Disputed Passages

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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#21
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Most who have seen my posting know, or at least think they know, my stand on the passage above. I will not be discussing it further, rather it is here to suit the OP.

This is a passage that scholars dispute as having been added...?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#22
There is always 1 John 5:7 &13

Is it possible that some early scribe was translating and changing words to make the bible then in scroll form easier to read?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Of all the disputed passages in the Bible 1John 5:7 has the poorest of any of them. The Greek MSS evidence for this verse is virtually non-existent prior to the 10th century. No Greek text contains this verse in the body of the text until 1520. There are some 300 Greek manuscripts of 1John and of these 300 manuscripts, the longer reading appears in only eight very late manuscripts none of which date prior to the tenth century AD and this is in MSS 221. Of these eight, four have it only as a marginal note and it does not appear as part of the body of the text. It did not actually become part of the body of the text until it was added in MSS 61 in 1520. The other four are one from the tenth century, one from the twelfth century, one from the fourteenth century and one from the fifteenth century.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#23
I think that of all the disputed texts, the longer ending of Mark 16 has better evidence than most. The majority of ancient manuscripts do contain the longer ending.
I don't know if I believe that's good proof. It wouldn't matter to me if the majority had it so much as if the earliest manuscripts have it.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
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#24
Oh, thank you for this!!
So there are 4th century manuscripts that do not have it and 5th century manuscripts that do have it. A century is a pretty long time. To me, this is evidence for it being added.
Not necessarily. Being older does not mean better or more reliable when it comes to ancient texts. There is abundant evidence of the longer ending in other sources dating back to the 2nd century.
 
Mar 6, 2018
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#25
I believe that the Holy Spirit is all we have for truth. I read scripture, but I also know the heart of God. I don't speak in letter, but by given words by the Holy Spirit. Is this Spirit not promised to us to divide the truth rightly? Have we allowed ourselves to believe the Spirit of the Almighty God has limitations? I think not! Constant prayer, and doing the will of God is all we have to do. Studying to show ourselves approved isn't through only reading! Study the Spirit and see what is revealed to you. It will give you a second nature that is not of this world. Jesus is the word of God. Does he not speak to us, and do we not speak to Him? We are commanded to love God with all our hearts, and to love each other, but we take the Bible, and we dissect, and dissect, and dissect, and become wise in our own minds, and try to find conspiracy theories in the scriptures, and try to say this means this, and this means that, and the kingdom becomes far from view.. This is what we are wasting our time doing? This is why Christ gave His life for us? Seriously, why can't we simply just pray and fast, worship God together, and have feasts, where we invite the poor. We dissect the Bible to make it more comfortable to live by, by twisting the truth around to satisfy the hunger of a perverse culture. Sorry, but becoming a Christian doesn't make life easy, it does make it better though, and if we really wanted to change the world we could, but we are too busy trying to be the best scripture quotes. I mean seriously, there is a hurting world out there and our only concern is making sure we are snappy script quoters????? If you are going to quote scripture at me, make sure we have time to read the entire Bible, because one script without all word is nothing, and all script without one word is nothing. I love you all, and may God's peace be with you.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#26
Not necessarily. Being older does not mean better or more reliable when it comes to ancient texts. There is abundant evidence of the longer ending in other sources dating back to the 2nd century.

In other sources?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#27
I predict our KJV Only brethren will not like this thread... :)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#29
Oh, thank you for this!!
So there are 4th century manuscripts that do not have it and 5th century manuscripts that do have it. A century is a pretty long time. To me, this is evidence for it being added.
remember the words written were in the 1st century, so it is not just one century.

