Discussion on Faith

[wanderer6059]

If we get Jesus by faith then we can't get faith by Jesus. Likewise if we get faith by Jesus we can't get Jesus by faith.

So it can't be both, and likewise it can't be neither, but faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God is only revealed by the Spirit of Truth that comes only by the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you (See Matthew 10:20)

we get the HS by faith we get from and in Jesus, then the HS gives us Jesus(the word understood) through faith.

 

[garee]

As has been pointed out faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17). When someone speaks God's Word to us, do we "hear" to the point where that Word of God reaches our hearts where God brings increase?

Or when someone speaks God's Word to us, do we "hear" and then restrain the Word from reaching our hearts as those spoken of in Rom 1:18 (those who hold the truth [restrain the truth] in unrighteousness)?

Amen, I would offer.

The faith of God comes by hearing God. His faith must be exercised (worked) or mixed acknowledging ownership if we do not harden our hearts in unbelief (no faith) then we have entered his Sabbath(rest). Those who do harden their hearts as if they were the source of His faith, do restrain His truth in unrighteousness in the end blaspheme the authority of His name by which we are called heavenward

Christians will not be found with any righteousness of their own.But will be found with the righteousness of Christ that works in us (mixing faith) to both will and perform his good pleasure as a imputed righteousness
​

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Then if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God then who made the hearing ear and the seeing eye?

(see Proverbs 20:12)

Proverbs 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

What is your point?

Are you saying that those who do not come to faith are not given the ear to hear?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Part 1 Article "Faith of God"

Without faith it’s impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6), so our relationship with the Lord is dependent on it. Faith is what brings the things God has provided for us from the spiritual realm into the physical realm (Heb. 11:1). Our faith is the victory that enables us to overcome the world (1 John 5:4). Everything the Lord does for us is accessed through faith.


Yet there is much confusion about faith today just as there has always been. It’s like having a computer and knowing its potential but not having a clue how to use it. Many of us know how frustrating that is.

The Bible is our manual with detailed instructions, but just like in the natural, few people take the time to really study it. They are impatient and want to do it on their own. They may reach some level of success, but to really be proficient, they have to read the book.

One of the areas about faith that gives people the most trouble is the concept that we have to acquire more faith and that some people have much faith, while others have virtually none. We spend a lot of effort, like a dog chasing its tail, trying to get something we already have. Every born-again Christian already has the same quality and quantity of faith that Jesus has. That’s awesome!

In Ephesians 2:8, Paul says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” It’s God’s grace that saves us, but not His grace alone. If that were so, then everyone would be saved because God’s grace has come to all men (Tit. 2:11).

We have to put faith in God’s grace, but the faith that we use isn’t our own human faith. This verse says that faith is the gift of God.

There is a human faith that is inherent within every human being, and there is a supernatural faith of God that only comes to those who receive the good news.

Human faith can only believe what it can see, taste, hear, smell, or feel; it’s limited to the five senses. Using natural human faith, we can sit in a chair we’ve never sat in and believe it will hold us up. We fly in airplanes when we don’t fully understand how they work, and we don’t know the pilot, but we trust that everything will be okay. That takes human faith, which God gave to every person.


What if I asked you to sit in a chair you couldn’t see? Or what if the chair was missing one of its legs and was falling over? You wouldn’t sit in a chair like that with human faith.


Would you fly in a plane if you could see that the engine was falling off or the tires were flat? Your senses would forbid it.

Yet when it comes to God, we have to believe things that we cannot see. You haven’t seen God or the devil. You haven’t seen heaven or hell. You haven’t seen sin; therefore, you wouldn’t know what you would look like if your sins were taken away. However, you have to believe in all these things to be born again. How can you believe in things you can’t see? The answer is that you can’t believe in invisible things with human faith. You need God’s supernatural faith.


Romans 4:17 says, “God … calleth those things which be not as though they were.” God’s faith goes beyond sight. God’s faith operates supernaturally, beyond the limitations of our natural faith.


