Dispensationalists are wrong in Rev 20.

[Evmur]

You are correct about the First resurrection unto Life having two parts, but incorrect about the times.
The first stage occurs at the pre-trib rapture and the second at the beginning of the Millenium. The only resurrection after this is the Second resurrection unto Damnation which occurs at the end of the Millennium.

does Jesus say the elect will be gathered before the tribulation of those days or does He say after the tribulation of those days?

 

[oyster67]

does Jesus say the elect will be gathered before the tribulation of those days or does He say after the tribulation of those days?

The Jewish remnant will be gathered after the Tribulation. Some of the Scriptures definitely refer to them.

I also believe the rapture is the first stage of the first resurrection. I believe we (the Church) will spend all seven years in heaven at the Marriage. The second stage then occurs, and this would be the ressurection of the Tribulation Saints mentioned above (mostly Jews who have come to Christ.)

 

[presidente]

Rev 20. “4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”

There are two categories here, right? Have you ever worshipped the beast, his image or received the mark of the beast. Hey forum, show of hands? Who here has never worshipped the beast, the image of the beast, or gotten the mark of the beast?

I'm sure the number between Christ's ascension and the time described in Revelation 20 is quite a large number. Paul wrote in the first century that if we suffer with him Paul wrote that "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him..." (II Timothy 2:12.) If you think reigning with Christ is only for tribulational saints, you can take this promise also. If you haven't suffered for Jesus, try street preaching, or you could really go for it and take a duffle bag full of Bibles and tracts to pass out in front of the mosque in Saudi Arabia.

The beheaded souls and those not marked by the beast are the only ones that come to life and reign in verse 4. The rest of the dead come to life AFTER the thousand year reign and that coming to life is described as the first resurrection.

There have been plenty of people throughout history who haven't worshipped the beast. Living before the tribulation doesn't stop that. And other scripture teaches that Christ returns and the dead in Christ rise first, so putting it off for another thousand years doesn't fit with other scripture.

Then John says that those in that first resurrection will reign with Christ for one thousand years.
Notice that the beheaded souls and those not marked by the beast simply “come to life” with no mention of having been resurrected.
So…does John indicate two separate thousand year reigns? Because he is certainly explicit that those souls mentioned in verse 4 reign for one thousand years. After which the “rest” of the dead are resurrected in a “FIRST RESURRECTION”!

Huh? I don't understand where you get an extra thousand years. And why would you include the resurrection after the thousand years in the 'first resurrection'. That's a counter-intuitive reading of the verse.

And in verse 6 these rising in the FIRST resurrection ALSO reign with Christ for one thousand years AFTER the souls in verse 4 had already reigned for one thousand years.

I think you are taking a very convoluted, unnatural interpretation of the passage that most human minds would not take. I would imagine almost everyone else in the church universal takes verses 4 and 6 to be about the same people, not matter what interpretation system they are using.

But dispensationalists will try to fancy footwork their way out of TWO MILLENIAL REIGNS OF CHRIST.

Or they can just read and interpret the passage in a straightforward way that people of other eschatologies would understand because they understand the words in the same way, just interpret the scenario differently.

You will have to do some 'fancy footwork' to get us to understand how you understand the words on the page to mean what you think they mean.

Problem: In Rev 20 dispensationalists cannot explain the TWO MILLENIAL REIGNS without perverting the obvious words in the scripture

No, they can just read them in the most straightforward obvious manner that is noncontroversial to most people.

The eschatological system and whether the passage has allegorical elements is controversial. Do you know of any commentator who takes this to refer to two one-thousand year reigns of Christ?

 

[presidente]

I don't prescribe to the Pre-trib rapture. At present, I lean more toward post-trib.

The one thing I can't harmonize with any of the beliefs... pre, mid, or post-trib is an actual 1000 year Millenial Kingdom Reign.

This doesn't make sense to me in any of the contexts.

Why would all these things be done, then for some reason the devil is let loose again after 1000 years to deceive the nations? Who is he going to deceive after that point? It makes no sense to me in the least. So I really can't see how there could be two millennial reigns.

The survivors who are left.

Matthew 24 says one shall be taken and another left.

 

[presidente]

I also believe the rapture is the first stage of the first resurrection. I believe we (the Church) will spend all seven years in heaven at the Marriage.

Where does the Bible teach that, or divide the resurrection up into a third stage, beyond the two mass resurrections mentioned in Revelation?

