Disputed Passages

[Stunnedbygrace]

Again, when it comes to ancient texts, older does not mean better or more reliable. This is a fact that every scholar of NT Greek understands.

Well I'm not a scholar of NT greek.
But if given the choice of going with two older mss that are in agreement or one mss newer by a century that is not in agreement, I am practical and would go with the older two witnesses that are in agreement than with the newer witness that is not in agreement.

 

[Ralph-]

Yet it does not support it, that is the issue.

I see........other scripture shows us that God will protect a believer from poison introduced into the body through a snake bite but does not show us that he will do that if the poison is introduced into the body through the stomach, therefore the long Mark ending is fake.

Noted.

 

[Ralph-]

Has the passage about the woman caught in adultery been brought up yet (John 7:53-8:11)?

 

[Zmouth]

In addition to the last passages in Mark 16:9-20, don't forget the disputed passage in 1 John 5:7;

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Has the passage about the woman caught in adultery been brought up yet (John 7:53-8:11)?

I didn't know this was a disputed passage! Maybe oldhermit will give us another of those stupendously awesome lists that show which mss it's in and which it's not, as he did for us with the mark passage!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It will be interesting to see if Sin and Vat agree in this passage as well...and if the later one disagrees again...

 

[JaumeJ]

I see........other scripture shows us that God will protect a believer from poison introduced into the body through a snake bite but does not show us that he will do that if the poison is introduced into the body through the stomach, therefore the long Mark ending is fake.

Noted.

I know how Paul was bitten and clamped onto by a poisonous snake while on the island after being shipwrecked.....that was a neat and inspiring event.

This is not the same, but many years ago outside of Albox, Almeria in Spain, I ventured out of my farm house in thongs. When I came back in I found, to my amazement I had a scorpion between my foot and the thong, but it did not sting me. All I can say is the Lord was taking care of things. It was a yellow scorpion.......no longer with us I am afraid.

 

[Ralph-]

Incredible coincidence! Almost an hour ago I was relating a story to one of my co-workers about my crazy party days. I woke up with a terrible thirst after the previous nights activities. We had a dark brown Ice-tea container that we had used for yrs, so you couldn't see through it. It was left out on the kitchen counter, and like the slob I was, I picked it up to chug right out of it.

Now my mom would periodically pour bleach, and let it sit in it to sterilize because of slobs like me! I don't know if she diluted it, or by how much, but as soon as I chugged it I thought "Oh my God! That's it! I'm dead!". I can't describe how awful it was and how it took my breath away for a minute or so.

After that minute, and I really don't know how long it was, I discovered there were no ill effects from it! I am certain now thinking about it, that was yet another in a ridiculously long number of times, that it MUST have been the Lord protecting me from many insanely stupid acts I have done. I'm pretty certain I wasn't a true, born again Christian back then, but the Lord knew that one day I'd be His child! Praise His Holy Holy Name!!

I was in a bad car accident when I was 17 and was unhurt. After the accident I grabbed my tool box out from behind the front seat. It had gotten crumpled on top because the impact broke the front seat off of it's mounts and had landed on it.

As I was standing there on the side of the road collecting myself from what just happened I looked down and saw a bright spot of fresh blood on the top of the tool box. I have no idea where it came from because me and my buddy had no cuts or abrasions. After not thinking about it for a few years I eventually got saved a few years later and God impressed on me that it signified his blood shed for me and that he had protected me that night from either very serious injury or death. The car should have went up in a fiery ball of flames but it didn't. And we had no injuries even though we were not wearing our seat belts (can't remember if '67 Ramblers had belts anyway, lol).

 

[oldhermit]

This is a subject that fascinates me. These are ones on the tip of my tongue at the moment.

Zechariah 14:5 - IMO indisputably correct in bibles translated from the Septuagint (LXX) rendering of this verse and not in those translated from the Masoretic Text (MT). Search interwebs for azal + yasul + zechariah for proof.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 - enough evidence exists that these verses are an interpolation to make a dogmatic interpretation untenable and unwise.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - IMO the correct translation of the second occurrence in this verse is sin offering, and not sin (which it is translated as in 95% bibles).

Well, since I do not have any understanding of Hebrew, and am not well versed in the mss of the OT, I will not presume to comment on Jech. 14:5.

What is your evidence to suggest any manipulation of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35?

2 Corinthians 5:21 reads as follows in the Greek
τὸν μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν, ἵνα ἡμεῖς γενώμεθα δικαιοσύνη Θεοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ.
There is no variance in this verse in any of the MSS I have with the exception of the Byzantine text which reads Tὸν γὰρ μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν...
Now, the implication by Paul may well be to the sin offering but to assume this would be interpretation on our part.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You gave me humongous goosebumps there ralph!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see........other scripture shows us that God will protect a believer from poison introduced into the body through a snake bite but does not show us that he will do that if the poison is introduced into the body through the stomach, therefore the long Mark ending is fake.