The context of this verse from Romans speaks about how God supernaturally blessed Abram and Sarai with a child in their old age. Abram was 100 and Sarai was 91 when Isaac was born. The year before Isaac’s birth, when Abram still did not have a child by his wife, God told them the child was coming, and He changed Abram’s name to Abraham and Sarai’s name to Sarah.

Abram meant “high father,” but Abraham means, “to be populous, father of a multitude.” God changed Abram’s name and called him the father of a multitude before it came to pass. Romans 4:17 explains this action by saying that “God calleth those things which be not as though they were.”


When the Lord created the universe, Genesis 1:3 tells us that He created light on the first day but didn’t create the sun, moon, and stars until the fourth day of creation (Gen. 1:14-19). The Lord called light into being first and four days later created a source for the light to come from. That’s not the way natural man does things. We are limited, but God calls things that are not as though they were. That’s supernatural.


That’s the kind of faith we have to use to receive salvation. We have to believe in God, whom we have not seen, and believe that our sins are forgiven, which we cannot prove by natural means. It takes God’s supernatural faith to receive salvation. Where do we get it from? We get it from God’s Word.


Romans 10:17 says, “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” We access God’s faith through His Word.


When we hear God’s Word, the Holy Spirit empowers it, and if we receive the truth, God’s supernatural faith enters us. We were so destitute that we couldn’t even believe the good news on our own. God had to make His kind of faith available to us so that we could believe in Him and receive His salvation. We were saved by using God’s supernatural faith to receive His grace.


Once we receive God’s supernatural faith at salvation, it doesn’t leave us. Galatians 5:22-23 says, “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, FAITH, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law” (emphasis mine). Faith becomes a permanent part of our born-again spirits.


We sometimes use the God kind of faith that’s present in our spirits and other times we don’t. The truth is, it is always present. There is no lack of faith within any true Christian. There is just a lack of knowing and using what God has already given us.

My thought when I read this was that we grow in faith, so it isn't quite accurate, in my opinion, to say everyone has the same exact amount of faith. I have more trust, a stronger trust, than when I first met God. He has grown it, by the things I have gone through and experienced with Him. We learn the obedience of trust by the things we suffer/experience. We learn to keep trusting and stop stumbling so much because of something we find ourselves in. He has shown me areas where even though I would say, I trust You completely, I was proving that I didn't. It's a race of trust, growing trust, and keeping our trust to the end, in my opinion.

 

[Honey_Bee]

I am not sure what you are saying.

What comes first to our lifes, faith or salvation?

I believe that when we have Jesus we are given all things pertaining to life and Godliness.

Her statement is true, and right.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ

There is a doctrine of God the Father that teaches us about our holy Spirit, as the one new man.

Not to be confused with the personage of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost. This doctrine of godliness teaches us what we possess in Christ with our "spirit of holiness" according to the gift of life... faith is a fruit of the Spirit according to kjv. When we hear the gospel of our salvation, and we believe, the gift of righteousness is upon us, and we receive the work & faith of Christ as our own.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth)

We serve God with our Spirit, and with the spirit that is of God we can think on the fruit, work and blessings of God and be comforted in our hearts,

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord"

 

[garee]

Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread. Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? Mathew 16:7-9

The disciples not mixing faith in what they did hear missed the spiritual understanding hid in that parable and rather than asking the Son of man, Jesus, the disciples reasoned after the philosophies of men, after the oral traditions thereof. And did not reason by the faith that comes from hearing God. But rather having their faith in that which is seen. Every time they did not understanding the spiritual meaning hid in parables that would be the order…"Who is the Greatest" showing they were not mixing the exclusive faith that comes from hearing God as the source of that faith .

They simply were not reasoning with the scriptures but rather amongst their own self as does all the Pagan(carnal) religions of this world .

