we know that Jesus treated all the saints on the same level as Mary,and all the saints were all equal as Mary,and Jesus put Mary in the same boat as all the saints,and did not exalt her above other saints,and Jesus called Mary,woman,when dealing with her,and that is because God gets the glory,not Mary,and everybody has their labor from God to do the Lord's work.


But that is all it is,they view Mary as co-redeemer and mediatrix of all graces,so she must remain a virgin to be those things,so brothers must mean cousins and not children from Mary.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
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"Those who speak for themselves want glory only for themselves, but a person who seeks to honor the one who sent him speaks truth, not lies." (John 7:18)

This is what Jesus says about the person who speaks the Truth, he does not speak from his own authority but from another, higher authority.

A higher authority is the bible. Not books written on opinion
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
Go to a Catholic funeral and then go to a Christian funeral.
Only the RCCs will spend up to an hour repeating themselves over 50 times. Repeating what?

Catholic funeral: "Mary, pray for us".
Christian funeral: "Jesus, take me home."

I see a pattern.

as for me:

1 Corinthians 2:2 << (Did Paul deny Mary?? Uh, no. He was just properly focused on what he/we need to focus on)
Catholic funerals have 3 parts; the wake, the Requiem Mass, and the burial. The wake of course is a time to gather and remember the deceased and pray for the deceased; at the wake any number of prayers are said one of the most frequent and common being the Réquiem ætérnam:

Réquiem ætérnam dona ei (eis) Dómine; et lux perpétua lúceat ei (eis). Requiéscat (Requiéscant) in pace. Amen.

depending on family tradition the Rosary could be said or in my case the entire Psalter is prayed in the presence of the dead.

Next is the Requiem Mass which goes like this. The priest, dressed in a black cope, will greet the coffin at the door of the Church, sprinkling it with Holy Water, and intoning the De Profundis (Pslam 129) and the Miserere (Psalm 50). The Introit asks that eternal rest be given to the departed, and the Collect asks that God deliver his or her soul. The Epistle will be a reading of I Thessalonians 4:13-18, in which St. Paul speaks of death. After the Gradual, a Tract asking absolution from every bond of sin on the part of the deceased is intoned, followed by the glorious Sequence, the Dies Irae. The Gospel will be a reading of John 11:21-27, the story of St. Martha's profession of faith that her brother, Lazarus, will rise again. The Offertory prayer asks Jesus Christ, King of Glory, to deliver the souls of the faithful departed from Hell, and for St. Michael to lead them into the holy Light. The Secret asks pity on the soul of the departed. The Communion asks that light eternal shine on the departed, and the Postcommunion asks that the Sacrifice of the Mass purify the departed.

Afterwards, the priest, again vested in a black cope, stands at the foot of the coffin and grants the departed absolution, which is followed by the Responsory, Libera Me. A Kyrie is then chanted, followed by the Pater, during which the priest passes twice around the body, sprinkling it with holy water and incensing it. This is followed by a prayer asking that the holy angels bear the departed to paradise. As the body is carried out of church, the Antiphon In Paradisum is sung ("May the angels lead you into paradise: may the martyrs receive you at your coming, and lead you into the holy city, Jerusalem. May the choir of angels receive you, and with Lazarus, who once was poor, may you have everlasting rest.")

Finally we come to the burial. After the Requiem Mass, the coffin is taken to the cemetery. The ground or mausoleum in which the body will be disposed should be blessed by a priest if the cemetery is not a proper Catholic cemetery (which is the ideal) or already blessed. This is done with these words as the grave and body are sprinkled with holy water and incensed.:

Latin:
Deus, cujus miseratióne ánimæ fidélium requiéscunt, hunc túmulum benedícere dignáre, eíque Angelum tuum sanctum députa custódem: et quorum quarúmque córpora hic sepeliúntur, ánimas eórum ab ómnibus absólve vínculis delictórum; ut in te semper cum Sanctis tuis sine fine læténtur. Per Christum Dóminum nostrum. Amen..