 

[presidente]

This is a good inquiry.

The gist of the reason is found in Ephesians 3:9-10 "to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places..."

In essence, it was always the intent of God to show His majesty through the church to the powers and principalities in heavenly places (Satan and his angels).

In this, God is not only right to chose humans as His heirs, but, through the saints, He also appears righteous to those who opposed Him from the beginning.

The angelic type beings are powerful, intelligent beings, and God wishes to teach them certain things and He is using the church to teach them. I don't know that whether all the principality and power type beings are in rebellion against God. I do know that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers. If there are also good angelic beings that are in the principality and power category that we are not at war with, I don't see that as a contradiction.

I Peter 1:12, after referencing our salvation, the gospel, and the glory which shall be revealed it says "which things the angels desire to look into'.

The Old Testament speaks of 'sons of God', which were apparently powerful spiritual beings. Jesus spoke of the resurrected in Luke 20:26: "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection".

He's going to take frail mortal beings with imperfections and bring them to glory, being made like Christ, the firstfruits of the resurrection. Certain beings at odds with God who are under judgment may not like the new wave of sons of God that are not completely manifested as sons of God. Maybe they see us as a threat to their position and that could be part of the motivation to war against us. God may want to teach them through us, or could be the ones that are more in line with what they are supposed to do, or maybe both.

 

[presidente]

Essentially the "First Resurrection" has TWO "comings to life", one before the thousand years, and one after the thousand years, BOTH of which are described as the "First Resurrection". And the apostle says that "Those" in this first resurrection, those before the thousand year and those after the thousand years will "reign with Christ for one thousand years.
And that is the rub.

Or the group that he had described are in the first resurrection and the rest of the dead who do not come to life for a thousand years are not a part of it.

 

[oyster67]

Where does the Bible teach that, or divide the resurrection up into a third stage, beyond the two mass resurrections mentioned in Revelation?

John 14:
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This speaks of the bridechamber and the rapture. The Jewish marriage feast last for 7 periods of time (years in this case). This will take place in Heaven during the 7 years of tribulation on earth.

Ther are only two types of Resurrection:
1.) Resurrection unto Life.
2.) Resurrection unto Damnation.

The Resurrection unto Life will consist of the Rapture and the Resurrection of Tribulation Saints.
The Resurrection unto Damnation will consist of The White Throne Judgement.

 

[presidente]

John 14:
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This speaks of the bridechamber and the rapture. The Jewish marriage feast lasdoeriods of time (years in this case). This will take place in Heaven during the 7 years of tribulation on earth.

Would you say that the pretrib rapture doctrine is based on an allegorical interpretation of this Jewish tradition rather than scripture?

The seven day feast is specified in the Talmud. Jesus said to Pharisees and teachers of the law, 'ye teach for doctrines the commandments of men.'

What I see in the Bible is that the parousia, the coming of Christ, is referred to as one event. At the coming of Christ, the resurrection of the dead in Christ and we which are alive and remain takes place. The lawless one is also destroyed at the brightness of His coming.. something that would have to happen after the tribulation rather than before it. The coming of the Son of Man happens 'after the tribulation' in Matthew. Jesus gives the teaching on His coming as a thief, the days of Noah, and 'no man knoweth the day and the hour' in this context.

Ther are only two types of Resurrection:
1.) Resurrection unto Life.
2.) Resurrection unto Damnation.

The Resurrection unto Life will consist of the Rapture and the Resurrection of Tribulation Saints.
The Resurrection unto Damnation will consist of The White Throne Judgement.

The problem with that is that there are two resurrections mentioned in Revelation. The one that happens AFTER the tribulation is the 'first resurrection'. Why would there be a mass resurrection of the saints before the FIRST resurrection?

I have never seen any real evidence for pretrib in the Bible, just pre-tribbers assuming pretrib and wrapping verses around their interpretation.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Would you say that the pretrib rapture doctrine is based on an allegorical interpretation of this Jewish tradition rather than scripture?...I have never seen any real evidence for pretrib in the Bible, just pre-tribbers assuming pretrib and wrapping verses around their interpretation.

No, it is based on Scripture, The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

 

[Reborn-Adopted]

I don't prescribe to the Pre-trib rapture. At present, I lean more toward post-trib.

The one thing I can't harmonize with any of the beliefs... pre, mid, or post-trib is an actual 1000 year Millenial Kingdom Reign.

This doesn't make sense to me in any of the contexts.

