Distinctives of Dispensationalism
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a 2000 year gap does not mean I preach a different gospel.
and satan is chasing the jews. He has been since they were first born, and he will until they are killed off, or he is killed off. which ever comes first.
Yeah been there done that. And yeah it gets old being told I believe something I do not. If your not going to fess up to the fact you do not understand my belief, then do us all a favor and stop mocking what yuo do not understand.
A gap is not unseen in the OT Is 14 speaks of the destruction of babylon by the meeds, and the destruction of ALL nations by the lord and his armies at his return.
Yet it speaks like it is one event which happens at one time. There has been how long a gap since the first part of the fulfillment (the medes overrunning the babylonian empire) happened until now??
Don;t tell me there are no gaps in prophesy, they are ALL over the place.
there are two types in most prophesied concerning mankind
Type prophesy, The writer looks forward and sees two events. the near one being the type of the far one. Yet he can not see the gap which occurs between the two events. He writs them as one event.
Gap prophesy. The writer looks forward and sees two or more events. But since he is looking at a straight line, he can not see the gaps which occur in between the two events. He writes them as though they are one event in sequence.
and satan is chasing the jews. He has been since they were first born, and he will until they are killed off, or he is killed off. which ever comes first.
Yeah been there done that. And yeah it gets old being told I believe something I do not. If your not going to fess up to the fact you do not understand my belief, then do us all a favor and stop mocking what yuo do not understand.
A gap is not unseen in the OT Is 14 speaks of the destruction of babylon by the meeds, and the destruction of ALL nations by the lord and his armies at his return.
Yet it speaks like it is one event which happens at one time. There has been how long a gap since the first part of the fulfillment (the medes overrunning the babylonian empire) happened until now??
Don;t tell me there are no gaps in prophesy, they are ALL over the place.
there are two types in most prophesied concerning mankind
Type prophesy, The writer looks forward and sees two events. the near one being the type of the far one. Yet he can not see the gap which occurs between the two events. He writs them as one event.
Gap prophesy. The writer looks forward and sees two or more events. But since he is looking at a straight line, he can not see the gaps which occur in between the two events. He writes them as though they are one event in sequence.
Revelation Chapter 14
(Notes from Adam are in maroon-colored font; A new section reflecting the Historicist viewpoints of Sam Storms can be found at the bottom of this post, and was added on November 30th.)
Verse 1: Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.What do you recall from Revelation 7 about the 144,000?
• They are sealed from the wrath to come
• They are servants of God
• There are 12,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel
• They are sealed on their foreheadsSome view the 144,000 from chapter 7 as the same group as the multitude in chapter 7.
Can you recall the arguments against this view?Note the similarity of this verse to Hebrews 12:22 – 23, which states, “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect.” Steve Gregg writes in his book, Revelation: Four Views (A Parallel Commentary), that some believe this passage here in Revelation “influenced the writer of the epistle to the Hebrews, a suggestion which, if true, tends to establish the pre-A.D. 70 date of writing for Revelation” (p. 314). Gregg also writes,
• They are standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion
• They have the name of the Lamb and His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
• They were redeemed from the earth.
• They (and only they) could learn the new song that was being sung
• They are virgins
• They follow the Lamb wherever He goes
• They are said to be redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb
• In their mouth no lie was found for they are blameless
Q: Who are the 144,000?
A: According to the Pre-tribulation rapture view, they are Jewish believers brought to faith after Jesus returns and removes the church from the earth (How they are brought to faith is a question which naturally accompanies this view, since many who hold this view believe that the restrainer of II Thessalonians 2:6-7 is the Holy Spirit who is removed from the earth along with the Church). Kenneth Gentry, a partial-preterist, says (Before Jerusalem Fell, 1998, pp. 232ff) that the 144,000 are Christians of Jewish extraction:• Jewish, because they are “in the land”**
• Jewish, because they are from the twelve tribes of Israel
• Jewish, because they are contrasted with the multitude in 9-17**[In our study of Revelation so far, we have suggested that many of the references to “the earth” (also translated "the land") in the book of Revelation are not meant to be taken as worldwide in scope, but as dealing instead with the land of Israel/Palestine. In a 3-part study on this subjectbeginning with this post, I have outlined nearly 20 instances where this appears to be the case.]
Q: Does the fact that they are termed “firstfruits” shed light on whether they are from the AD 60’s or from a time period yet to come?
