Did Those Who Were Never of The Elect Ever Have Free-Will?

[Pasifika]

They still wanted to go back to Egypt (slavery)

Which proves your point no slave would so no to be in error

You either slave to Sin or slave to Righteousness. If you reject the freedom that is in Christ, then you're still slave to sin. simple as that..

 

[Pasifika]

do you speak another language?

I quoted the scripture YOU posted

yes you did say you were saved by baptism on your profile

whatever

yes "spiritual baptism". See Gal 3:27

 

[Pasifika]

the Bible says we should not avoid other beleivers....the church is the body of believers....we can usually find those in a building somewhere

listen...you are so dodgy in your responses I don't think you really know what it is you think you are trying to believe

what? the church is the body of believers? where did you this from? Eph 1:23

 

[Magenta]

You either slave to Sin or slave to Righteousness. If you reject the freedom that is in Christ, then you're still slave to sin. simple as that..

From Romans 6:16-18 ~ Do you not know that you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

 

[Pasifika]

Thats an excellent point. I can't think of a good rebuttal to it right now. But I promise if I do i'll get back to you. What is preventing me from accepting the explanation though is that IF it truly is the case that these Corinthians were chosen by God, before they had done good or evil before the foundation of the world, then WHY are there so many warning passages all over the Bible about falling away from the faith? Take for example in the book you quoted: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Why does Paul warn the Corinthians who were chosen and are guaranteed salvation to be careful to not live this way or they will NOT inherit the kingdom?

If you could explain to me the warning passages, you have peaked my interest for sure

This is how I see it..the warnings are part of the training for His children, so they will know what the Father dislike and the things He likes. (Revealed God "Likeness").

If you own a business and you have an heir. Then part of the training is to warn the heir of things that might destroy their business or their relationship...

 

[Pasifika]

That's hypothetical (if, then).
Stick with reality - God HAS shown to everyone what's needed.

And this is why some don't understand it..Romans 1:19

 

[Pasifika]

That's hypothetical (if, then).
Stick with reality - God HAS shown to everyone what's needed.

And this is why some don't understand it..Romans 1:19

 

[Evmur]

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:12, 15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can take the position I’m just a servant of sin I have no choice or we can take the position Jesus offers in the gospel and be set free

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free….. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 36‬ ‭

if a Christian thinks they have no choice in doing what’s right or wrong there’s a misunderstanding

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1-2, 12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to walk after the spirit of life promising no condemnation is this

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

to walk after the flesh and die is this

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16-17, 19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

adam was free made the wrong choice brought corruption to our nature through improper knowledge not meant for mankind . Jesus sets us free through the gospel the correct knowledge of God meant for mankind that gives life and washes away the improper knowledge of God

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The person who responds “ I don’t have a choice I’m gonna choose death “ need to hear the gospel so God can change thier will from slave to freeman

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty;

only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh,

but by love serve one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭

“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

We can’t be Christian’s and children of God yet still say the devil rules our lives as an excuse not to repent and change our ways

“For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Jesus sets sinners free from sins dominion and rule over them but they have to come to him his way by hearing his word and believing what he’s teaching as well as his death and resurrection that’s what changes our Will from sin to righteousness and life

Adam was FREE he was not in bondage to sin, he was not a slave.

We are not free, we are in bondage, slaves to sin and death. Why won't you learn this?

Jesus our Lord has set us FREE once more all praise and glory to Him. But you pipe up "oh no my Lord, we were already free, there was never any need for You to go to the cross and take away our sin and our death. We could have stopped sinning of our own freewill. Just teach us and we will obey You [like the Jews did] we have the freewill to choose and decide ...
... surely You shoulda have stayed in heaven"

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

@Everlasting-Grace

Not going to church does not mean forsaking fellowship.
People meet in homes and other places, plus it does not state I refuse to go to church, maybe he is the process of finding a new church.

Who are you to make these judgements really? sigh.

My freind
he was asked about why he did not go to church. He gave me a sarcastic answer then you jumped in with you face and a mocking response
I meet in peoples homes also it’s called my church. It is part of a larger city church we do meet on Sundays. It is non denominational
if he was in between or if he was in home church he would have said so. Instead of the answer he gave
So back off and stop trying to excuse what you did there is no excuse for that behavior

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You either slave to Sin or slave to Righteousness. If you reject the freedom that is in Christ, then you're still slave to sin. simple as that..

