Dispensationalism...

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Ethan1942

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One BIG advantage of being 80 is, I can see if dispensationalists' prophecies came true!

"Hal Lindsey, author of The Late Great Planet Earth, believed he had unlocked the secrets of this passage in Matthew 24:32-33, suggesting the generation that saw the 1948 rebirth of Israel as a nation—purportedly symbolized by the fig tree—would see the return of Jesus Christ. In what became the world’s best-selling nonfiction book of the 1970s, Lindsey wrote a biblical generation is “something like 40 years” and suggested that “within 40 years or so of 1948, all these things could take place.”
https://charismamag.com/spriritled-...ble-scholar-the-new-date-for-christ-s-return/

I had bought the book, and it has been 74 years since 1948 and I'm still waiting! I also remember being taught that the man of sin, the antiChrist was to be a Jew, of the tribe of Dan. This was taught as described by Pink in the following:

From Arthur W. Pink (1886-1952)
"The Antichrist will be a Jew, though his connections, his governmental position, his sphere of dominion, will by no means confine him to the Israelitish people. It should, however, be pointed out that there is no express declaration of Scripture which says in so many words that this daring Rebel will be "a Jew;" nevertheless, the hints given are so plain, the conclusions which must be drawn from certain statements of Holy Writ are so obvious, and the requirements of the case are so inevitable, that we are forced to believe he must be a Jew...we may add, that it was the common belief among Christians during the first four centuries A.D., that the Antichrist would come from the tribe of Dan. Whether this will be the case or no, we do not know. Gen.49:17, 18 may have ultimate reference to this Son of Perdition. Certainly Dan is the most mysterious of all the twelve tribes."
https://biblehub.com/library/pink/the_antichrist/i_the_antichrist_will_be.htm

Many years later, as I was getting my eyes opened, I obtained the Bible commentary, written in the 17th century by the Puritan Matthew Poole and, was shocked to read where that idea of came from, as seen next:

Matthew Poole (1624-1679) commentary on 2 Thess. 2:3
"...why then should we take the man of sin to be a single man, as the papists do? viz. a Jew of the tribe of Dan, that shall erect his kingdom and temple in Jerusalem, seduce the Jews, continue three years and a half, make great havoc of the church, to be opposed by Enoch and Elias, and is to come a little before the end of the world. Ridiculous!"
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/mpc/2-thessalonians-2.html


In 1957 the Common Market was formed and the agreement signed in Rome. The ten nations of the Common Market was to be the key to the 2nd coming, the 'revived Roman Empire' , but when formed there were not yet 10. So, we sat eagerly awaiting the added nations to make up the ten... and this was based on these Scriptures:

"...the final 10-king (10-horned) revived global Roman Empire. These represent the sequential (and existing) gentile world reigns that oppress Israel. These are the kings (and nations) about which Daniel says, “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people” (Daniel 2:44).
https://www.raptureready.com/2015/0...-of-the-revived-roman-empire-by-wilfred-hahn/

I remember the 10 nations came eventually and then it went past ten nations, but no 2nd coming yet! But dispensationalists do, as dispenationalists do, their predictions are constantly adjusted, just like the SDA had to revise and change when their prediction of the return of Christ passed without coming true.

"If you wonder, ‘How are we to recognize a word that the Lord has not uttered?’ here is the answer: When a word spoken by a prophet in the name of the Lord is not fulfilled and does not come true, it is not a word spoken by the Lord. The prophet has spoken presumptuously; have no fear of him." (Deut 18:21-22, REB)

I take that to mean I should just ignore such foolishness of man-made systems.
 

Beckie

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do the scriptures speak of a person antichrist. out side of the new KJ ?
 

chess-player

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Jul 14, 2022
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I'm not sure of your reading or comprehension skills but I have repeatedly stated that I am not a dispensationist. I'll touch on it once more so as to help you understand... I don't read the Scofield bible, I an not a dispensastionist nor do I follow the teachings of Darby.