A: Yes. As Steve Gregg has written, “That this group lived in the first century is confirmed in another passage, which calls them the ‘firstfruits to God’ (Rev. 14:4). Since the church age has been one long harvest of souls (Matt. 9:37f; John 4:35-38), the ‘firstfruits’ must have come in at the beginning of this time (compare James 1:1, 18, which speaks of the Jewish believers as ‘firstfruits’). If this 144,000 referred to some future group living in the end times (as the futurists believe), one would expect them to be called the ‘last fruits’ ” (Source: See chapter 7 study).
Q: Why might John be bringing up the 144,000 again?
A: Possible answer: as an encouragement to those persecuted by the beast – that they will soon be with the Lord in Mt. Zion.)Regarding the 144,000, who are said to be virgins: Note that being virgins might not pertain to their marital status or moral purity; rather it might have to do with the fact that they have not been defiled by the harlot, Jerusalem (more on this when we reach chapters 16-18 in our study, or feel free to look here for my personal take on this).
Q: Why does John describe them as blameless?
A: Possible answer: it is because of their redeemed state.Verses 6-8: 6Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. 7And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”
8Another angel, a second, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.”
This is the first mention of Babylon. What do we know of it from the text?
• She was “great”
• She was influential
• She was lawless
Q: Who or what is Babylon?
A: (Preterists are split . . . Jerusalem or Rome; again, more on this in our study of chapters 16-18, but feel free to look here for my personal take on this)Steve Gregg notes that there are those (like David S. Clark) who believe that the “eternal gospel” here is simply “the announcement of the doom and judgment” which is depicted as soon to fall (p. 320). However, adds Gregg, “most expositors would see this as a reference to the regular message of salvation that Christ told His disciples to preach, and which He indicated would be preached in all the world before ‘the end comes’ (Matt. 24:14).” He quotes from J. Stuart Russell, who wrote:
(Notes from Adam are in maroon-colored font; A new section reflecting the Historicist viewpoints of Sam Storms can be found at the bottom of this post, and was added on November 30th.)
Verse 1: Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.What do you recall from Revelation 7 about the 144,000?
• They are sealed from the wrath to come
• They are servants of God
• There are 12,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel
• They are sealed on their foreheadsSome view the 144,000 from chapter 7 as the same group as the multitude in chapter 7.
Can you recall the arguments against this view?Note the similarity of this verse to Hebrews 12:22 – 23, which states, “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect.” Steve Gregg writes in his book, Revelation: Four Views (A Parallel Commentary), that some believe this passage here in Revelation “influenced the writer of the epistle to the Hebrews, a suggestion which, if true, tends to establish the pre-A.D. 70 date of writing for Revelation” (p. 314). Gregg also writes,
The first vision of this chapter, depicting the 144,000 with the Lamb standing on Mount Zion (v. 1), is reminiscent of the second psalm. The psalm speaks of the kings and rulers vainly rebelling against and resisting God and the Messiah, but declares that God laughs at their futile efforts to unseat Him from His sovereign position. God tells them, “Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion” (v. 6). Despite all the efforts of the dragon and the beast to eliminate the church, the Judean believers stand secure with the Lord in victory (p. 312).
Verses 2-5: 2And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, 3and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.What do we learn about the 144,000 from chapter 14?
• They are standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion
• They have the name of the Lamb and His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
• They were redeemed from the earth.
• They (and only they) could learn the new song that was being sung
• They are virgins
• They follow the Lamb wherever He goes
• They are said to be redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb
• In their mouth no lie was found for they are blameless
Q: Who are the 144,000?
A: According to the Pre-tribulation rapture view, they are Jewish believers brought to faith after Jesus returns and removes the church from the earth (How they are brought to faith is a question which naturally accompanies this view, since many who hold this view believe that the restrainer of II Thessalonians 2:6-7 is the Holy Spirit who is removed from the earth along with the Church). Kenneth Gentry, a partial-preterist, says (Before Jerusalem Fell, 1998, pp. 232ff) that the 144,000 are Christians of Jewish extraction:• Jewish, because they are “in the land”**
• Jewish, because they are from the twelve tribes of Israel
• Jewish, because they are contrasted with the multitude in 9-17**[In our study of Revelation so far, we have suggested that many of the references to “the earth” (also translated "the land") in the book of Revelation are not meant to be taken as worldwide in scope, but as dealing instead with the land of Israel/Palestine. In a 3-part study on this subjectbeginning with this post, I have outlined nearly 20 instances where this appears to be the case.]
Q: Does the fact that they are termed “firstfruits” shed light on whether they are from the AD 60’s or from a time period yet to come?