Why would all these things be done, then for some reason the devil is let loose again after 1000 years to deceive the nations? Who is he going to deceive after that point? It makes no sense to me in the least. So I really can't see how there could be two millennial reigns.

This bothers me also ...how is there a Physical Return of JESUS with a satan that is still able to deceive people?

John 14:18-19 NKJV — “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.

What i think is about to happen is that the false church will end for a thousand years ...and then satan starts another one after.

 

[oyster67]

Would you say that the pretrib rapture doctrine is based on an allegorical interpretation of this Jewish tradition rather than scripture?

What logic is there in assuming that they are mutually exclusive? Where do you think the Jewish Marriage traditions originated?

 

[oyster67]

Jesus gives the teaching on His coming as a thief, the days of Noah, and 'no man knoweth the day and the hour' in this context.

Yes. All these point to the pre-Trib Rapture.

The problem with that is that there are two resurrections mentioned in Revelation. The one that happens AFTER the tribulation is the 'first resurrection'. Why would there be a mass resurrection of the saints before the FIRST resurrection?

Ther are only two types of Resurrection:
1.) Resurrection unto Life.
2.) Resurrection unto Damnation.

The Resurrection unto Life will consist of the Rapture and the Resurrection of Tribulation Saints.
The Resurrection unto Damnation will consist of The White Throne Judgement.

The Marriage Feast in Heaven (which the Bride attends) occurs before the Second Coming and end of the Trib, not after:
Revelation 19:
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[presidente]

Yes. All these point to the pre-Trib Rapture.


Ther are only two types of Resurrection:
1.) Resurrection unto Life.
2.) Resurrection unto Damnation.

The Resurrection unto Life will consist of the Rapture and the Resurrection of Tribulation Saints.
The Resurrection unto Damnation will consist of The White Throne Judgement.

The Marriage Feast in Heaven (which the Bride attends) occurs before the Second Coming and end of the Trib, not after:
Revelation 19:
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The announcement of the wedding supper followed immediately by the second coming? How is that evidence that the supper is in heaven? And why would it be mentioned right before the second coming if it went on for 7 years?

 

[presidente]

No, it is based on Scripture, The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

I have asked repeatedly for pretribbers to produce scripture that shows that Jesus comes back twice or that tge rapture takes place before the tribulation.

 

[presidente]

What logic is there in assuming that they are mutually exclusive? Where do you think the Jewish Marriage traditions originated?

Doesn't it make more sense to accept what scripture actually says about the tribulation?

According to II Thessalonians 1, Jesus will come and give the church rest from tribulation. At His coming He will execute vengeance on them that know not God when He comes to be glorified in the saints. Pretrib has the judgment of the unbelievers come later.

I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture and resurrection at Christ's coming. II Thessalonians 2 says the lawless one will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming. If Jesus comes back at the beginning of the tribulation how would the man of sin have time to do anything?

 

[oyster67]

The announcement of the wedding supper followed immediately by the second coming?

I don't recall seeing the word "immediate" in there. Was that something of your own invention?

How is that evidence that the supper is in heaven?

Because that is why God prepared a place in Heaven for His bride. The Millenium and Final State takes place on Earth.

And why would it be mentioned right before the second coming if it went on for 7 years?

It would be rather absurd if the Marriage was announced after the fact, and why does the number seven pose such a problem for you? (It all just seems so cut and dried and simple, why do you fight it so?)

I have asked repeatedly for pretribbers to produce scripture that shows that Jesus comes back twice

Jesus only comes back to Earth once. The Rapture is a go-uppage.

tge rapture takes place before the tribulation.

Yes, that is what Revelation 19 tells us. We come back down with Him at His Second Coming.
Jude 1:14 “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”

Doesn't it make more sense to accept what scripture actually says about the tribulation?

Yes it does.

Jesus will come and give the church rest from tribulation.

Jesus will keep us from it.
Revelation 3:10 “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

At His coming He will execute vengeance on them that know not God when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

The Tribulation is the time of God's wrath (and not upon the raptured Church which is in Heaven.)

Pretrib has the judgment of the unbelievers come later.

The Judgement of unbelievers comes after the Millenium.

I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture and resurrection at Christ's coming.

No, it does not.

II Thessalonians 2 says the lawless one will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming.

Yes, the Anti-Christ and False Prophet will be put away at the Second Coming.

If Jesus comes back at the beginning of the tribulation how would the man of sin have time to do anything?