And by itself, it is not proof. but taken that the words make absolutely no sense. and that many christians have died from poison and snake bites, and other reasons, It is questionable passage.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#31
And do the lectionaries pre-date the actual manuscripts that are earliest?
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#32
I believe that the Holy Spirit is all we have for truth. I read scripture, but I also know the heart of God. I don't speak in letter, but by given words by the Holy Spirit. Is this Spirit not promised to us to divide the truth rightly? Have we allowed ourselves to believe the Spirit of the Almighty God has limitations? I think not! Constant prayer, and doing the will of God is all we have to do. Studying to show ourselves approved isn't through only reading! Study the Spirit and see what is revealed to you. It will give you a second nature that is not of this world. Jesus is the word of God. Does he not speak to us, and do we not speak to Him? We are commanded to love God with all our hearts, and to love each other, but we take the Bible, and we dissect, and dissect, and dissect, and become wise in our own minds, and try to find conspiracy theories in the scriptures, and try to say this means this, and this means that, and the kingdom becomes far from view.. This is what we are wasting our time doing? This is why Christ gave His life for us? Seriously, why can't we simply just pray and fast, worship God together, and have feasts, where we invite the poor. We dissect the Bible to make it more comfortable to live by, by twisting the truth around to satisfy the hunger of a perverse culture. Sorry, but becoming a Christian doesn't make life easy, it does make it better though, and if we really wanted to change the world we could, but we are too busy trying to be the best scripture quotes. I mean seriously, there is a hurting world out there and our only concern is making sure we are snappy script quoters????? If you are going to quote scripture at me, make sure we have time to read the entire Bible, because one script without all word is nothing, and all script without one word is nothing. I love you all, and may God's peace be with you.

This man opened up a discussion on what he wished to discuss. Why would you put him down like this when you could just bypass the discussion if you find it unhelpful or uninteresting?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,226
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#34
Mat 11:28 "Come to me, all of you who are weary and loaded down with burdens, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Place my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble, and you will find rest for your souls,
Mat 11:30 because my yoke is pleasant, and my burden is light."

There are multiple, two at least, interpretations of the above quote which for me seesm self-explanatory ... perhaps some scholars have voted on this teaching's meaning also.
 
Mar 6, 2018
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#35
This man opened up a discussion on what he wished to discuss. Why would you put him down like this when you could just bypass the discussion if you find it unhelpful or uninteresting?
Why is it, that the truth is always offensive to Christians anymore? I didn't attack anybody. I love you.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#36
Mat 11:28 "Come to me, all of you who are weary and loaded down with burdens, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Place my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble, and you will find rest for your souls,
Mat 11:30 because my yoke is pleasant, and my burden is light."

There are multiple, two at least, interpretations of the above quote which for me seesm self-explanatory ... perhaps some scholars have voted on this teaching's meaning also.

I think you are not understanding the mans intent with the thread. He wasn't seeming to me to be desiring a conversation on interpretations but rather on passages or verses that are not found in the earliest manuscripts we have...
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#37
Why is it, that the truth is always offensive to Christians anymore?
I didn't find anything offensive...you seemed to be chiding him for "wasting time", and seemed to be the one taking some sort of offense at what he chose to discuss...
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,226
6,525
113
#38
I think you are not understanding the mans intent with the thread. He wasn't seeming to me to be desiring a conversation on interpretations but rather on passages or verses that are not found in the earliest manuscripts we have...
I must apologize then. I am not a follower of scholars on the Word, only the HOly Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit Who teaches any who know Jesus, Yeshua...
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#39
Why is it, that the truth is always offensive to Christians anymore? I didn't attack anybody. I love you.

Truth has been offensive to people from the beginning of time, Christions are not exempt from this human flaw. Truth hurts our pride, thus it will always be offensive, thats why men hate God.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
113
69
Alabama
#40
And do the lectionaries pre-date the actual manuscripts that are earliest?
Yes and no. There are extant mss that date back as early as the first century. The problem is that these exist only in fragmentary form. The earliest Greek mss that we have that contains most the books of the NT is the Vaticanus from the fourth century. It is however incomplete. It does not contain 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon or Revelation. We have lectionaries that predate the Vaticanus by almost 200 years.