A: Yes. As Steve Gregg has written, “That this group lived in the first century is confirmed in another passage, which calls them the ‘firstfruits to God’ (Rev. 14:4). Since the church age has been one long harvest of souls (Matt. 9:37f; John 4:35-38), the ‘firstfruits’ must have come in at the beginning of this time (compare James 1:1, 18, which speaks of the Jewish believers as ‘firstfruits’). If this 144,000 referred to some future group living in the end times (as the futurists believe), one would expect them to be called the ‘last fruits’ ” (Source: See chapter 7 study).
Q: Why might John be bringing up the 144,000 again?
A: Possible answer: as an encouragement to those persecuted by the beast – that they will soon be with the Lord in Mt. Zion.)Regarding the 144,000, who are said to be virgins: Note that being virgins might not pertain to their marital status or moral purity; rather it might have to do with the fact that they have not been defiled by the harlot, Jerusalem (more on this when we reach chapters 16-18 in our study, or feel free to look here for my personal take on this).
Q: Why does John describe them as blameless?
A: Possible answer: it is because of their redeemed state.Verses 6-8: 6Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. 7And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”
8Another angel, a second, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.”
This is the first mention of Babylon. What do we know of it from the text?
• She was “great”
• She was influential
• She was lawless
Q: Who or what is Babylon?
A: (Preterists are split . . . Jerusalem or Rome; again, more on this in our study of chapters 16-18, but feel free to look here for my personal take on this)Steve Gregg notes that there are those (like David S. Clark) who believe that the “eternal gospel” here is simply “the announcement of the doom and judgment” which is depicted as soon to fall (p. 320). However, adds Gregg, “most expositors would see this as a reference to the regular message of salvation that Christ told His disciples to preach, and which He indicated would be preached in all the world before ‘the end comes’ (Matt. 24:14).” He quotes from J. Stuart Russell, who wrote:
There is a manifest allusion here to the fact predicted by our Lord that, before the coming of “the end,” the Gospel of the kingdom would first be preached in all the world…”for a witness to all nations” (Matt. 24:14). This symbol, therefore, indicates the near approach of the catastrophe of Jerusalem,–the arrival of the hour of Israel’s judgment.
The following is an excerpt from my term paper on 70 AD, regarding the idea that the gospel was preached in all the world by 70 AD:…it’s interesting that Paul told his Roman readers that their faith “is spoken of throughout the whole world” (Romans 1:8). In his epistle to the Colossians he also said that “the word of the truth of the gospel,” which had come to them, had gone to “the entire world” (Colossians 1:6) and had “been proclaimed in all creation under heaven” (verse 23). Devout Jews “from every nation under heaven” even heard the gospel in their own languages on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:5).Do these statements not indicate that Matthew 24:14 had already been fulfilled by the time they were written? The phrase “the whole world” here then must mean what it meant in Luke 2:1 when we are told that “the entire world” was registered in the days of Caesar Augustus, i.e. the known world or the Roman Empire (cf. Luke 11:28, Acts 24:5, Romans 16:25-26). Eusebius (263-339)…said this about Matthew 24:14:Thus, under the influence of heavenly power, and with the divine co-operation, the doctrine of the Saviour, like the rays of the sun, quickly illumined the whole world; [1] and straightway, in accordance with the divine Scriptures, [2] the voice of the inspired evangelists and apostles went forth through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world; the Apostles preached the Gospel in all the world, and some of them passed beyond the bounds of the ocean, and visited the Britannic isles (Dennis Todd [4]; [8], 2009).
Revelation Chapter 14 | Pursuing Truth
cont
Revelation Chapter 14 | Pursuing Truth
cont
cont
Verses 9-11: 9And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Q: What is the mark that John is referring to?
A: The mark of chapter 13.Do you see any contrasts to anything earlier in the book?
• “Forehead” in 14:1 (the foreheads of God’s faithful servants)
• “no rest day or night” in 4:8 (i.e. for the four living creatures, who worship the Lord without ceasing)Two views of verses 9-12:
• The description of hell awaiting all non-believers
• The violent destruction that awaited historical Jerusalem or Rome; in this regard, Steve Gregg (p. 328) notes that the imagery here (“fire and sulphur”) reminds one of the destruction that came upon Sodom and Gomorrah. He adds, “If one argues that Sodom’s smoke did not ascend ‘forever and ever,’ it should be noted that Jude spoke of Sodom and Gomorrah as ‘suffering the vengeance of eternal fire’ (Jude 7)… [The context in Jude indicates] the visible destruction of the cities as a historical witness to God’s wrath toward sin.”Verse 13: 13And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”
Why are the dead blessed?