I think for instant when Christ declared to the disciples; “you of little faith” .The why do you reason among yourselves was because they chose another authority to reason by, but not by the law of faith but rather by the theories of men another Christ another gospel

That faith as a work was the “mutual faith of Christ” that works in all of His children as described in Philippians 2 a labor of his love that works both to will and do His good pleasure as when we are yoked with him.. he alone is our righteousness.

In Romans 1, when the Spirit of Christ worked in Paul as a gift of the Holy Spirit, it, that faith moved Paul to impart the hearing of faith giving the hearing of the word of God to another as a twofold gift.
I would suggest no such thing as self-edification in that way. But rather it was established in both, the one brings the word of God, and the other as a gift was given what the Spirit says to the churches .
They both or all were comforted by the comforter the Holy Spirit through the mutual faith of God .

We can plant the seed or water the incorruptible seed with the cleansing water of the word but only Christ provides the growth. He as always must increase as we decrease.

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith(the free gift of God) is spoken of throughout the whole world. For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.Romans 1:8-12

That mutual faith that works in all, is the faith of Christ according to the labor of His love. It is not of us if it is of God not seen.
​

 

[Nehemiah6]

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith...

Only those who have been saved by grace through faith can produce the fruit of the Spirit. But in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, sinners must BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. This is called "saving faith" and it cannot be the same as the fruit of the Spirit. Saving faith comes by hearing the Gospel (which is the POWER of God unto salvation) and being convicted and convinced by the Holy Spirit.

And we should not be confusing "saving faith" with either the fruit of the Spirit, or the spiritual gift of faith as mentioned in 1 Cor 12.

The MAJOR ERROR of the OP is to call saving faith SUPERNATURAL FAITH -- a "gift" of faith given by God. And then to compound the error by calling it "the faith of God" and "the faith of Christ". God does not need faith in Himself since He is the self-existent I AM. But if God were giving the gift of saving faith to sinners, He would be giving it to ALL HUMANITY. Why? Because Christ died for all, and God desires all men to repent, believe, and be saved. But since all men are not saved, and God does not elect some for salvation and others for damnation, then saving faith has a different cause. FAITH COMETH BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD (Rom 10:17).

 

[garee]

The MAJOR ERROR of the OP is to call saving faithSUPERNATURAL FAITH -- a "gift" of faith given by God. And then tocompound the error by calling it "the faith of God" and "thefaith of Christ". God does not need faith in Himself since He is theself-existent I AM.

I understand that a little differently.

The supernatural self-existent I AM is of one mind andalways does whatsoever His soul pleases.(Job 23) As a Faithful Creator he reasoned in His own heart just exactly what it was that He desired to form from nothing.Having the faith in himself that it would appear he worked by declaring; “Let there be” and there was. He then declared it was good, giving the seal of approval of him not seen .

I would offer that without the faith that comes from hearingGod(God's faith) as that which does workin us... who do believe by and through it, no man could please him. They would have nothing to hear in order to believe other than the imaginationof their own heart . God has faith, plenty of it.

For what if some did not believe? shall theirunbelief (no faith) make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God betrue, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justifiedin thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Romans 3:3-4

To effect is to work, faith without works is dead. It wouldbe like God desiring to create something out of nothing and saying; "let there be".... but nothing would form

But if God were giving the gift of saving faith to sinners, He would be giving it to ALL HUMANITY. Why? Because Christ died for all, and God desires all men to repent, believe, and be saved. But since all men are not saved, and God does not elect some for salvation and others for damnation, then saving faith has a different cause. FAITH COMETH BY HEARING,AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD (Rom 10:17)

.

As many as the Father gives the Son they alone will come, not oneless, or one more. For no man can come unless the father from heaven draw them.

Romans8:14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they arethe sons of God.

This is the work of God, that we believe on him whom thefather has sent not the work of the imaginations of our own deceitful hearts. Its all in respect tothe many. Not all as in every personborn (universalism) It is the work ofGod in us by which we can believe Him not seen

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; andhim that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.John 6

Matthew20:28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto,but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that heshould give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.John 6

 

[Lewiz]

Here's a video of wommack in his own words.