Now back to the question I ask you(you rambled on without answering it in your response) ..... Who do you see as fulfilling the Scriptures in Revelation 13 pertaining to the mark the name or the number of the beast prior to the events of ad70? This is a very simple question I'm asking you so if you will please just simply state who it was who you believe received the mark and worshiped the image of the beast and fulfilled those Scriptures,(the Jews,the Romans,the Egyptians ect. whoever it is you believe did this) if you don't know the answer just say so and I/we can move on to tying to find another in the group who sees these thing as fulfilled by ad70 that is better skilled at answering these questions.
So many people posting that I don't remember who said what, so if I said something that has been repeated, please accept my apologies.

No, going back to our discussion. This is my own opinion:
When someone could not prove he had presented his allegiance to Caesar by worshipping Him, he could not purchase or sell goods. Christians who served the Lord were doomed to die of starvation or be fed by compassionate people.
 

iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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So many people posting that I don't remember who said what, so if I said something that has been repeated, please accept my apologies.

No, going back to our discussion. This is my own opinion: When someone could not prove he had presented his allegiance to Caesar by worshipping Him, he could not purchase or sell goods. Christians who served the Lord were doomed to die of starvation or be fed by compassionate people.

That's sort of puzzling where you could have gotten this idea though because of things written both in the Scriptures and historical writings. In Romans 13: 1-7 Paul states that they(Christians) were to see the authority over them(Rome) as ordained by God and to pay their taxes ect.(use Romes money) https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/13.htm Jesus also said in Mark 12 17 when ask if they should pay Caesars taxes that they should https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 12&version=KJV Peter also stated in 1 Peter 2 13-25 that those authorities over them they were suppose to submit to https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter 2&version=KJV

The Jews of of this same time period are well documented by the historian Josephus in Wars 2(contains a period of 69 years leading up to the 1st Jewish revolt) to have refused to worship Caesar or their images ,offer sacrifices to him,put their pagan images in the Temple of God ect. in as much as they went as far as armed revolts against Rome known as the 1st,2nd and 3rd Jewish revolts http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html Not only this but those same Jews who revolted minted their own coins to keep from buying,selling or paying the Temple tax with Rome's money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish_Revolt_coinage Anyway as for the Christians or the non Christian Jews it cannot be said that they worshiped the image of the beast or received it's mark,name ect.
 

Beckie

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In reading Scofield's notes i found this very interesting .

Scofield says: Page 365 of the 1967 edition

2Sa_7:14-15 state the principle of judgment within the family of God. (See Scofield on 1Co_11:31). It is always remedial, not penal Heb_12:5-11.

2Ch 36:16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

One of the fathers of modern dispensationalism again contradicts the Scriptures .
 

Ethan1942

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Jul 23, 2022
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Right behind ya 75 here .. :)
God bless you Beckie! I can see the grace of patience is strong with you, it is my weakest, and I must pull away from threads and the nonsensical replies at times to keep my BP down. ;)
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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I hope you were kidding. I was speaking about covenant Israel of the Old and the NT, not about the present, secular nation that has nothing to do with God.
Ah. So it's just by coincidence that the Jewish people for the past 75 yrs have been emigrating back to the exact Land that they were dispersed from 2000 yrs ago?
The Land God gave to their ancestors, and who has said they would be regathered? ALL just coincidence?

Even miraculously, under staggering odds, win at least 3 wars over those who vow to "push them into the sea", and make all of Israel into the Islamic levant?

I hope YOU are kidding!
 

Beckie

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God bless you Beckie! I can see the grace of patience is strong with you, it is my weakest, and I must pull away from threads and the nonsensical replies at times to keep my BP down. ;)
Sadly no my patience disappears every so often, see below... Sticking to posting Scofield's notes using the the Scriptures to point out the heresies helps . My sister loves the Lord , She simply accepted what we were taught , our parents would not lie to us about Scripture ! She would not dare to question God. As much as another can know some ones heart she loves the Lord. I hope to see, my sister, in the others posting here. Some of us will always need milk and just dont understand how to hunt for the meat.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/shame-on-me.206385/
 

Ethan1942

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Ah. So it's just by coincidence that the Jewish people for the past 75 yrs have been emigrating back to the exact Land that they were dispersed from 2000 yrs ago?
The Land God gave to their ancestors, and who has said they would be regathered? ALL just coincidence?