• They experience relief from persecution
• They receive entrance into the presence of ChristIs it still the case that the dead in the Lord are blessed?What does “their deeds follow them” mean? And is this still the case?What is the significance of “from now on”?
• [1] From this point in history (70 AD) onward (See Hebrews 9:8, which, according to some interpreters, indicates that the “way into the holy places” was not fully opened as long as the Jerusalem temple–”the first section” was “still standing“). This is not necessarily a typical partial-preterist viewpoint.
• Or [2] From the point of death onwardRegarding the first option, Steve Gregg states (p. 332):
Verses 14-20: 14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia
.Q: What are the differences between these two reapings? What are they referring to?
A: There is a distinction between a “dry” ripening (v 15-16) and a grape ripening (v. 18). See Matthew 3:11-12; 13:31-34. The first reaping is said by some to be a reaping of the righteous; the second of the unrighteous. Others say that both are of the unrighteous.Of the first view, Steve Gregg comments (p. 336), “Many expositors believe that the reaping of verses 14-16 has to do with the salvation of the believers, or their gathering to safety (the escape of the Judean Christians to Pella in A.D. 66-70), while the vintage vision of verses 17-20 depicts the judgment upon the city of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.” He quotes from J. Stuart Russell, who believes that verses 14-16 are “the fulfillment of the prediction, ‘The Son of Man shall send His angels, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds‘ (Matt. 24:31-34), an event which was to take place before the passing of that generation.” Gregg then adds,
Revelation Chapter 14 | Pursuing Truth
cont
Verses 9-11: 9And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Q: What is the mark that John is referring to?
A: The mark of chapter 13.Do you see any contrasts to anything earlier in the book?
• “Forehead” in 14:1 (the foreheads of God’s faithful servants)
• “no rest day or night” in 4:8 (i.e. for the four living creatures, who worship the Lord without ceasing)Two views of verses 9-12:
• The description of hell awaiting all non-believers
• The violent destruction that awaited historical Jerusalem or Rome; in this regard, Steve Gregg (p. 328) notes that the imagery here (“fire and sulphur”) reminds one of the destruction that came upon Sodom and Gomorrah. He adds, “If one argues that Sodom’s smoke did not ascend ‘forever and ever,’ it should be noted that Jude spoke of Sodom and Gomorrah as ‘suffering the vengeance of eternal fire’ (Jude 7)… [The context in Jude indicates] the visible destruction of the cities as a historical witness to God’s wrath toward sin.”Verse 13: 13And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”
Why are the dead blessed?
• They experience relief from persecution
• They receive entrance into the presence of ChristIs it still the case that the dead in the Lord are blessed?What does “their deeds follow them” mean? And is this still the case?What is the significance of “from now on”?
• [1] From this point in history (70 AD) onward (See Hebrews 9:8, which, according to some interpreters, indicates that the “way into the holy places” was not fully opened as long as the Jerusalem temple–”the first section” was “still standing“). This is not necessarily a typical partial-preterist viewpoint.
• Or [2] From the point of death onwardRegarding the first option, Steve Gregg states (p. 332):
It is also possible that the emphasis is upon the state of those who die in the Lord after a certain point in history–in which case, the allusion may be to the change occasioned by the replacement of the Old Covenant with the New. If the fall of Jerusalem has been the subject of this chapter to this point, then it would follow naturally that this passage considers the impact of the Old Covenant’s passing upon the postmortem experience of believers. Remembering that “the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing” (Heb. 9:8), [David] Chilton writes: “By the work of Christ, heaven has been opened to God’s people. The limbus patrum, the afterlife abode of the Old Testament faithful (the ‘bosom of Abraham’ of Luke 16:22), has been unlocked and its inhabitants freed (cf. I Pet. 3:19; 4:6). Death is now the entrance to communion in glory with Christ and the departed saints.”
Verses 14-20: 14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia
.Q: What are the differences between these two reapings? What are they referring to?