Have no idea what this is in response to. You still were proven to be in error in your thinking that slaves would automatically leave

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

And this is why some don't understand it..Romans 1:19

Yes you do not understand. That has been established

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Adam was FREE he was not in bondage to sin, he was not a slave.

We are not free, we are in bondage, slaves to sin and death. Why won't you learn this?

Jesus our Lord has set us FREE once more all praise and glory to Him. But you pipe up "oh no my Lord, we were already free, there was never any need for You to go to the cross and take away our sin and our death. We could have stopped sinning of our own freewill. Just teach us and we will obey You [like the Jews did] we have the freewill to choose and decide ...
... surely You shoulda have stayed in heaven"

“Adam was FREE he was not in bondage to sin, he was not a slave.

We are not free, we are in bondage, slaves to sin and death. Why won't you learn this?”

because I believe the gospel

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. ….If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t want to go back to satans lies and trap telling me I don’t have choice to do good I have to follow his ways instead . It’s a lie freedom comes when we acknolwedge the truth

“in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

christians used to be in that group but they heard and believed the gospel and began to follow the truth

“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,

but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin,


ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:14-18‬ ‭

servants of God aren’t enslaved by him they are made free like Jesus was on earth free to be tempted by the devil but choose Gods Will instead. Just like Adam was made free to choose , that’s what the gospel , dying with Jesus and being born again of his spirit , ect us all about setting us free from the dominion of Satan who makes all mankind a slave to his Will

brother if you don’t have a choice when temptation comes to choose the good something isn’t right . We can’t follow Adam who was free made a choice to disobey God when tempted. We have to be like Jesus and resist the devil when he tenors us offering evil ideas and thoughts this is a choice we make . The power to be set free and begin standing firm against the devil is here it’s always been here and will be here

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can’t keep saying we’re just slaves to the devil we have to begin hearing the truth and being set free and empowered to follow Gods ways rather than the devils which is always the other option on this world

don’t eat the fruit you’ll die for certain v go ahead it will make you as gods you won’t die

God doesn’t change he changes us

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. ( I have set before you )

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( life )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.” ( and death )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

choose life that Gods word offers us all is the message of the gospel

“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now they know what they did wrong in rejecting and crucifying Christ ( read peters whole sermon) and they know what to do to receive the promise of God to all people of all nations. They now because they heard Gods word have a choice to choose life or they also like Adam are free to eat from any tree of knowledge in the world

could eat from Islam or Buddhism eat from atheism science and logic humanism ect or I can eat from the tree of life the gospel of the lord he isn’t forcing us he’s offering us a choice to be saved rather than perish

to insist you we don’t have a choice nullifies the redemptive work of the gospel and power it holds to change corrupt minds and wills to those of Gods children . If we aren’t free there’s a problem or it hasn’t been enough time to hear it

 

[Evmur]

“Adam was FREE he was not in bondage to sin, he was not a slave.

We are not free, we are in bondage, slaves to sin and death. Why won't you learn this?”

because I believe the gospel

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. ….If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t want to go back to satans lies and trap telling me I don’t have choice to do good I have to follow his ways instead . It’s a lie freedom comes when we acknolwedge the truth

“in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

christians used to be in that group but they heard and believed the gospel and began to follow the truth

“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,

but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin,


ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:14-18‬ ‭

servants of God aren’t enslaved by him they are made free like Jesus was on earth free to be tempted by the devil but choose Gods Will instead. Just like Adam was made free to choose , that’s what the gospel , dying with Jesus and being born again of his spirit , ect us all about setting us free from the dominion of Satan who makes all mankind a slave to his Will

brother if you don’t have a choice when temptation comes to choose the good something isn’t right . We can’t follow Adam who was free made a choice to disobey God when tempted. We have to be like Jesus and resist the devil when he tenors us offering evil ideas and thoughts this is a choice we make . The power to be set free and begin standing firm against the devil is here it’s always been here and will be here

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can’t keep saying we’re just slaves to the devil we have to begin hearing the truth and being set free and empowered to follow Gods ways rather than the devils which is always the other option on this world

don’t eat the fruit you’ll die for certain v go ahead it will make you as gods you won’t die

