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S
Yes, but how many divorces among Christians are for that reason? In my experience it's not that many. The most common reason I've seen is because one of them stop following the Faith and eventually want a divorce, but even if the Christian does not want the divorce that does not entitle them to get married again as so many think.
J
John Piper has a pretty good examination of this issue on his website. Divorce & Remarriage: A Position Paper - Desiring God <--- click
Most evangelicals I know won't like what is in it though, since it doesn't treat divorce as a free-for-all.
Most evangelicals I know won't like what is in it though, since it doesn't treat divorce as a free-for-all.
R
The issue of divorce is simple and complex at the same time. We know that God hates it and allows for it only in the case of adultery. However, the word adultery may have a broader application than simply sexual sin. To adulterize something is in essence to corrupt it. For example, in the cases of domestic violence, abandonment or toxic dysfunction. When one partner essentially takes the position that they are not going to make any effort in the relationship and makes the environment unbearable. Under these circumstances some have argued that the covenant has been "adulterized", therefore grounds may exist that are not inconsistent with God's direction or intent. Jesus expressed contempt because men had so abused their power and position that they were putting their wives away for any reason. Now, I recognize that applying a broader definition of "adultery" creates a potentially very slippery slope and it is not nice and neat and tidy as sexual sin, nonetheless because it is difficult does not mean it is not worthy of consideration. Some will say that if these non sexual sin situation exist, the offended party may separate, but not divorce or if they divorce they may not remarry. Again, I believe we must examine the possibility that the practical application lies somewhere between only in cases of sexual sin and a the system that Jesus referenced where people were divorcing for any an all reasons thus making a mockery of marriage.
As for homosexuality... the original poster obviously has an agenda. It is a difficult issue to grapple with. How do you tell 7-10% of the U.S. population that their natural inclinations (or acquired inclinations) are abnormal, sinful and without repentance will lead to condemnation? Surveys show that 70% of people under the age of 25 favor homosexual marriage. This is not wisdom it is indoctrination, however, it will likely make this discussion moot in the next 20 years. Her points about gluttony, gossip and even casual divorce are well taken. The church is far too tolerant of behaviors within the body that are toxic and dysfunctional. These examples, however, should not be used as a way to normalize homosexuality. Scripture is clear that it is unnatural and statistically it is also a deviation from the norm (heterosexuality). The challenge for Christians is to develop and be able to articulate responses to questions posed in favor of homosexuality being a viable lifestyle beyond simply saying "Because the Bible says so". Ultimately that is true, but we should be able to negotiate the questions intelligently and compassionately so that even if we are accused of bigotry we will have put forth compelling reasons for our position. I do not believe that God established prohibitions on behaviors randomly, but rather for our protection. If this is true we should be able to construct positions that reveal that intention. Have a great day!!
As for homosexuality... the original poster obviously has an agenda. It is a difficult issue to grapple with. How do you tell 7-10% of the U.S. population that their natural inclinations (or acquired inclinations) are abnormal, sinful and without repentance will lead to condemnation? Surveys show that 70% of people under the age of 25 favor homosexual marriage. This is not wisdom it is indoctrination, however, it will likely make this discussion moot in the next 20 years. Her points about gluttony, gossip and even casual divorce are well taken. The church is far too tolerant of behaviors within the body that are toxic and dysfunctional. These examples, however, should not be used as a way to normalize homosexuality. Scripture is clear that it is unnatural and statistically it is also a deviation from the norm (heterosexuality). The challenge for Christians is to develop and be able to articulate responses to questions posed in favor of homosexuality being a viable lifestyle beyond simply saying "Because the Bible says so". Ultimately that is true, but we should be able to negotiate the questions intelligently and compassionately so that even if we are accused of bigotry we will have put forth compelling reasons for our position. I do not believe that God established prohibitions on behaviors randomly, but rather for our protection. If this is true we should be able to construct positions that reveal that intention. Have a great day!!
there is only one reason for a valid divorce as jesus says in matthew chapter 5 and chapter 19. all other divorces are not approved by jesus. in fact some people are still married to someone they think they divorced. jesus did not agree they were divorced. that is why it is adultery if either one of them remarry.