A: There is a distinction between a “dry” ripening (v 15-16) and a grape ripening (v. 18). See Matthew 3:11-12; 13:31-34. The first reaping is said by some to be a reaping of the righteous; the second of the unrighteous. Others say that both are of the unrighteous.Of the first view, Steve Gregg comments (p. 336), “Many expositors believe that the reaping of verses 14-16 has to do with the salvation of the believers, or their gathering to safety (the escape of the Judean Christians to Pella in A.D. 66-70), while the vintage vision of verses 17-20 depicts the judgment upon the city of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.” He quotes from J. Stuart Russell, who believes that verses 14-16 are “the fulfillment of the prediction, ‘The Son of Man shall send His angels, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds‘ (Matt. 24:31-34), an event which was to take place before the passing of that generation.” Gregg then adds,
Some have thought it strange that Christ, the Lord over all angels, would take instructions from an angel who urges Him to Thrust in Your sickle and reap (v. 15). However, the angel simply represents the church praying in obedience to Christ, who commanded that believers “pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest” (Matt. 9:38). In response to the request, laborers are in fact sent and the earth (or land) was reaped (v. 16).
Regarding the harvest of verses 17-20, there is a direct correlation to the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BC (See Lamentations 1:15 – 20;This makes much sense if the same imagery used in Jeremiah’s day is used once again when Jerusalem falls for the second time in 70 AD because of Israel’s unfaithfulness–and rejection of her Messiah). The bloodshed foretold in 19-20 is said by Preterists to be fulfilled in the Roman army’s attack in 70 AD. The following information is taken from my term paper on Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 AD:
Revelation Chapter 14 | Pursuing Truth
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Josephus writes [concerning the Roman soldiers, after they had burned down the temple in Jerusalem], “they ran every one through whom they met with, and obstructed the very lanes with their dead bodies, and made the whole city run down with blood, to such a degree indeed that the fire of many houses was quenched with these men’s blood” (The Wars Of The Jews, 6:8:5).The amount of blood that flowed, not only in Jerusalem but also throughout the surrounding region, could possibly bring to mind a passage like Revelation 14:19-20, which says, “So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia [about 184 miles].” This was the understanding of John Wesley (1703-1791) who, in his commentary on this passage, wrote:
Josephus writes [concerning the Roman soldiers, after they had burned down the temple in Jerusalem], “they ran every one through whom they met with, and obstructed the very lanes with their dead bodies, and made the whole city run down with blood, to such a degree indeed that the fire of many houses was quenched with these men’s blood” (The Wars Of The Jews, 6:8:5).The amount of blood that flowed, not only in Jerusalem but also throughout the surrounding region, could possibly bring to mind a passage like Revelation 14:19-20, which says, “So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia [about 184 miles].” This was the understanding of John Wesley (1703-1791) who, in his commentary on this passage, wrote:
And the winepress was trodden – By the Son of God, Rev 19:15. Without [outside] the city – Jerusalem. They to whom St. John writes, when a man said, ‘the city,’ immediately understood this. And blood came out of the winepress, even to the horses’ bridles – So deep at its first flowing from the winepress! One thousand six hundred furlongs – So far! At least two hundred miles, through the whole land of Palestine.
Wesley, like many today, tied this passage (Revelation 14:19-20) to Rev. 19:11-21, and rightly so. This is often referred to as the “Battle of Armageddon,” which Tim Lahaye and other Futurist authors generally say will happen in the plain of Megiddo. Author John Noe, on the other hand, notes that what the Bible refers to as a “battle on the great day of God the Almighty” (Rev. 16:14) would transpire “at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon” (Rev. 16:16). In Hebrew it’s actually “Har-Magedon,” as “har” means mountain in Hebrew (“Armageddon” is based on the Greek rendering, since “h” is silent in Hebrew). Therefore, this battle was to take place primarily on a mountain, not in a valley. Noe adds,The most likely case is that Revelation’s “Har” is Jerusalem. Geographically, Jerusalem sits on top of a mountain. To get there from any direction one must go “up to Jerusalem” (2 Sam. 19:34; 1 Ki. 12:28; 2 Ki. 18:17; 2 Chron. 2:16; Ezra 1:3; 7:7; Zech. 14:17; Matt. 20:17, 18; Mark 10:32, 33; Luke 18:31; 19:28; John 2:13; 5:1; Acts 11:2; 15:2; 21:12, 15; 24:11; 25:9; Gal. 1:17, 18). Jerusalem is also called God’s “holy mountain” (Psa. 43:3) and the “chief among the mountains” (Isa. 2:2-3; also 14:13; Exod. 15:17; Joel 2:32; 3:16-17)… “Magedon/Megiddo” may also be comparative imagery. A great slaughter once took place in the valley of Megiddo (2 Ki. 9:27; Zech. 12:11). Throughout ancient history, this valley was also a favorite corridor for invading armies and the scene of numerous famous battles (Jud. 4-7; 1 Sam. 29-31; 2 Sam. 4; 1 Ki. 9:15; 2 Ki. 9-10; 22; 2 Chron. 35). So much blood was shed in this valley of Jezreel or Megiddo that it became a synonym for slaughter, violence, bloodshed, and battlefield, as well as a symbol for God’s judgment (Hos. 1:4-5). In our day, Armageddon has also become synonymous with and a symbol for the ultimate in warfare and conflict.In a similar fashion, the word “Waterloo” has garnered a symbolic use. Back in 1815, this town in Belgium was the battleground and scene of Napoleon’s final defeat. Today, we have a saying that some one or some thing has met their “Waterloo.” We don’t mean they have met that city in Europe. We mean, by way of comparative imagery, that they have met a decisive or crushing defeat, or their demise. I suggest Revelation employs the word Magedon/Megiddo in this same manner. History records that a great slaughter took place on a mountain in Palestine within the lifetime of the original recipients of the book of Revelation. In A.D. 70 the Roman armies of Titus totally destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. According to Eusebius, 1.1 million Jews were killed.
