Dispensationalism...

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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I find the "silliness" to be making claims you cannot back up with any facts or proof.
So I guess you'd like me to exhume the patriarchs, extract some of their DNA, and have every Israeli line up to see if they are indeed related! Silliness on massive steroids!

Why would ANYONE want to claim to be a Jew? Here is a people that have been insanely persecuted like no other, yet have kept their identity, even though most aren't even observant!

The whole world hates Israel and the Jews. Israel has had more UN resolutions against than the rest of the World combined.
What the heck does that tell you?
I know of no quote of the OT in the NT that is applied to or refers to any literal Israel on the land in our day or in the future
Absurd.
Read the Bible.
Too many to list.
I do not see any connection between Bible prophecy and the current UN created State of Israel.
Just an utter refusal to take Scripture as written, and instead resort to allegory and private interpretations to justify a satanic replacement theology doctrine.
 

chess-player

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God bless you Beckie! I can see the grace of patience is strong with you, it is my weakest, and I must pull away from threads and the nonsensical replies at times to keep my BP down. ;)
Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Think about the next time you talk about godless Israel.

Make sure you put set priorities straight,
Israel is mostly Godless today.

So what? So is America and most of the world today.

Has nothing to do with God regathering them for a divinely appointed time, for the remnant.


Boy, the hate for the fact that Jews ARE back in the Land is palpable. People just don't understand or know what to do with that fact.
please, DON'T be a part of those that curse Israel.
 
Jan 14, 2021
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"they don't belong in the Land!"
Suppose for a moment that the people living there were not actually there by virtue of the promise to Abraham. That doesn't mean that they don't belong there, they just wouldn't belong there by virtue of that promise.

If it's part of God's plan, it belongs there. Pharaoh belonged in power because it was part of God's plan. The whore of Babylon belongs in power because it is part of God's plan. The question isn't about whether the people that reside in a location belong there, it's whether they have a right to claim exclusive possession through a specific interpretation of Abrahamic promises.

But let's say you are right, and they aren't in any way affiliated with the Jews in Scripture. What should be done with them, and the Land they possess?
Nothing aside from recognizing the fact their possession of the land isn't through that promise. You could still think that their violence against Palestine is permissible. You could still support them in whatever way you feel. It just wouldn't be as black and white as you may think it is.
 

Ethan1942

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Jul 23, 2022
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Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?
Hi chess-player, that is an interesting question. What have I written that prompts you to ask me that? I am not SDA. I do not really claim a denominational tag any more. I will say that the First London Confession of Faith revised in 1646 with Appendix best expresses my understanding of the Holy Scriptures. That confession merely states in the Preface, "A confession of faith of seven congregations or churches of Christ in London, which are commonly, but unjustly, called Anabaptists"

When it comes to the understanding of prophecy, I can see ways to understand amil, historic premil and postmil and find those views to be held by many great men of God down through the centuries. I lean to being post-mil as I have posted earlier today.
 

Ethan1942

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So I guess you'd like me to exhume the patriarchs, extract some of their DNA, and have every Israeli line up to see if they are indeed related! Silliness on massive steroids!

Why would ANYONE want to claim to be a Jew? Here is a people that have been insanely persecuted like no other, yet have kept their identity, even though most aren't even observant!

The whole world hates Israel and the Jews. Israel has had more UN resolutions against than the rest of the World combined.
What the heck does that tell you?

Absurd.
Read the Bible.
Too many to list.

Just an utter refusal to take Scripture as written, and instead resort to allegory and private interpretations to justify a satanic replacement theology doctrine.
If you can't answer from the Holy Scriptures and give a solid exposition of the passage, maybe you can quote from the man-made footnotes in a dispensationalist study Bible. Of all the OT prophecies, can you name one that is quoted in the NT that refers to Israel in Palestine in our day or the future? All that I can find refer to the dispensation of the gospel of Jesus Christ beginning in the 1st century.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2Pet 1:20-21, KJV)
I like the NRSV translation here:
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (2Pet 1:20-21, NRSV)

The Holy Spirit is the true author of all of Scripture, so Spirit inspired Scripture must interpret Spirit inspired Scripture.
One must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit to have true understanding of what is written.
The body of Christ has been indwelt by the Spirit from the first, and yet dispensationalism cannot be found until the 19th century.