[video=youtube;naU6YBh0vpk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naU6YBh0vpk[/video]

 

[UnderGrace]

I agree "saving faith" is not a gift of God.

It is very important to make this distinction for all the reasons you have outlined in your post.

Only those who have been saved by grace through faith can produce the fruit of the Spirit. But in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, sinners must BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. This is called "saving faith" and it cannot be the same as the fruit of the Spirit. Saving faith comes by hearing the Gospel (which is the POWER of God unto salvation) and being convicted and convinced by the Holy Spirit.

And we should not be confusing "saving faith" with either the fruit of the Spirit, or the spiritual gift of faith as mentioned in 1 Cor 12.

The MAJOR ERROR of the OP is to call saving faith SUPERNATURAL FAITH -- a "gift" of faith given by God. And then to compound the error by calling it "the faith of God" and "the faith of Christ". God does not need faith in Himself since He is the self-existent I AM. But if God were giving the gift of saving faith to sinners, He would be giving it to ALL HUMANITY. Why? Because Christ died for all, and God desires all men to repent, believe, and be saved. But since all men are not saved, and God does not elect some for salvation and others for damnation, then saving faith has a different cause. FAITH COMETH BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD (Rom 10:17).

 

[joaniemarie]

How do we get Jesus?

I don't worry about what came first.... "the chicken or the egg". When I heard the GOOD NEWS I accepted Jesus. He is the ONLY Way... the ONLY Truth and the ONLY Life.

Why do people worry about this? If today you hear His voice... harden not your heart. Is Jesus calling you? Go to Him! The Bible says - you who are thirsty COME.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([SUP][a][/SUP]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Only those who have been saved by grace through faith can produce the fruit of the Spirit.

We do not produce the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit is produced in us by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as we abide in Him (John 15). Others see His fruit in us as we hold it out to them ... i.e. share His love, His joy, His peace, His long-suffering, etc., etc.

And btw, in agreement that fruit of the Spirit faith (Gal 5:22-23) and manifestation faith (1 Cor 12:9) not the same as the measure of faith (Rom 12:3) given to every man.

Only those who are born again will have fruit of the Spirit / manifestation faith in their lives.

 

[joaniemarie]

My thought when I read this was that we grow in faith, so it isn't quite accurate, in my opinion, to say everyone has the same exact amount of faith. I have more trust, a stronger trust, than when I first met God. He has grown it, by the things I have gone through and experienced with Him. We learn the obedience of trust by the things we suffer/experience. We learn to keep trusting and stop stumbling so much because of something we find ourselves in. He has shown me areas where even though I would say, I trust You completely, I was proving that I didn't. It's a race of trust, growing trust, and keeping our trust to the end, in my opinion.

As far as agreeing with every single word of another person that is not possible IMO. I believe like you do that we learn as we go. That is part of being a limited human being. I wish the truth got downloaded in us like a computer but it takes a walking it out by faith.

It would have been much nicer to not have made the stupid mistakes along the way but it happened and I move on. (this one thing I do... forgetting those things which are behind and pressing on) Phil.3

[SUP]10 [/SUP][For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[SUP][a][/SUP]which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]
[SUP]

11 [/SUP]That if possible I may attain to the [[SUP][b][/SUP]spiritual and moral] resurrection [that lifts me] out from among the dead [even while in the body].
[SUP]

12 [/SUP]Not that I have now attained [this ideal], or have already been made perfect, but I press on to lay hold of (grasp) and make my own, that for which Christ Jesus (the Messiah) has laid hold of me and made me His own.
[SUP]

13 [/SUP]I do not consider, brethren, that I have captured and made it my own [yet]; but one thing I do [it is my one aspiration]: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
[SUP]

14 [/SUP]I press on toward the goal to win the [supreme and heavenly] prize to which God in Christ Jesus is calling us upward.
[SUP]

15 [/SUP]So let those [of us] who are spiritually mature and full-grown have this mind and hold these convictions; and if in any respect you have a different attitude of mind, God will make that clear to you also.
[SUP]

I believe we have the mind of Christ but we don't fully walk in that mind yet but it's there for us none the less to grow into.[/SUP]

The Bible says we have not been given a spirit of fear but of power and love and a sound mind. I don't always walk in my sound mind. But each day I learn about having this mind that is in Christ Jesus.