Even miraculously, under staggering odds, win at least 3 wars over those who vow to "push them into the sea", and make all of Israel into the Islamic levant?

I hope YOU are kidding!
How do you know those people calling themselves "the Jewish people" today have any true connection to those Judeans in the Bible? Their religion does not match that of the Old Covenant. Their culture today does not match that of biblical times. The DNA evidence is very shaky. I know my family tree and have DNA reports from two different sources and they do not agree and I keep getting updates that changes it. I can only trace my family tree to a maximum of 450 years in the past, even with modern records. Can these self-proclaimed Jews of today demonstrate that they are really descendants of Biblical Judeans and claim from what tribe each is descended? I wonder if their proclaimed historical status is as baseless as the 6-pointed star of David which never existed as a symbol of Israel in the times of the Bible, or for centuries thereafter. If dispensationalists are so sure the State created by the UN is fulfillment of Bible prophecy, why don't all Jews believe that? An interesting article by Torah Jews:

https://www.truetorahjews.org/mission

About that "Star of David" see: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Star-of-David

It is amusing to see Hollywood's biblical movies showing the Star of David in their depictions of biblical times.
 

Beckie

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Feb 15, 2022
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Ah. So it's just by coincidence that the Jewish people for the past 75 yrs have been emigrating back to the exact Land that they were dispersed from 2000 yrs ago?
The Land God gave to their ancestors, and who has said they would be regathered? ALL just coincidence?

Even miraculously, under staggering odds, win at least 3 wars over those who vow to "push them into the sea", and make all of Israel into the Islamic levant?

I hope YOU are kidding!
There are still more Jewish people in the USA then Israel .
 

Beckie

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Feb 15, 2022
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According to Scripture the Jewish religion is anti Christ . They need Jesus the same as the rest of the world .
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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How do you know those people calling themselves "the Jewish people" today have any true connection to those Judeans in the Bible?
Here ya go folks.

The seedy underbelly of antisemitism in a nutshell.

The "I can't explain how the Jews are back in the exact Land they were 2000 yrs ago, so I'll say they're not really Jews"

"Or at least not really descendants of the Jews from Scripture"

This is the mentality that has caused so many persecutions for the Jews. From pogroms to the Holocaust.

Some of Hitler's own officials used Martin Luther's hateful writings as justification of their crimes.


It's disgusting and worse, anti Christian.

To be absolutely clear, as I've said many times before, most of the Jews in Israel today are either extreme pharisees, like the Hassidim, or flat out agnostic/atheist. But they ARE Jews. Regathered by God for the remnant that will call out to Him, and look on Him whom they pierced.

There is, and has been, and will be judgement on the Jews, BUT, YOU don't want any part of being the instrument of that judgement.

It won't end well for you.
 

Ethan1942

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Jul 23, 2022
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Here ya go folks.

The seedy underbelly of antisemitism in a nutshell.

The "I can't explain how the Jews are back in the exact Land they were 2000 yrs ago, so I'll say they're not really Jews"

"Or at least not really descendants of the Jews from Scripture"

This is the mentality that has caused so many persecutions for the Jews. From pogroms to the Holocaust.

Some of Hitler's own officials used Martin Luther's hateful writings as justification of their crimes.


It's disgusting and worse, anti Christian.

To be absolutely clear, as I've said many times before, most of the Jews in Israel today are either extreme pharisees, like the Hassidim, or flat out agnostic/atheist. But they ARE Jews. Regathered by God for the remnant that will call out to Him, and look on Him whom they pierced.

There is, and has been, and will be judgement on the Jews, BUT, YOU don't want any part of being the instrument of that judgement.