That makes dispensationalism the product of one's own interpretation, whether it be Darby, Scofield or another!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Over and over, an evil man.
If Scofield was "an evil man" he could not possibly have produced a sound reference Bible which was used by millions of Christian for their edification. Speaking evil of Christian brethren is more evil than anything they might have done: Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: (Eph 4:31)

So looks like there is some malice here also. Just like the Left's malice against Donald Trump.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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If you can't answer from the Holy Scriptures and give a solid exposition of the passage, maybe you can quote from the man-made footnotes in a dispensationalist study Bible. Of all the OT prophecies, can you name one that is quoted in the NT that refers to Israel in Palestine in our day or the future? All that I can find refer to the dispensation of the gospel of Jesus Christ beginning in the 1st century.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2Pet 1:20-21, KJV)
I like the NRSV translation here:
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (2Pet 1:20-21, NRSV)

The Holy Spirit is the true author of all of Scripture, so Spirit inspired Scripture must interpret Spirit inspired Scripture.
One must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit to have true understanding of what is written.
The body of Christ has been indwelt by the Spirit from the first, and yet dispensationalism cannot be found until the 19th century.

That makes dispensationalism the product of one's own interpretation, whether it be Darby, Scofield or another!
If you’re not building an ark…if you’re not sacrificing animals…then you are a dispensationalist to a certain degree…you believe that directions in Gods word are to certain audiences at different time periods throughout the course of human history.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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The Holy Spirit is the true author of all of Scripture, so Spirit inspired Scripture must interpret Spirit inspired Scripture.
One must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit to have true understanding of what is written.
I agree. That's why it's so troubling to see those calling themselves Christians with such disdain and animosity toward the Jews. To such an extent as to come up with the nonsense that the Jews in the Land today aren't really Jews.

Without allegorizing and using YOUR private interpretations, tell us who these guys are?
Revelation 7:
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were [a]sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

In case you didn't know, Armegeddon is actually the valley of Megiddo in Israel.
So without allegorizing or using YOUR private interpretations, tell us WHO these people are gathering to destroy ?

Revelation 16:
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings [g]of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Here God talks about regathering His people the SECOND time. The first being after the Babylonian captivity. The second is ongoing but culminated in May 1948.
CAN'T be Christians being regathered. Because they weren't dispersed the first time. God is very clearly talking about the Jews. Jeremiah and Ezekiel, Hosea, and other Prophets talk about the same regathering.

Isaiah 11:11

New King James Version

11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.

So take off the antisemitic glasses and let the Holy Spirit show you your grave error.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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I agree. That's why it's so troubling to see those calling themselves Christians with such disdain and animosity toward the Jews. To such an extent as to come up with the nonsense that the Jews in the Land today aren't really Jews.

Without allegorizing and using YOUR private interpretations, tell us who these guys are?
Revelation 7:
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were [a]sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

In case you didn't know, Armegeddon is actually the valley of Megiddo in Israel.
So without allegorizing or using YOUR private interpretations, tell us WHO these people are gathering to destroy ?

Revelation 16:
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings [g]of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Here God talks about regathering His people the SECOND time. The first being after the Babylonian captivity. The second is ongoing but culminated in May 1948.
CAN'T be Christians being regathered. Because they weren't dispersed the first time. God is very clearly talking about the Jews. Jeremiah and Ezekiel, Hosea, and other Prophets talk about the same regathering.

Isaiah 11:11

New King James Version

11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.

So take off the antisemitic glasses and let the Holy Spirit show you your grave error.
For a small people group to have such hatred toward them through the years and they are still around…it must be of God.
 

Evmur

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God bless you Beckie! I can see the grace of patience is strong with you, it is my weakest, and I must pull away from threads and the nonsensical replies at times to keep my BP down. ;)
You are not an honest debater. You say "I cannot find a single NT scripture which tells Israel's return"

So sneaky and underhand. Israel was not even dispersed at the time the NT was written.