R
If a person divorces their spouse for a reason other than physical adultery and marries someone else and then repents for their sin, is their sin forgiven or are they living in a state of sin? Should they then divorce their second spouse because it was spiritually unsanctioned. If their first spouse is still unmarried, should they divorce their second spouse and remarry the first spouse if the person is willing? What about the fact they married the second time, likely consummated the "marriage" therefore committed physical adultery with respect to the first covenant. Is the other spouse now free to remarry since their spouse committed physical adultery even if the original reason they divorced had nothing to do with sexual sin? At what point do we become little different than the lawyers whom Jesus held in contempt? Maybe a better solution should be that churches get more involved in the lives of their congregates and actually provide spiritual guidance, leadership and authority. If a marriage is dysfunctional and heading for divorce and the couple are affiliated with a church should they not seek out guidance from their spiritual leaders? Should not the leadership recognize that the relationship is being impacted by dysfunction and likely unresolved sinful behavior and intervene for the sake of the individuals and the couple/family?
S
It's simple to answer and not at all lawyer like. You have a couple that gets a divorce because of some reason, say because one of them doesn't feel "in love" anymore. This person then remarries and commits adultery (with their new spouse), the person they married is free to get married again because the marriage between them was never valid to begin with. The person that was divorced cannot get remarried if it was a valid marriage to begin with.
Not that hard, even if it was difficult to explain that wouldn't mean it is any less true.
Not that hard, even if it was difficult to explain that wouldn't mean it is any less true.
S
I have a question. . should the church elders ask you to leave if you are a christian couple going through a divorce and ask you to attend another church but tell you once the divorce is over they will welcome you back as a single parent. .
this is happening to a women in my congregation right now. . the elders told her they do not agree with divorce and could not care/cover her while she and her husband went through with this. . as they dont believe in dovorce. . they pointed her to other churches but as I say. did tell her she could return once the divorce was final. . thoughts. .
this is happening to a women in my congregation right now. . the elders told her they do not agree with divorce and could not care/cover her while she and her husband went through with this. . as they dont believe in dovorce. . they pointed her to other churches but as I say. did tell her she could return once the divorce was final. . thoughts. .
R
What do you mean "the marriage between them was never valid to begin with."? If they were married, it was valid. To say because they got divorced because their marriage was not valid to begin with is illogical. That is like saying someone who lives in a completely carnal fashion, but at one time accepted Christ never really accepted Christ because they are now living in a carnal manner. It would be nice if we could use that logic in any number of contexts, but it doesn't work. If you got married, you got married.
R
The elders are morons. They have a few options: 1. If she is pushing the divorce without good cause and is refusing counseling or intervention, they could ask her to leave the church. 2. If she doesn't want the divorce, but the husband is pushing it they should be supportive to her in any way they can. 3. If she is getting divorced because the husband is abusive or has abandoned her and refuses intervention, they should support her.
If they exercise option 1, in the same manner they should exercise it if two people are living together and refuse to stop living in a state of sin, then she would need to repent of her choices and meet with leadership prior to rejoining fellowship.
If they exercise option 1, in the same manner they should exercise it if two people are living together and refuse to stop living in a state of sin, then she would need to repent of her choices and meet with leadership prior to rejoining fellowship.
S
Hmmm . Matthew 18:15-20 talks of 'excommunication' but I am unsure on throwing someone out because the marriage has failed and they are divorcing?
As it happens she has been through a lot of counselling and help. . he has a porn addiction and was mentally neglegent of her and abusive verbally to his step daughter. .
He left the marital home after a long time of this coming and a lot of soul searching
I believe the divorce is amicable
As it happens she has been through a lot of counselling and help. . he has a porn addiction and was mentally neglegent of her and abusive verbally to his step daughter. .