Jesus does not come back to Earth until His Second Coming to Earth. The Rapture occurs seven years prior to this.

Where this idea of post-Trib Rapture came from, I will never know. The end of the Tribulation is a time for coming down, not going up.

 

[presidente]

I don't recall seeing the word "immediate" in there. Was that something of your own invention?

No, I mean those verses that follow that we take to refer to the second coming come _immediately_ after the anouncement of the marriage supper if we continue to read.

Because that is why God prepared a place in Heaven for His bride. The Millenium and Final State takes place on Earth.

The predominant view is that disembodied spirits of the saints go to heaven at death. The New Jerusalem also descends out of heaven after the thousand years. I cannot find any scripture at all for the idea that the church goes to heaven at the rapture. I suspect a lot of pre-tribbers have heard and read that idea so much that they assume it is in the Bible. If it is, please show where the Bible teaches it. We have scripture to show the saints going up to meet the Lord in the air, and we have scripture showing saints returning to earth. The Bible refers to the resurrection and rapture and ascending of the saints in the context of the parousia, and the descending of the saints of the context of the parousia. The lawless one is also destroyed at the parousia. I cannot find any scripture that says that there are multiple parousia events.

It would be rather absurd if the Marriage was announced after the fact, and why does the number seven pose such a problem for you? (It all just seems so cut and dried and simple, why do you fight it so?)

Why would the marriage be announced at the end of the book? You take that as at the end of the thousand years? Why announce a wedding supper at the end of the tribulation if it had actually been celebrated for the whole seven years? It doesn't make sense.

Jesus only comes back to Earth once. The Rapture is a go-uppage.

He comes back, but we go up to meet him on the way. 'Parousia' is translated 'coming.' The term was also used to refer to when a dignitary would come to town and the people of the town would go out to meet him and escort him back into the city.

In II Thessalonians, Paul tells the __church__ how Christ will come and give them rest from those who cause them tribulation executing judgment on them that believe not, when He comes to be glorified in the saints. This fits a post-tribulational rapture scenario. How is it in any way consistent with pre-trib? Pre-trib has the church recieving rest before the execution of vengeance on them that believe not, with Christ being glorified in the saints seven years before Jesus comes to the earth.

Jesus also tells His disciples to watch and wait for the coming of the Son of Man _after_ the tribulation, which He also calls 'great tribulation'. This is in Matthew 24.

Yes, that is what Revelation 19 tells us. We come back down with Him at His Second Coming.
Jude 1:14 “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”

Your having the saints go all the way up past the clouds before coming to earth with the Lord is the part not supported by scripture.

Jesus will keep us from it.
Revelation 3:10 “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

How do you interpret the letters to the angels of the churches? The church in Philadelphia was apparently a literal congregation. I have heard the 'church ages' interpretation. But if that is the case, Philadelphia is not the last age, and the age before the final one is saved from the hour of trial. How do you turn this into a pre-trib rapture verse?

The Tribulation is the time of God's wrath (and not upon the raptured Church which is in Heaven.)

Where does the Bible equate tribulation with wrath. Jesus said in this world ye shall have tribulation. In Matthew 24, the coming of the Son of man and gathering of the elect happens after the tribulation. In II Thessalonians 1, Jesus returns and gives the church rest from tribulation.

There are also saints mentioned in Revelation, saints who overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, who wear white garments. Why would you think that God will be angry at these people?

Not appointed unto wrath comes from a verse that says, '...ye are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." Do you think the tribulational saints who overcome by the blood of the Lamb will not obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ?
The Judgement of unbelievers comes after the Millenium.

I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture and resurrection at Christ's coming.

No, it does not.

Let us look at the Bible.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Compare with,
I Corinthians 15

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is the same Greek word, parousia (inflected for grammary) used in II Thessalonians 2:8.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Jesus does not come back to Earth until His Second Coming to Earth. The Rapture occurs seven years prior to this.

What is lacking is something in the Bible that actually teaches this idea, as opposed to what the Bible actually teaches.

 

[oyster67]

What is lacking is something in the Bible that actually teaches this idea, as opposed to what the Bible actually teaches.

We certainly agree on that.

I have given you abundant scriptural evidence. You have given me nothing but questions (which is understandable in the absence of any post-Trib evidence). I will leave you to your nonsensical post-Trib up-down Pogo-rapture theory then. Let's just make sure we are ready today. We never know what day might be our last.

Godspeed.