This description by Josephus also shows how the fulfillment of this prophecy could have taken place during the Roman-Jewish War of 67-73 AD, regarding which he provides the following account:Now, this destruction that fell upon the Jews, as it was not inferior to any of the rest in itself, so did it still appear greater than it really was; and this, because not only the whole of the country through which they had fled was filled with slaughter, and [the] Jordan [River] could not be passed over, by reason of the dead bodies that were in it, but because the Lake Asphaltitis [the modern Dead Sea] was also full of dead bodies, that were carried down into it by the river. And now, Placidus, after this good success that he had, fell violently upon the neighbouring smaller cities and villages; when he took Abila, and Julias, and Bezemoth, and all those that lay as far as the lake Asphaltitis, and put such of the deserters into each of them as he thought proper. He then put his soldiers on board the ships, and slew such as had fled to the lake, insomuch that all Perea had either surrendered themselves, or were taken by the Romans, as far as Macherus (Josephus, “Account of the Lake Asphaltitis,” War of the Jews 4:7:6).
Revelation Chapter 14 | Pursuing Truth
Revelation Chapter 14 | Pursuing Truth
The point is and has been was Revelation mostly fulfilled? Either it is true or it is not. You can not change history. And have you not used basically your same old talking points?
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Others are finding information that they may have never thought of.
That is your choice.
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Others are finding information that they may have never thought of.
That is your choice.
W
My experience is that most, if not all prophecy and the word of God in general, which is alive and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword is full of meaning and multiple fulfillment's.A very simple example is the tabernacle of Moses. It was a literal tabernacle,real and of use in Gods plan. But we also know by scripture that this was a type of the tabernacle he saw in heaven.Again literal and useful in Gods plan. Probably a picture of the church, of Solomon s temple,and the rebuilt temple.Of our bodies as the temple,or even more we don't comprehend. What I'm saying Gods word is unsearchable, past finding out the glory and fullness of God it hold ,not saying God doesn't reveal it to us through the Holy Spirit but only in part. like I think it says in maybe John the the whole world couldn't contain enough books revealing fully the truth and attributes of Gods glory and purposes. Irrespective of dispensationist though, Gods word probably has many truthful fulfillment's. That which is has already been and there is nothing new under the sun.We all should be quick to hear slow to speak and slow to wrath.And in meekness showing and instructing them that we think are opposing themselves, considering ourselves first,endeavoring to keep the bond of peace.But many false prophets and teachers shall arise and deceive many.
Okay, just for you. . .to pick one among many--Zane Hodges: The Gospel Under Seige (Dallas: Redencion Viva, 1981)
For Hodges, the "gospel is under siege" by those who state (p.3) that
"unless you persevere in good works, you cannot be saved" (Mt 24:13), and
"unless you yield your life to the Lordship of Christ, you cannot be saved" (Mt 7:21).
In Hodges diminished understanding of faith, he always assumes faith is a live faith.
But we find at least five different meanings of faith in the NT, historical (1Co 10:2-5); temporary
(Lk 8:13); miraculous (1Co 13:2; Mt 7:22); symbolic (Heb 9:7-9, 13, 10:4) and salvific (Eph 2:8-9;
Ro 3:25, 9:30).
The first four are not necessarily saving faith, while the fifth one is necessarily saving faith.
But for Hodges, since "faith" always means a live faith, then faith can't be "dead" unless
it was once "alive."
For him, no kind of faith can be dead from its beginning, there can be no counterfeit faith.