He left the marital home after a long time of this coming and a lot of soul searching
I believe the divorce is amicable
That is true that a lot of people who claim Christ will speak out against homosexuality,and then not speak out against getting a divorce,and some of them have been divorced and remarried,which God said,where 2 are joined together,let no man put asunder,showing how much God looks upon marriage as a bond not to be split.
But a person that claims to be with Christ can divorce and remarry,if their spouse had sexual intercourse with another person,for that person broke the bond between them by having sexual intercourse with another,and then the deal is off if the person wants it that has been cheated on.
But there are people that claim Christ and speak out against homosexuality,but have divorced because of differences,not being able to get along too well,and no cheating went on.
The truth is that when 2 people marry,they are not to get divorced over anything,except cheating,and if it is anything else besides cheating they cannot marry ever again,for anybody they have sex with or anybody their spouse has sex with is adultery and a sin.
If it is not cheating,it is kind of you took a shot,you lost,you do not get another shot,because of the relationship importance of marriage,which is 2 people who love each other,help each other,and has a bond unlike any other 2 people on earth that is not married.
That means you cannot get a divorce if your spouse keeps coming at you with a knife,keeps you broke spending all your cash,and sets fire to the house with you and the kids in it,which is plenty of reason to divorce in the world,but God says,no divorce,but you can separate and get away from your spouse,but you are still married.
But since they are still married while separated,someone could think,I hope they cheat on me and tell me to rub it in my face,so I can divorce,which since they are fleshy,it is bound to happen that one of them has sexual intercourse while separated.But if you think I hope they cheat on me,it would seem like a sin.
There are many people who claim Christ as Lord,that are fleshy,which they have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God,worldliness,which you can see,so they might have quite a few divorces among those people,but they get lumped together with all Christianity,and it makes Christianity look hypocritical because of their divorce among other things.
The truth is all fighting comes from the flesh and not the Spirit,so if they are really with the Lord there is nothing to fight about,and be at odds about.Marriage will work out fine with the Lord.If they are fleshy they will speak out against homosexuality,but not divorce if they been divorced,seeing they justify they did no wrong,or believe they can remarry over petty squabbles.
A person can remarry,if their spouse cheats on them,or if their spouse dies.
The truth is if 2 people marry and divorce,then it shows the character of at least one of them,or both of them,that they are selfish and not really committed to another person,but basically think of them selves over their spouse,instead of them being equal and one flesh.
But some people haste marriage without getting to know the person,and then find out later that person is not the special person they made themselves out to be,but there is no excuse for they picked,and their fault because they should of inspected the merchandise longer,and I don't mean sexually.
But a person that claims to be with Christ can divorce and remarry,if their spouse had sexual intercourse with another person,for that person broke the bond between them by having sexual intercourse with another,and then the deal is off if the person wants it that has been cheated on.
But there are people that claim Christ and speak out against homosexuality,but have divorced because of differences,not being able to get along too well,and no cheating went on.
The truth is that when 2 people marry,they are not to get divorced over anything,except cheating,and if it is anything else besides cheating they cannot marry ever again,for anybody they have sex with or anybody their spouse has sex with is adultery and a sin.
If it is not cheating,it is kind of you took a shot,you lost,you do not get another shot,because of the relationship importance of marriage,which is 2 people who love each other,help each other,and has a bond unlike any other 2 people on earth that is not married.
That means you cannot get a divorce if your spouse keeps coming at you with a knife,keeps you broke spending all your cash,and sets fire to the house with you and the kids in it,which is plenty of reason to divorce in the world,but God says,no divorce,but you can separate and get away from your spouse,but you are still married.
But since they are still married while separated,someone could think,I hope they cheat on me and tell me to rub it in my face,so I can divorce,which since they are fleshy,it is bound to happen that one of them has sexual intercourse while separated.But if you think I hope they cheat on me,it would seem like a sin.