It won't end well for you.
Yes, oh yes, I'm a big fat racist too! LOL

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." (Rev 2:9, KJV)

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." (Rev 3:9, KJV)

If in the first century there were those claiming to be Jews and were lying, why should I accept those who claim to be Jews today? I notice you did not give any proofs, just idle talk. You wrote "But they ARE Jews", so, give us some proof.
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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Yes, oh yes, I'm a big fat racist too! LOL

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." (Rev 2:9, KJV)

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." (Rev 3:9, KJV)

If in the first century there were those claiming to be Jews and were lying, why should I accept those who claim to be Jews today? I notice you did not give any proofs, just idle talk. You wrote "But they ARE Jews", so, give us some proof.
Perfect!

"They are imposters, they don't belong in the Land! They deserve everything and more, they get from the Palestinians, and the whole world! Can't wait for the whole world to unite and take them out! Maybe all the world's armies can meet them. Right in that Land. Oh, I know a good place to assemble to destroy them! I think it's called Megiddo!"


Prolly don't even realize........
 

Beckie

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The most the historical records were destroyed 70 AD . Man made records do not compare to the record we call God's word. Guess to some folks God misspoke when He had Paul pin this.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God
Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
 

Ethan1942

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Jul 23, 2022
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Perfect!

"They are imposters, they don't belong in the Land! They deserve everything and more, they get from the Palestinians, and the whole world! Can't wait for the whole world to unite and take them out! Maybe all the world's armies can meet them. Right in that Land. Oh, I know a good place to assemble to destroy them! I think it's called Megiddo!"


Prolly don't even realize........
I see you put that reply in quotes. Who said that? It was not me, nor do I think that. Do you ever try to reply with substance to anything, or just call names and label people, or attribute to them what they did not say. I believe that borders on lying. Try doing what you claim, prove that they are actually descendants of the Judeans of Jesus' day.
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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prove that they are actually descendants of the Judeans of Jesus' day.
Silliness on steroids.

But let's say you are right, and they aren't in any way affiliated with the Jews in Scripture. What should be done with them, and the Land they possess?
 

Ethan1942

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I find the "silliness" to be making claims you cannot back up with any facts or proof. Now to your question: the UN created a 2-State solution, Israel accepted it and the Palestinians rejected it. That is reality. The Israelies are Christ rejectors and the Muslims are Christ rejectors. It is the Palestinians/Muslims who as terrorists attack innocent people. It is Israel who is our ally in the Middle east, so I side with Israel in the real world in which we live. I also side with the Republic of China, but I do not find that nation in Bible prophecy either. I know of no quote of the OT in the NT that is applied to or refers to any literal Israel on the land in our day or in the future. As far as I can see, the OT prophets, according to the NT, spoke of the present kingdom of God, the gospel dispensation. I do not see any connection between Bible prophecy and the current UN created State of Israel.
 

chess-player

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In reading Scofield's notes i found this very interesting .

Scofield says: Page 365 of the 1967 edition

2Sa_7:14-15 state the principle of judgment within the family of God. (See Scofield on 1Co_11:31). It is always remedial, not penal Heb_12:5-11.

2Ch 36:16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

One of the fathers of modern dispensationalism again contradicts the Scriptures .
Scofield was a liar
Ah. So it's just by coincidence that the Jewish people for the past 75 yrs have been emigrating back to the exact Land that they were dispersed from 2000 yrs ago?
The Land God gave to their ancestors, and who has said they would be regathered? ALL just coincidence?

Even miraculously, under staggering odds, win at least 3 wars over those who vow to "push them into the sea", and make all of Israel into the Islamic levant?

I hope YOU are kidding!

I don't care who they are, "If you don't have the Spirit of Christ, you DON'T BELONG to Him." (Rom. 8:9b). There is about 1/2% of Jewish believers in Israel today. These, and theses alone are part of God's new covenant community of Messiah (the church). The rest are as lost as the rest of the world who prefer their religion rather than bowing the knee to my Jesus. Think about the next time you talk about godless Israel.


Make sure you put set priorities straight,