The OT is chokka whether Amos or Zechariah, Zedekia, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Micah, Jeremiah or Daniel they ALL with one voice say God will bring them home, sometimes qualifying it with "in the latter days"

Not honest to say "I can find no scripture in the NT" that is not an honest way to debate.
 

Evmur

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Scofield was a liar


I don't care who they are, "If you don't have the Spirit of Christ, you DON'T BELONG to Him." (Rom. 8:9b). There is about 1/2% of Jewish believers in Israel today. These, and theses alone are part of God's new covenant community of Messiah (the church). The rest are as lost as the rest of the world who prefer their religion rather than bowing the knee to my Jesus. Think about the next time you talk about godless Israel.

Make sure you put set priorities straight,
Schofield may have been a liar, and Darby crooked.

Dispensations, the future return of God to His ancient people and the 1000 year reign are the doctrines believed by the primitive church. Even Justyn Martyr who was fiercely anti Jew believed it.

Right up until the 4th century the church believed these things until they did a dirty deal with the Romans who also aspired to reign for a 1, 000 years.

It was 4th century Augustine who expounded the 2 cities who is the architect of amillinialism. It is a rogue doctrine and has done terrible harm to other doctrines.
 

chess-player

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Jul 14, 2022
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Schofield may have been a liar, and Darby crooked.

Dispensations, the future return of God to His ancient people and the 1000 year reign are the doctrines believed by the primitive church. Even Justyn Martyr who was fiercely anti Jew believed it.

Right up until the 4th century the church believed these things until they did a dirty deal with the Romans who also aspired to reign for a 1, 000 years.

It was 4th century Augustine who expounded the 2 cities who is the architect of amillinialism. It is a rogue doctrine and has done terrible harm to other doctrines.

What has done terrible harm to the church is the foul doctrine of Dispensationalism. This is a fragile doctrine that was invented 200 years ago. I know next to nothing about Amillennialism, I don't know why you brought it up.
 

chess-player

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If Scofield was "an evil man" he could not possibly have produced a sound reference Bible which was used by millions of Christian for their edification. Speaking evil of Christian brethren is more evil than anything they might have done: Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: (Eph 4:31)

So looks like there is some malice here also. Just like the Left's malice against Donald Trump.
If you think wicked C.I. Scofield produced a 'SOUND REFERENCE BIBLE", you need to consider that this individual actually explains what the bible teaches, nicely removing the Holy Spirit aside to take his place and explain what the bible "really, really, really means."

If I need a man to get involved in my personal Bible Study, I have already moved away from considering what God has to say about His word. Just imagine believing what this man wrote and not knowing that he was 100% wrong in his teachings. He taught humanism disguised as "scholarship."

https://church-of-yehovah.org/CISch... carries copies of Scofield's reference notes.
 

Evmur

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What has done terrible harm to the church is the foul doctrine of Dispensationalism. This is a fragile doctrine that was invented 200 years ago. I know next to nothing about Amillennialism, I don't know why you brought it up.
Paul had a dispensation given unto him, explain how this caused harm in the church. God does not deal with you as He dealt with the Jews.
 

chess-player

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Paul had a dispensation given unto him, explain how this caused harm in the church. God does not deal with you as He dealt with the Jews.
Dispensation is a noun; it means stewardship or management. This word has also been translated as administration.
 

Evmur

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Dispensation is a noun; it means stewardship or management. This word has also been translated as administration.
Well that's what we believe God administers different covenants to different people. Where you [and so many folks] get tangled up is confusing it all with Darby's teaching. His pre-tribulation.
 

chess-player

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Well that's what we believe God administers different covenants to different people. Where you [and so many folks] get tangled up is confusing it all with Darby's teaching. His pre-tribulation.
I agree with you in what you said, except that I don't accept or read Darby's teachings. He was a wicked man. By the way, I am not confused, I believe in covenant theology/partial preterism because it makes much more sense than its counterpart teachings that look to the future to see God's fulfillment of His word-- while (at least me) I look to the past and the ever-present which in time will bring to pass the hope of the believer which is having a glorious body unto the likeness of the Lord's body of glory (Phil. 3:20-21).