There are many people who claim Christ as Lord,that are fleshy,which they have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God,worldliness,which you can see,so they might have quite a few divorces among those people,but they get lumped together with all Christianity,and it makes Christianity look hypocritical because of their divorce among other things.
The truth is all fighting comes from the flesh and not the Spirit,so if they are really with the Lord there is nothing to fight about,and be at odds about.Marriage will work out fine with the Lord.If they are fleshy they will speak out against homosexuality,but not divorce if they been divorced,seeing they justify they did no wrong,or believe they can remarry over petty squabbles.
A person can remarry,if their spouse cheats on them,or if their spouse dies.
The truth is if 2 people marry and divorce,then it shows the character of at least one of them,or both of them,that they are selfish and not really committed to another person,but basically think of them selves over their spouse,instead of them being equal and one flesh.
But some people haste marriage without getting to know the person,and then find out later that person is not the special person they made themselves out to be,but there is no excuse for they picked,and their fault because they should of inspected the merchandise longer,and I don't mean sexually.
S
It's simple. If they got a divorce that had no real grounds they are still married to their first spouse in the eyes of God so even if they "remarry" they are still married to their first spouse and they are not married to their second spouse in the eyes of God. What they may have is a valid civil marriage, but they do not have a valid marriage in the eyes of God. To say otherwise would make God a polygamist.
T
First of all, let me say that I am thrilled that this seems to be getting so much discussion. I have not had a chance to read all the responses yet, but I appreciate everyone who took the time to respond, and what I have seen so far seems to be respectful, arguing ideas rather than attacking individuals. Thank you so much for showing such Christian love, even in disagreement.
Well, I think spousal abuse is a great reason for divorce. But no where in the Bible does it say this, verbatim. That's just the point. If we say that the Bible is our SOLE authority, then spousal abuse is NOT a valid reason to get divorced. On the other hand, if we take the Bible not as a word-for-word dictation, but as a more general guide, a "love letter," if you will, think of this: We know that God wants the best for us. We know that God would not want a person to be in a relationship where they were being hurt, physically or emotionally. So, while the never says that divorce is okay in cases of abuse, we can use the logic and the love God gave us to recognize that "WWJD" is probably to say it's okay.
I don't think it's un-Christian to go outside the Bible for answers. The entire "What Would Jesus Do" question assumes that not every situation you need may be written in the Bible. Jesus didn't tell us what to do for everything. Sometimes we need to look at a situation and say, Okay, the Bible doesn't really say in this particular case, so let's use the logic and the love God gave us to figure it out.
I'm just pointing out that no one can live their life by "sola scriptura." At least, not if they're being honest about it. If you come to the same conclusions through logic and love that you have, fine, but admit that it comes from your own logic and love, don't claim you have biblical authority for something that isn't addressed in Scripture. That is my point.
Well, I think spousal abuse is a great reason for divorce. But no where in the Bible does it say this, verbatim. That's just the point. If we say that the Bible is our SOLE authority, then spousal abuse is NOT a valid reason to get divorced. On the other hand, if we take the Bible not as a word-for-word dictation, but as a more general guide, a "love letter," if you will, think of this: We know that God wants the best for us. We know that God would not want a person to be in a relationship where they were being hurt, physically or emotionally. So, while the never says that divorce is okay in cases of abuse, we can use the logic and the love God gave us to recognize that "WWJD" is probably to say it's okay.
I don't think it's un-Christian to go outside the Bible for answers. The entire "What Would Jesus Do" question assumes that not every situation you need may be written in the Bible. Jesus didn't tell us what to do for everything. Sometimes we need to look at a situation and say, Okay, the Bible doesn't really say in this particular case, so let's use the logic and the love God gave us to figure it out.