Now the priest will intone the Canticle of Luke 1:68-79. This is followed by the Antiphon John 11:25-26 and by a short Kyrie while the priest prays the Pater silently and sprinkles the body with holy water. He again asks that the soul rest in peace, and ends with another prayer for mercy. It all ends with the following, said as the priest makes the Sign of the Cross over the body:

Réquiem æternam dona ei, Dómine. Et lux perpétua lúceat ei. Requiéscat in pace. Amen.

Anima ejus, et ánimæ ómnium fidélium defunctórum, per misericórdiam Dei requiéscant in pace.

Amen.

If you notice there's not any references to Mary in the whole process.
 
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StMichaelTheArchangel

Guest
A higher authority is the bible. Not books written on opinion
But where did the Bible come from, did it just all of the sudden fall out of the sky? You need to study your Faith more and figure out how Christianity actually exists in the first place. It is not because of a book (the Bible).
God is not some sort of magical fairy God Father in the sky who can just magically give us Christianity, Christianity came through and was spread by the Church. Without the Church, there would be no Christianity as you know it today. There would also be no Bible as you know it today without the Church.

The Church is the "Ground and pillar of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15), not the Bible.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Mary, the Theotokos (God bearer), is the Ark of the Covenant, for you to denigrate her holiness and virginity is for you so denigrate her ability to be the portal from earth to Heaven. She is Ever Virgin because she is the "Mother of Salvation". "Eve is called Mother of the human race, but Mary, Mother of Salvation." - (St Ambrose of Milan 4th C)

It is sad how you elevate Mary when Jesus is the one that should be elevated. Mary is not the Ark of the Covenant. Mary is not the Mother of Salvation. Mary is the vessel God used to bring forth His Son from a virgin. She was simply a virgin. Not a magical virgin or a forever virgin. Just a virgin until Jesus was born. Then she knew her husband and had more kids.

Mary did not, does not, have any ability to do anything of herself. It was not her ability to be a portal. God used her and God did all the work. It was all God's ability and nothing Mary did. God deserves the praise you are giving Mary. God deserves your prayers, directly.


How is the Orthodox Tradition "shown to be incorrect"? Is it because you think you are infallible and can teach infallibly? The same goes for many other Protestants, they think that they are infallible in their own teachings and interpretations of Scriptures because they have no Ultimate Authority to submit to such as "the Church of the Living God, the ground and pillar of the Truth" ( 1 Tim 3:15)

I don't claim to be infallible. Infallibility claimed by a person OR A CHURCH, is silly. People are not infallible, even when they are part of a church. Jesus Christ is the only one that is infallible, the true ground and pillar of truth.

The orthodox tradition of Mary being a virgin forever is shown to be incorrect by everyone that can read the bible and believes what it says.



Luke 11:27 And it happened, while He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb which bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!"
Luk 11:28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

That was from the Majority Text which is the true translation of the NT. The "word of God" here is Jesus Christ, because the Greek word that is used is LOGOS who is Jesus Christ. It was not talking about the Bible because the Bible was not created then.

The bible is still the word of God. The written word of God.



[/quote]

The Church is the Church of the Living God, the Ground and Pillar of the Truth. You only have letters (the Bible) which is just a text, it alone does not bring you salvation because you must have the Church and its Sacramental Grace. The Church is the Word of God in action, without the Church, you are walking in the path of self deception - and that without Sacramental Grace. Self deception occurs when a person believes that he already knows everything and has no need to be instructed anymore by anyone. That is the problem with Protestants, they think they know everything about what the Church is and about how to be a Christian.

We don't believe in a book, we believe in the Church, for the letter kills but the Spirit gives life (to the Church).


2Corinthians_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. [/quote]




Gross Error. The letter in this verse is not talking about the bible killing. It is talking about the letter of the Law that kills.

Gods Church is not a church built with hands that someone can point to and say "look, Gods church, the pillar and ground of truth." Gods church is made up of people that He has saved, from all the different denominations.