So Hodges, the literalist dispensationalist, makes an allegory out of the word "dead,"
comparing it to a human corpse which, though now dead, was once alive (p. 20).
The faith that was once alive (evidenced by good works) can die (evidenced by lack of works).
But therein he contradicts what he elsewhere states--that "faith has nothing to do with works,"
that faith that is alive need not result in any fruit at all.
And for Hodges, not only was the "dead" faith once "alive,"
dead faith results only in physical death, it does not result in eternal death.
Hodges teaches salvation by dead faith (p.23).
Jesus said, "He who perseveres to the end will be saved." (Mt 24:13)
Dead faith is not persevering faith.
This is "another gospel," according to dispensationalism which is, in fact, no gospel at all.
In dispensationalism's other gospel, a person's (counterfeit) faith can totally die, and
he will still have eternal life.
In dispensationalism, dying in unbelief does not bar from eternal life.
Jesus said, "He who does not believe is condemned already," (Jn 3:18); i.e., no eternal life. . .period
. . .not now. . .not at death. . .not ever. . .none. . .nada. . .zip!
The gospel of John states, "Whoever rejects the Son (which is unbelief) will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (Jn 3:36)
Dispensationalism teaches a false gospel that unbelief does not bar from eternal life.
And I know of someone on this thread who does believe this false gospel.
For Hodges, the "gospel is under siege" by those who state (p.3) that
"unless you persevere in good works, you cannot be saved" (Mt 24:13), and
"unless you yield your life to the Lordship of Christ, you cannot be saved" (Mt 7:21).
In Hodges diminished understanding of faith, he always assumes faith is a live faith.
But we find at least five different meanings of faith in the NT, historical (1Co 10:2-5); temporary
(Lk 8:13); miraculous (1Co 13:2; Mt 7:22); symbolic (Heb 9:7-9, 13, 10:4) and salvific (Eph 2:8-9;
Ro 3:25, 9:30).
The first four are not necessarily saving faith, while the fifth one is necessarily saving faith.
But for Hodges, since "faith" always means a live faith, then faith can't be "dead" unless
it was once "alive."
For him, no kind of faith can be dead from its beginning, there can be no counterfeit faith.
So Hodges, the literalist dispensationalist, makes an allegory out of the word "dead,"
comparing it to a human corpse which, though now dead, was once alive (p. 20).
The faith that was once alive (evidenced by good works) can die (evidenced by lack of works).
But therein he contradicts what he elsewhere states--that "faith has nothing to do with works,"
that faith that is alive need not result in any fruit at all.
And for Hodges, not only was the "dead" faith once "alive,"
dead faith results only in physical death, it does not result in eternal death.
Hodges teaches salvation by dead faith (p.23).
Jesus said, "He who perseveres to the end will be saved." (Mt 24:13)
Dead faith is not persevering faith.
This is "another gospel," according to dispensationalism which is, in fact, no gospel at all.
In dispensationalism's other gospel, a person's (counterfeit) faith can totally die, and
he will still have eternal life.
In dispensationalism, dying in unbelief does not bar from eternal life.
Jesus said, "He who does not believe is condemned already," (Jn 3:18); i.e., no eternal life. . .period
. . .not now. . .not at death. . .not ever. . .none. . .nada. . .zip!
The gospel of John states, "Whoever rejects the Son (which is unbelief) will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (Jn 3:36)
Dispensationalism teaches a false gospel that unbelief does not bar from eternal life.
And I know of someone on this thread who does believe this false gospel.
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GreenNnice:
Elin: What do you think I am saying here, el ?
I know, what you might be interpreting from the words, but, what do you think I am saying here even if I am not saying it correctly, not that I am saying it incorrectly.
Ah, not to be tooo rhetorical, I am saying that 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17 is NOT spoken of ANYWHERE in Revelation yet it IS spoken of in 1 Thes. 4. So, what's gives ??? What's right? . . .
WHY is The Rapture mentioned in 1 Thes. 4 but is NOT mentioned anywhere in Revelation ?
That's my simple, simple, simon question to you , el
Elin: What do you think I am saying here, el ?
I know, what you might be interpreting from the words, but, what do you think I am saying here even if I am not saying it correctly, not that I am saying it incorrectly.
Ah, not to be tooo rhetorical, I am saying that 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17 is NOT spoken of ANYWHERE in Revelation yet it IS spoken of in 1 Thes. 4. So, what's gives ??? What's right? . . .