God doesn’t change he changes us

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. ( I have set before you )

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( life )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.” ( and death )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

choose life that Gods word offers us all is the message of the gospel

“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now they know what they did wrong in rejecting and crucifying Christ ( read peters whole sermon) and they know what to do to receive the promise of God to all people of all nations. They now because they heard Gods word have a choice to choose life or they also like Adam are free to eat from any tree of knowledge in the world

could eat from Islam or Buddhism eat from atheism science and logic humanism ect or I can eat from the tree of life the gospel of the lord he isn’t forcing us he’s offering us a choice to be saved rather than perish

to insist you we don’t have a choice nullifies the redemptive work of the gospel and power it holds to change corrupt minds and wills to those of Gods children . If we aren’t free there’s a problem or it hasn’t been enough time to hear it

useless to argue with a mental block ... I still esteem you as a brother.

 

[Pasifika]

Have no idea what this is in response to. You still were proven to be in error in your thinking that slaves would automatically leave

read the NT..

 

[Pasifika]

Yes you do not understand. That has been established

Thank you "Grace".

 

[Pilgrimshope]

useless to argue with a mental block ... I still esteem you as a brother.

Alright brother…. Did you choose to write this ? Or did someone force your hand ?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

read the NT..

You need to do this yourself.

I have read it many times over for 40 years. I also have read the OT..

Again, you were shown to be in error. You could show some humility and confess your error. or continue to prove your pride.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Thank you "Grace".

Yes, I am eternally grateful for his eternal grace that he has offered me, and I have received.. in joy

 

[Jimbone]

Thats an excellent point. I can't think of a good rebuttal to it right now. But I promise if I do i'll get back to you. What is preventing me from accepting the explanation though is that IF it truly is the case that these Corinthians were chosen by God, before they had done good or evil before the foundation of the world, then WHY are there so many warning passages all over the Bible about falling away from the faith? Take for example in the book you quoted: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Why does Paul warn the Corinthians who were chosen and are guaranteed salvation to be careful to not live this way or they will NOT inherit the kingdom?

If you could explain to me the warning passages, you have peaked my interest for sure

I believe those warnings and encouragements are how we will feel when the Spirit is guiding us, they are for those who are false converts to keep pointing them the right way. While we can sit here and discuss these things like we grasp them, we really don't. How does our choice work within a sovereign God's will to bring about His perfect plan? We can't grasp that. not really. Same with eternity, God's power, His mercy, His love, and that doesn't even touch His justice. We can sit here and debate these things our whole lives, but we'll never really grasp any of it. I think that His word to us does everything that can be done to point us the right way. If we aren't doing these things we should be, and when we are in Him in truth, this is the direction of truth. Not one scripture tells us strait forward that we can be saved and then lose it. Not 1, not even the Heb. "tasted" verse, yet there are MANY that tell me that it can't be taken. If they walk away from Him, they were never truly of Him. Just how He's lead me to see it.

 

[Hakawaka]

I believe those warnings and encouragements are how we will feel when the Spirit is guiding us, they are for those who are false converts to keep pointing them the right way. While we can sit here and discuss these things like we grasp them, we really don't. How does our choice work within a sovereign God's will to bring about His perfect plan? We can't grasp that. not really. Same with eternity, God's power, His mercy, His love, and that doesn't even touch His justice. We can sit here and debate these things our whole lives, but we'll never really grasp any of it. I think that His word to us does everything that can be done to point us the right way. If we aren't doing these things we should be, and when we are in Him in truth, this is the direction of truth. Not one scripture tells us strait forward that we can be saved and then lose it. Not 1, not even the Heb. "tasted" verse, yet there are MANY that tell me that it can't be taken. If they walk away from Him, they were never truly of Him. Just how He's lead me to see it.

Its not as mysterious at all if you take off the calvinist lenses on sovereignity.

Why would the verses be there to guide false converts? God doesn't want to save the false converts in the calvinist system, He only saves the elect, who cannot be false converts.

We can sit here and debate all day, which I plan on doing, hahaha. And I believe we can understand it, its very simple in fact. God is sovereign and has created all this, gave His son to the world, not to condemn the world but to save the world, and whosoever wills can come take the water of life freely. God has mercy on whom He has mercy and hardens whom He hardens? Yes:
Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Its no mystery, this has been revealed to us!