Did Those Who Were Never of The Elect Ever Have Free-Will?
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From Romans 6:16-18 ~ Do you not know that you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
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Thats an excellent point. I can't think of a good rebuttal to it right now. But I promise if I do i'll get back to you. What is preventing me from accepting the explanation though is that IF it truly is the case that these Corinthians were chosen by God, before they had done good or evil before the foundation of the world, then WHY are there so many warning passages all over the Bible about falling away from the faith? Take for example in the book you quoted: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Why does Paul warn the Corinthians who were chosen and are guaranteed salvation to be careful to not live this way or they will NOT inherit the kingdom?
If you could explain to me the warning passages, you have peaked my interest for sure
If you could explain to me the warning passages, you have peaked my interest for sure
This is a pretty good response to the verse in my opinion: http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Paul/1Cor1_30.html
Seems to me this contradicts His word in John 8 where Jesus tells us that when we are in sin we are slaves to sin, then in Romans 6 Paul draws that out to we are slaves of sin or slaves of obedience, this idea that we EVER have this kind of "neutral" free will isn't found in scripture. We have choice obviously, I have always believe this and He tells us to choose. The fact of the matter is that choice is ALWAYS guided and governed by whatever our nature is, be it sin or Him. I do honestly understand what you're saying here, and the way you mean it I do agree with, I just have this problem with calling something free that He clearly tells us is not free. We have a will, we have a choice, but that choice is ALWAYS going to coincide with our nature, of the flesh or of the Spirit. It's never "free".
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“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17
“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
Romans 7:21-23 KJV
“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
Romans 6:12, 15-18 KJV
We can take the position I’m just a servant of sin I have no choice or we can take the position Jesus offers in the gospel and be set free
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free….. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
John 8:31-32, 36
if a Christian thinks they have no choice in doing what’s right or wrong there’s a misunderstanding
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Romans 8:1-2, 12-13 KJV
to walk after the spirit of life promising no condemnation is this
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24
to walk after the flesh and die is this
“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Galatians 5:16-17, 19-21 KJV
adam was free made the wrong choice brought corruption to our nature through improper knowledge not meant for mankind . Jesus sets us free through the gospel the correct knowledge of God meant for mankind that gives life and washes away the improper knowledge of God
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
The person who responds “ I don’t have a choice I’m gonna choose death “ need to hear the gospel so God can change thier will from slave to freeman
“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty;
only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh,
but by love serve one another.”
Galatians 5:13
“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
Galatians 5:13 NIV
We can’t be Christian’s and children of God yet still say the devil rules our lives as an excuse not to repent and change our ways
“For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another.”
Galatians 5:13 ASV
Jesus sets sinners free from sins dominion and rule over them but they have to come to him his way by hearing his word and believing what he’s teaching as well as his death and resurrection that’s what changes our Will from sin to righteousness and life
Genesis 2:16-17
“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
Romans 7:21-23 KJV
“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
Romans 6:12, 15-18 KJV
We can take the position I’m just a servant of sin I have no choice or we can take the position Jesus offers in the gospel and be set free
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free….. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
John 8:31-32, 36
if a Christian thinks they have no choice in doing what’s right or wrong there’s a misunderstanding
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Romans 8:1-2, 12-13 KJV
to walk after the spirit of life promising no condemnation is this
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24
to walk after the flesh and die is this
“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Galatians 5:16-17, 19-21 KJV
adam was free made the wrong choice brought corruption to our nature through improper knowledge not meant for mankind . Jesus sets us free through the gospel the correct knowledge of God meant for mankind that gives life and washes away the improper knowledge of God
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
The person who responds “ I don’t have a choice I’m gonna choose death “ need to hear the gospel so God can change thier will from slave to freeman
“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty;
only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh,
but by love serve one another.”
Galatians 5:13
“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
Galatians 5:13 NIV
We can’t be Christian’s and children of God yet still say the devil rules our lives as an excuse not to repent and change our ways
“For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another.”
Galatians 5:13 ASV
Jesus sets sinners free from sins dominion and rule over them but they have to come to him his way by hearing his word and believing what he’s teaching as well as his death and resurrection that’s what changes our Will from sin to righteousness and life
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Hi Jimbone, actually, I agree with you (I think that I must be looking at all of this from a different POV than you are).
For instance, I don't believe that any of us, save our progenitors, have ever had a "neutral", free will. We choose what we want, according to that which we desire most. Unfortunately, all of us are by nature, as children of wrath, so our desires lead us towards that which is fallen/worldly/sinful, never towards Him, just like the Bible tells us .. e.g. Romans 3:10-12; Ephesians 2:1-3 (unless He does a MIGHTY work in us to change us/change what we desire, that is .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; Ephesians 2:4-5, 10; 2 Corinthians 5:17).
I think that I'd like to take some time to think through all of this again, and I'll get back to you after I do (Dv).
God bless you!!
--David
For instance, I don't believe that any of us, save our progenitors, have ever had a "neutral", free will. We choose what we want, according to that which we desire most. Unfortunately, all of us are by nature, as children of wrath, so our desires lead us towards that which is fallen/worldly/sinful, never towards Him, just like the Bible tells us .. e.g. Romans 3:10-12; Ephesians 2:1-3 (unless He does a MIGHTY work in us to change us/change what we desire, that is .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; Ephesians 2:4-5, 10; 2 Corinthians 5:17).
I think that I'd like to take some time to think through all of this again, and I'll get back to you after I do (Dv).
God bless you!!
--David
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@Everlasting-Grace
Not going to church does not mean forsaking fellowship.
People meet in homes and other places, plus it does not state I refuse to go to church, maybe he is the process of finding a new church.
Who are you to make these judgements really? sigh.
Not going to church does not mean forsaking fellowship.
People meet in homes and other places, plus it does not state I refuse to go to church, maybe he is the process of finding a new church.
Who are you to make these judgements really? sigh.