WHY is The Rapture mentioned in 1 Thes. 4 but is NOT mentioned anywhere in Revelation ?
That's my simple, simple, simon question to you , el
What gives is that your uncertain private interpretation of the prophetic riddles of Revelation is incorrect,
because it does not agree with what is certain and unequivocal in the word of God in 1 & 2 Th.
I presented 1Th 4:16-17, 2Th 2:1-4 showing that there is a rapture.
It does show a whole different light on to that time frame doesn't it? Jesus did warn us those things would happen.
But never mind that those things are not really the fulfillment of what John was talking it about.
Never mind mind Peter tells us this which is NEVER brought up yet it points to the end
2 Peter 3
Dear friends,(A) this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders(B) to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets(C) and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.(D)
3Above all, you must understand that in the last days(E) scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.(F) 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised?(G) Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”(H) 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word(I) the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.(J) 6 By these waters also the world of that time(K) was deluged and destroyed.(L) 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,(M) being kept for the day of judgment(N) and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.(O) 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise,(P) as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient(Q) with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.(R)
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.(S) The heavens will disappear with a roar;(T) the elements will be destroyed by fire,(U) and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a](V)
Never mind Jesus says this
Matthew 24
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.(AN)37 As it was in the days of Noah,(AO) so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,(AP) up to the day Noah entered the ark;39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.(AQ)40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.(AR)41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.(AS)
Luke repeats that.
But never mind that those things are not really the fulfillment of what John was talking it about.
Never mind mind Peter tells us this which is NEVER brought up yet it points to the end
2 Peter 3
Dear friends,(A) this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders(B) to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets(C) and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.(D)
3Above all, you must understand that in the last days(E) scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.(F) 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised?(G) Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”(H) 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word(I) the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.(J) 6 By these waters also the world of that time(K) was deluged and destroyed.(L) 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,(M) being kept for the day of judgment(N) and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.(O) 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise,(P) as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient(Q) with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.(R)
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.(S) The heavens will disappear with a roar;(T) the elements will be destroyed by fire,(U) and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a](V)
Never mind Jesus says this
Matthew 24
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.(AN)37 As it was in the days of Noah,(AO) so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,(AP) up to the day Noah entered the ark;39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.(AQ)40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.(AR)41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.(AS)
Luke repeats that.
W
So when in revelations do you think the rapture will occur? I think I understood when you said this before ,but not sure.Rev 6:9 And he had opened the fifth seal I saw under the alter them which were slain for the word of God and the testimony they held. 11 And white robes given them and rest until their fellow servants should be killed as they were should be fulfilled...Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones and them that sat upon them and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,And which had not worshiped the beast,neither his image,neither had received his mark upon their for heads or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished....Rev 20: 11 and I saw a great white throne....12 And I saw the dead both small and great stand before God....13 And the sea gave up the dead....death and hell delivered up the dead....15 and whosoever s names were not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. So if only the martyrs were reigning with Christ and the rest of the dead had not risen this is the only place I can fit in the rapture " when the dead in Christ rise fist and they which are alive are caught up to meet him. This would be all that have died good and bad and those alive who have lived and been born in the thousand years. I think the great multitude in Rev 7:9 that have washed their robs and made them white in the blood of the lamb and are before the throne are the martyrs. Refer d to earlier. And again blessed are the dead which die in the lord hence forth are the martyrs.For right after the earth and the vine are reaped.I think the vine thats reaped are again the martyrs because their death and there blood running out of the wine press evokes the wrath of God. This wine press was trodden without the city as Jesus suffered without the gate and let us come unto him there bearing his reproach I think it says somewhere about the bodies of the beast that where slain were out side the camp????I cant remember but thought it was the beasts to be sacrificed????. Any way where do you think the rapture will occur? Im trying to get it straight and maybe learn something.
No they are not trying to make you any such thing, your the one who says you're a part of 'the rest of us faith alone believers'. The plows are being set and the Seed is being sown! When people have been taught somethings that are not true, and you set your heels in a systematic Theology, that is a lie; how else would you expect people to approach you?
Dispensationalism, is a damnable lie, and a Hugh part of the church must now contend with. You must accept it or reject it, at your own cost, just like every thing else you've come to know about God's kingdom. But their not making this a, 'them us few vs. you the many'. Many Blessings!
Dispensationalism, is a damnable lie, and a Hugh part of the church must now contend with. You must accept it or reject it, at your own cost, just like every thing else you've come to know about God's kingdom. But their not making this a, 'them us few vs. you the many'. Many Blessings!