I'm just pointing out that no one can live their life by "sola scriptura." At least, not if they're being honest about it. If you come to the same conclusions through logic and love that you have, fine, but admit that it comes from your own logic and love, don't claim you have biblical authority for something that isn't addressed in Scripture. That is my point.
R
Then it seems to me, based on your description, that the elders are still morons. I mentioned the notion of asking her to leave the church based on the Matt 18 model of addressing sinful/dysfunctional behavior within the church family. It does not sound that she was rejecting or resisting counseling or potential restoration of the relationship, but that he was unwilling to bring his behaviors under control. It is easy and weak to come up with some supposed middle ground solution like it appears the elders are trying to do, but they are throwing her under the bus while hiding behind some convoluted notion of system integrity. She may be better off leaving if this is a reflection of their spiritual discernment and leadership.
T
Both.
Even if homosexuality is a sin, I don't understand why non-Christians should not receive the legal rights that are given by marriage.
Actually, what I would like is to get rid of the word "marriage" altogether. The word has too much "baggage." I think too many Americans associate it with matrimony -- which IS instituted by God -- and I totally get why Christians say gays can't engage in holy matrimony. That makes total sense to me. But "marriage" doesn't mean "matrimony." Unfortunately, no one gets that, so we need to throw that word away, because clearly trying to educate the public hasn't worked. Couples who want to be married in the church, receive a union in God's eyes, receive the rite of Holy Matrimony. Gays don't partake in this. Neither do atheist heterosexuals. Why would they? Couples who want the legal, state-given rights associated with "marriage" would also go to a justice of the peace and get a civil union. A couple could do both, if they wanted to, or one or the other, or neither. This is how most other countries work. Couples need to go to court in addition to the church wedding if they want to be legally married, or they can just go to court and skip the fancy church wedding (many do this). If you just do a church wedding, you're not legally married.
Now, as for hypocrisy, yes, it bugs me when some fancy-pants televangelist preaches about the sin of homosexuality. Jesus spoke against wealth way more than he spoke against sexual sins. That doesn't mean promiscuity is okay, just because Jesus didn't talk about it all the time. I think promiscuity is wrong, whether it's homo- or heterosexual. The problem is, among my friends, the straight ones are way more promiscuous than the gay ones, and somehow a lot of them think that the sexual laws in Scripture don't apply to them, just to gays. That's my beef.
Sorry, but I just can't give you a simple yes or no. That's not in my nature
Even if homosexuality is a sin, I don't understand why non-Christians should not receive the legal rights that are given by marriage.
Actually, what I would like is to get rid of the word "marriage" altogether. The word has too much "baggage." I think too many Americans associate it with matrimony -- which IS instituted by God -- and I totally get why Christians say gays can't engage in holy matrimony. That makes total sense to me. But "marriage" doesn't mean "matrimony." Unfortunately, no one gets that, so we need to throw that word away, because clearly trying to educate the public hasn't worked. Couples who want to be married in the church, receive a union in God's eyes, receive the rite of Holy Matrimony. Gays don't partake in this. Neither do atheist heterosexuals. Why would they? Couples who want the legal, state-given rights associated with "marriage" would also go to a justice of the peace and get a civil union. A couple could do both, if they wanted to, or one or the other, or neither. This is how most other countries work. Couples need to go to court in addition to the church wedding if they want to be legally married, or they can just go to court and skip the fancy church wedding (many do this). If you just do a church wedding, you're not legally married.
Now, as for hypocrisy, yes, it bugs me when some fancy-pants televangelist preaches about the sin of homosexuality. Jesus spoke against wealth way more than he spoke against sexual sins. That doesn't mean promiscuity is okay, just because Jesus didn't talk about it all the time. I think promiscuity is wrong, whether it's homo- or heterosexual. The problem is, among my friends, the straight ones are way more promiscuous than the gay ones, and somehow a lot of them think that the sexual laws in Scripture don't apply to them, just to gays. That's my beef.
Sorry, but I just can't give you a simple yes or no. That's not in my nature