Self deception occurs when you place the opinion of men over the word of the Living God.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
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A higher authority is the bible. Not books written on opinion
Keep in mind that there was a Christian faith before Paul's letters, and even before the Gospels were written. The Christian faith produced the Bible, not vice-versa. When you look at the Scriptures themselves, we see numerous references to the authority of the Church, and the fact that it is the Church, not the Scriptures which is called the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth.
 
Nov 23, 2011
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What was NOT an Apostolic Teaching is asking Mary for anything. When it comes to prayer, Jesus taught us to pray TO God.
Your argument is that saints who died are in God's presence so how great are THEIR prayers.

Jesus taught the living to pray TO God, Himself. Because of Jesus, we, believers, are worthy to do that.

As in the parable of the ten virgins, Jesus taught the ones without oil to go to the same source that the others got their oil from. No "middle-man".

Jesus taught the people to go to God in prayer, so should we.

Sure, we should pray for one another. But pray TO God. Not TO another person but FOR another person.

Then James 5:16 is false. And this verse says nothing about whether or not the people who pray are in heaven or on earth. Significantly, James 5:17 mentions Elias (Elijah), who is in heaven. So St. Elias can pray for Christians. And Christians do not pray to another person but THROUGH another person. Not from themselves only to God, but also in the COMMUNION OF SAINTS. We do not go to God alone, all by ourselves, but in the company of ALL SAINTS, both those saints on earth and those in heaven. Jesus did not teach anything about not asking others to pray to God for us. See James 5:16. Yes, we can go to God directly. Thus, we can also pray directly to God through the saints. Thus all prayer is directed TO GOD. But it can and does go through and in company with the Saints and with Mary.
Through the prayers of Thy Most Pure Mother, LORD Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us.
Through the prayers of our holy Fathers, and of all the Saints, LORD Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us. Thus, we are not praying TO Mary or TO the Saints, but THROUGH them TO GOD alone.
Protestants are immature and heretical and don't understand this. Their chief person through whom they profess to believe Scripture is Martin Luther, and they believe in "faith alone" through the say so of Luther alone. But it's Luther's misunderstanding of the Bible, not the Bible itself, that they follow.
 
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StMichaelTheArchangel

Guest
Keep in mind that there was a Christian faith before Paul's letters, and even before the Gospels were written. The Christian faith produced the Bible, not vice-versa. When you look at the Scriptures themselves, we see numerous references to the authority of the Church, and the fact that it is the Church, not the Scriptures which is called the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth.
Exactly, how does someone believe in the Bible without evidence of who put it together and how it got here?

The Bible truly has become an idol in our American society, it is looked upon as though it were the Holy Koran which just magicaly fell from heaven... but the Bible is not a Koran, it is a collection of writings which were put together by holy men (the Church Fathers) in the ancient Church.


I just cannot understand why some people will accept the Bible as the ultimate authority but do not want to understand where it came from. Its very ironic. Its like believing in something before you have actual proof of its authenticity.

Its not wonder why some people just have such a difficult time believing in Christianity, because the Christians think that God is a magical fairy God parent who just rained down the Holy Bible on us.
 
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Nov 23, 2011
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It is sad how you elevate Mary when Jesus is the one that should be elevated. Mary is not the Ark of the Covenant. Mary is not the Mother of Salvation. Mary is the vessel God used to bring forth His Son from a virgin. She was simply a virgin. Not a magical virgin or a forever virgin. Just a virgin until Jesus was born. Then she knew her husband and had more kids.

Mary did not, does not, have any ability to do anything of herself. It was not her ability to be a portal. God used her and God did all the work. It was all God's ability and nothing Mary did. God deserves the praise you are giving Mary. God deserves your prayers, directly.





I don't claim to be infallible. Infallibility claimed by a person OR A CHURCH, is silly. People are not infallible, even when they are part of a church. Jesus Christ is the only one that is infallible, the true ground and pillar of truth.

The orthodox tradition of Mary being a virgin forever is shown to be incorrect by everyone that can read the bible and believes what it says.