Each day I believe we come into more agreement with the truth of Christ and are called to walk in Him more each day. I wish we were not creatures of time but thankfully He has not left us alone in this situation.

Jesus being in my day to day I've seen He has also used the situations to show me the truth of His love. He even used the experiences to show His hand working in the impossible situations that have come by no fault of mine OR that I've willingly walked into in my own foolishness.

Lately the biggest successes I've had came from believing in and counting on His love and grace for me. Even when my mind said I didn't deserve it.., my spirit said it's mine because of Jesus so I took it and leaned heavy on it. And sure enough., He loved me and got me through.


I know that the world...the flesh....and the devil are going to throw junk in the way but Jesus said when we are weak, it's then we are strong IN HIM. The Holy Spirit and the Bible keep pointing to Jesus in all these matters.

 

[joaniemarie]

I agree "saving faith" is not a gift of God.

It is very important to make this distinction for all the reasons you have outlined in your post.

Sorry UnderGrace., I'm not sure what you mean when you say ; saving faith is not being a gift of God. I believe faith is a gift from God just like everything we have in salvation is a gift from God.

So tell me what you are saying here since I know you believe salvation is a gift from God.

 

[UnderGrace]

I do not believe scripture supports this, especially "saving faith" that means that God gives "saving faith" to only some since not everyone is saved.

God is not a respecter of persons, therefore why would He choose to give only some "saving faith?"

We hear the Gospel and we believe, we exercise our faith in the truth of what we have heard.... the Gospel message.

I have much more resources on this but it will have to wait to tomorrow.

Sorry UnderGrace., I'm not sure what you mean when you say ; saving faith is not being a gift of God. I believe faith is a gift from God just like everything we have in salvation is a gift from God.

So tell me what you are saying here since I know you believe salvation is a gift from God.

 

[UnderGrace]

Opps of course salvation is a gift, not the faith part, that is the part we have when we have heard the Gospel and choose to believe, then by the grace of God we receive the gift of salvation.

The Gospel of John is all about the call to believe.

Sorry UnderGrace., I'm not sure what you mean when you say ; saving faith is not being a gift of God. I believe faith is a gift from God just like everything we have in salvation is a gift from God.

So tell me what you are saying here since I know you believe salvation is a gift from God.

 

[joaniemarie]

I do not believe scripture supports this, especially "saving faith" that means that God gives "saving faith" to only some since not everyone is saved.

God is not a respecter of persons, therefore why would He choose to give only some "saving faith?"

We hear the Gospel and we believe, we exercise our faith in the truth of what we have heard.... the Gospel message.

I have much more resources on this but it will have to wait to tomorrow.

Thanks for your answer UnderGrace. I'm not getting that from the OP at all. I don't believe in limited atonement either and I don't believe that is being presented here.

I'm not sure exactly how salvation works as far as all the details of it. For instance the question some people go to is; are we born again first so we can accept? OR do we accept and then are born again? I'm not bogged down in that sort of thinking anymore.

That is the chicken or the egg scenario and I'm just not going there.

But I do know that salvation is offered to ALL. Not all will accept BUT the offer is extended to all nevertheless and millions and billions HAVE accepted. The Good News that Jesus saves came to me in 1981 and I accepted Him as my Savior.

IMO lots of people make the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ very hard. Instead of coming to Him as children., man comes thinking he has to know it all and do it all first.

And Christians also make the simplicity of God's unmerited love and favor in their lives hard to receive as well. They also want to know it all and earn it all before believing it is REAL for their lives.

Been there....done that and it doesn't work. It messes the Christian up and distorts the truth.