Noted.

Mark says ANYONE (ALL THESE SIGNS WILL FOLLOW THEM WHO BELIEVE, the words ALL and WILL is all inclusive, it means everyone) will be who is has the faith which saved, they will be bitten by a snake and not die, and will drink poison and not die. They will lay hands on sick and they will be healed and cast out demons..

This is not true. yes, SOME have been healed, SOME have healed others and cast out demons, But ALL these things HAVE NOT happened for those who believe.

but you like to twist things to make them come true, so I expect nothing less from you

 

[oldhermit]

In addition to the last passages in Mark 16:9-20, don't forget the disputed passage in 1 John 5:7;

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

See post #22.

 

[posthuman]

what about John 7:53-8:11 ((the woman caught in adultery)) ?

as much as the image of Him writing in the dust captivates me, the account does have some puzzling implications under scrutiny, and i'm aware that there is a significant argument for it being a later addition . . ?

EDIT:
i see it's in Shrume's big list & Ralph also mentioned it.. looking forward to hearing more

 

[PennEd]

I was in a bad car accident when I was 17 and was unhurt. After the accident I grabbed my tool box out from behind the front seat. It had gotten crumpled on top because the impact broke the front seat off of it's mounts and had landed on it.

As I was standing there on the side of the road collecting myself from what just happened I looked down and saw a bright spot of fresh blood on the top of the tool box. I have no idea where it came from because me and my buddy had no cuts or abrasions. After not thinking about it for a few years I eventually got saved a few years later and God impressed on me that it signified his blood shed for me and that he had protected me that night from either very serious injury or death. The car should have went up in a fiery ball of flames but it didn't. And we had no injuries even though we were not wearing our seat belts (can't remember if '67 Ramblers had belts anyway, lol).

That's a great story! I'm coming to believe more and more that the Lord will protect His Children, even if they aren't His Children yet!

I could be on here for days relating how many times my prodigal living should have absolutely resulted in my death, well before I was a born again believer.

I think the account you just told is a great way to witness to unsaved people you have an opportunity to speak with.

 

[oldhermit]

what about John 8:1-11 ((the woman caught in adultery)) ?

as much as the image of Him writing in the dust captivates me, the account does have some puzzling implications under scrutiny, and i'm aware that there is a significant argument for it being a later addition . . ?

Like most disputed passages, the account appears in some MSS but not in others. What people have a tendency to do is to try to find some way to discredit whatever they find in scripture that does not measure up to personal convictions. I have noticed that people will disregard even overwhelming evidence for a test in order to hold on to personal conviction. I am not suggesting this is what you are doing with these verses, especially since you have been rather nebulous about what it is you question about this passage.

 

[Faith_Like_Paul]

Well intentioned, but ignorant.

Please help me then, and show me the error in my proclamation. I am open-minded, and would love to know how to fix this error.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

2 Corinthians 5:21 reads as follows in the Greek
τὸν μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν, ἵνα ἡμεῖς γενώμεθα δικαιοσύνη Θεοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ.
There is no variance in this verse in any of the MSS I have with the exception of the Byzantine text which reads Tὸν γὰρ μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν...
Now, the implication by Paul may well be to the sin offering but to assume this would be interpretation on our part.

Yes, it's not a variant. It is an interpretation either way - sin offering or sin. If the latter, why was the word υπέρ added to the second instance of αμαρτία instead of just αμαρτία as it is in the first instance in that verse? υπέρ αμαρτία is used in Hebrews 5:1 regarding sin sacrifices of the high priest. And αμαρτία with a preposition (e.g., υπέρ, περί) is how sin offering is written in the LXX. In the Hebrew it's the same way - sin + preposition (i.e., for sin).

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well of course I want someone else to do all of the work for me regarding these other disputed passages, but I'll go see if I can find a list like the one oldhermit gave and post it here for the woman caught in adultery passage. One that shows which mss it's in and which it isn't. Might take me a while but I'll come back and post it.

This is a very good thread. If I could rate it as I could on the old site I would certainly do so!

 

[Zmouth]

See post #22.

my bad....

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Please help me then, and show me the error in my proclamation. I am open-minded, and would love to know how to fix this error.

The spirit and word go together like hand and glove. You can't have one without the other. The word ensures that the spirit we are following is indeed holy, so it is profitable that we have as accurate a witness as possible. You would not even have a reliable bible without all of the incredible effort that scholars have expended on it.