The bible is still the word of God. The written word of God.
The Church is the Church of the Living God, the Ground and Pillar of the Truth. You only have letters (the Bible) which is just a text, it alone does not bring you salvation because you must have the Church and its Sacramental Grace. The Church is the Word of God in action, without the Church, you are walking in the path of self deception - and that without Sacramental Grace. Self deception occurs when a person believes that he already knows everything and has no need to be instructed anymore by anyone. That is the problem with Protestants, they think they know everything about what the Church is and about how to be a Christian.

We don't believe in a book, we believe in the Church, for the letter kills but the Spirit gives life (to the Church).


2Corinthians_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. [/quote]




Gross Error. The letter in this verse is not talking about the bible killing. It is talking about the letter of the Law that kills.

Gods Church is not a church built with hands that someone can point to and say "look, Gods church, the pillar and ground of truth." Gods church is made up of people that He has saved, from all the different denominations.


Self deception occurs when you place the opinion of men over the word of the Living God.

[/quote]

"God's church is made up of people that He has saved, from all the different denominations".

Really? All denominations?

LDS? Mormons? Jesus Christ and Satan are brothers. God is a man, and man can become God or a god?
Jehovah's Witnesses? Jesus Christ is the Archangel Michael and is not God. Jesus Christ's body was dissolved into gases, and was not bodily physically resurrected from the dead?
Seventh-Day Adventists? Have to keep Saturday Sabbath to go to heaven? Sunday keeping is "the mark of the Beast?"
Armstrongists? God is a Family with many gods, many members of the God Family, many persons will become God/gods?
People can be "saved" in all these different denominations, believing these false teachings?
People can believe whatever they want to believe the Bible believes, and still be in God's Truth?
Can a person be saved without knowing and believing God's Truth?
In Erie Scott Harrington
 
Nov 23, 2011
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It is sad how you elevate Mary when Jesus is the one that should be elevated. Mary is not the Ark of the Covenant. Mary is not the Mother of Salvation. Mary is the vessel God used to bring forth His Son from a virgin. She was simply a virgin. Not a magical virgin or a forever virgin. Just a virgin until Jesus was born. Then she knew her husband and had more kids.

Mary did not, does not, have any ability to do anything of herself. It was not her ability to be a portal. God used her and God did all the work. It was all God's ability and nothing Mary did. God deserves the praise you are giving Mary. God deserves your prayers, directly.





I don't claim to be infallible. Infallibility claimed by a person OR A CHURCH, is silly. People are not infallible, even when they are part of a church. Jesus Christ is the only one that is infallible, the true ground and pillar of truth.

The orthodox tradition of Mary being a virgin forever is shown to be incorrect by everyone that can read the bible and believes what it says.




The bible is still the word of God. The written word of God.
The Church is the Church of the Living God, the Ground and Pillar of the Truth. You only have letters (the Bible) which is just a text, it alone does not bring you salvation because you must have the Church and its Sacramental Grace. The Church is the Word of God in action, without the Church, you are walking in the path of self deception - and that without Sacramental Grace. Self deception occurs when a person believes that he already knows everything and has no need to be instructed anymore by anyone. That is the problem with Protestants, they think they know everything about what the Church is and about how to be a Christian.

We don't believe in a book, we believe in the Church, for the letter kills but the Spirit gives life (to the Church).


2Corinthians_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. [/quote]




Gross Error. The letter in this verse is not talking about the bible killing. It is talking about the letter of the Law that kills.

Gods Church is not a church built with hands that someone can point to and say "look, Gods church, the pillar and ground of truth." Gods church is made up of people that He has saved, from all the different denominations.


Self deception occurs when you place the opinion of men over the word of the Living God.

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Amen, Grandpa. "Self deception occurs when you place the opinion of men over the word of the Living God."

Faith alone? Why? Because Martin Luther "says so". "It is so. And my own will is reason enough. It is so [adding the word "alone" after faith to Romans 3:28] because I, Herr Doctor Martin Luther, say it is so."
And millions of Lutherans and other Protestants place the opinion of a man, Luther, over the word of the Living God. Over James 2:24 and other verses which prove that faith "without works is dead", and justification is "not by faith alone' (James 2:24).
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington