Do Animals Enter Condemnation or Paradise?
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Useful commentary:
Ecclesiates 3 (18-21) The common fate of animals and humans under the sun.
I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.” For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?
a. Concerning the condition of the sons of men… they themselves are like animals: Solomon looked at life among both humans and animals, and also compared their deaths – doing so in under the sun, absent eternity terms. On this basis, he could say that there is little difference in the life and destiny between humans and animals.
i. They themselves are like animals: “The pronoun is repeated emphatically, ‘that they themselves are [like] beasts, they in themselves.’” (Deane)
ii. “In their context these verses say that God makes all sensible people realize that they are as much subject to death as is the animal world.” (Wright)
b. As one dies, so dies the other: The Preacher thought of an animal dying and its body decomposing. Then he thought that by all outward appearance, the same happens to a human body. Therefore, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.
i. “The distinction between man and beast in annulled by death; the former’s boasted superiority, his power of conceiving and planning, his greatness, skill, strength, cunning, all come under the category of vanity, as they cannot ward off the inevitable blow.” (Deane)
ii. This is no argument for the doctrine of annihilationism, the idea that the unrighteous dead simply cease to exist, either immediately or after some time of punishment. It is no argument for two reasons. First, Solomon spoke here as a man unconvinced of eternity and the meaning it brings to life. Second, we believe what 2 Timothy 1:10 says: that Jesus brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. The understanding of the afterlife is cloudy and uncertain in the Old Testament, but much clearer in the New Testament.
c. Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth: We sense that the Preacher hoped there was a different destiny between people and animals. Yet in his under the sun thinking, there was no real reason to believe it – so, “Who knows”?
i. “What is meant by ‘upward’ and ‘downward’ may be seen by reference to the gnome in Proverbs 15:24, ‘To the wise the way of life goeth upward, that he may depart from Sheol beneath.’” (Deane)
ii. “The Teacher is speaking phenomenologically, i.e., as things appear to the senses.” (Wright)
https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/ecclesiastes-3/
Ecclesiates 3 (18-21) The common fate of animals and humans under the sun.
I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.” For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?
a. Concerning the condition of the sons of men… they themselves are like animals: Solomon looked at life among both humans and animals, and also compared their deaths – doing so in under the sun, absent eternity terms. On this basis, he could say that there is little difference in the life and destiny between humans and animals.
i. They themselves are like animals: “The pronoun is repeated emphatically, ‘that they themselves are [like] beasts, they in themselves.’” (Deane)
ii. “In their context these verses say that God makes all sensible people realize that they are as much subject to death as is the animal world.” (Wright)
b. As one dies, so dies the other: The Preacher thought of an animal dying and its body decomposing. Then he thought that by all outward appearance, the same happens to a human body. Therefore, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.
i. “The distinction between man and beast in annulled by death; the former’s boasted superiority, his power of conceiving and planning, his greatness, skill, strength, cunning, all come under the category of vanity, as they cannot ward off the inevitable blow.” (Deane)
ii. This is no argument for the doctrine of annihilationism, the idea that the unrighteous dead simply cease to exist, either immediately or after some time of punishment. It is no argument for two reasons. First, Solomon spoke here as a man unconvinced of eternity and the meaning it brings to life. Second, we believe what 2 Timothy 1:10 says: that Jesus brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. The understanding of the afterlife is cloudy and uncertain in the Old Testament, but much clearer in the New Testament.
c. Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth: We sense that the Preacher hoped there was a different destiny between people and animals. Yet in his under the sun thinking, there was no real reason to believe it – so, “Who knows”?
i. “What is meant by ‘upward’ and ‘downward’ may be seen by reference to the gnome in Proverbs 15:24, ‘To the wise the way of life goeth upward, that he may depart from Sheol beneath.’” (Deane)
ii. “The Teacher is speaking phenomenologically, i.e., as things appear to the senses.” (Wright)
https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/ecclesiastes-3/
What is the meaning of the verse that says the spirit of animals go downward to the Earth?
This means they don't go to heaven. They go back to God but don't go up. It makes sense since God is omnipresent. We just don't know if God will ressurect them. All we know is that there will be animals in the new Earth.
This means they don't go to heaven. They go back to God but don't go up. It makes sense since God is omnipresent. We just don't know if God will ressurect them. All we know is that there will be animals in the new Earth.
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Perhaps the animals also have the law written on there hearts lol. we know there is scripture saying the animals hear Gods voice, we know that much. and we know God made green plant food for all animals, but yet many animals have disobeyed this. It could be said the reason why there isnt any bibles written in animal language is because man can not interpretate animal language. thus it was only noah who could talk to the animals. one thing is clear tho Dogs seem to know write from wrong. the hard part to work out if animals where all made to eat green plant food, how come there born with carnivore teeth, then theres the venomous creatures or deadly poisonous creature then theres the stone cold killers of the deep waters, i dont think there is any animals who eat green food with carnivore teeth. We also have scripture that says the only clean animals are the ones that chew the cud. so perhaps something went wrong with the creation of animals cross breeding or something else. its a wierd one.
Some people say some animals where created as carnivore for control of nature by God. like to many fish eating to much planctum in the oceans is not benficial to nature (planctum is needed for regeneration of plant life etc and more. So god created whales and sharks to keep them from over populating. same for on land God created animals of carnivore nature so that not to much green food gets eaten (which is needed for survivlal of our plannet). its a wierd one.
Some people say some animals where created as carnivore for control of nature by God. like to many fish eating to much planctum in the oceans is not benficial to nature (planctum is needed for regeneration of plant life etc and more. So god created whales and sharks to keep them from over populating. same for on land God created animals of carnivore nature so that not to much green food gets eaten (which is needed for survivlal of our plannet). its a wierd one.
the word "like" is not in the text. that's why it's italicized. it's something a translator added to the scripture.
a translator who was apparently uncomfortable with what the scripture literally says.
i can go look up commentaries too, but it's not a useful thing to do.
we have the word of God, that i put, and the word of men, that you put.
God says we are animals. people, who sin, say they are better than animals, who do not sin.
what differentiates us is that God gave Adam authority & dominion over the other kinds of living souls, setting him in a high station. what 'in the image of God' means has nothing to do with whether other animals lack spirits or souls: they do not; they are living souls, and the have the same breath of the spirit of life that we do, and their bodies are made of dust just like ours.
they don't reject their Creator; we do.
a translator who was apparently uncomfortable with what the scripture literally says.
i can go look up commentaries too, but it's not a useful thing to do.
we have the word of God, that i put, and the word of men, that you put.
God says we are animals. people, who sin, say they are better than animals, who do not sin.
what differentiates us is that God gave Adam authority & dominion over the other kinds of living souls, setting him in a high station. what 'in the image of God' means has nothing to do with whether other animals lack spirits or souls: they do not; they are living souls, and the have the same breath of the spirit of life that we do, and their bodies are made of dust just like ours.
they don't reject their Creator; we do.
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ma'am, i'm giving you scripture.
you are giving me your human opinion and other human opinions.
so which one of us is 'believing things just to make themselves feel good' ?
i feel absolutely terrible about this. it means that sinless, innocent souls experience death not because of their own sin, but because of ours. that's not exactly a 'feel-good' truth, but it is the truth.
your opinion, on the other hand, is very reassuring. you can feel nothing towards all the other living souls because you tell yourself it's meaningless, that God only created them in order to destroy them. you can smash a racoon with a shovel and have no remorse, because of the opinion you have.
you are giving me your human opinion and other human opinions.
so which one of us is 'believing things just to make themselves feel good' ?
i feel absolutely terrible about this. it means that sinless, innocent souls experience death not because of their own sin, but because of ours. that's not exactly a 'feel-good' truth, but it is the truth.
your opinion, on the other hand, is very reassuring. you can feel nothing towards all the other living souls because you tell yourself it's meaningless, that God only created them in order to destroy them. you can smash a racoon with a shovel and have no remorse, because of the opinion you have.
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Ma'am, animals are not capable of sin. They are created with instinct, not self-awareness.
I don't "feel nothing" about animals. I have two rotties whom I love dearly and will miss a great deal when they die. They are my "children". I also feed a homeless cat and have a very large feeding area for birds in my garden. I feel a great deal for animals. I just don't pretend they are anything like humans. They feel, for sure, but they do not have an eternal spirit like man who is made in the image of God.
I don't "feel nothing" about animals. I have two rotties whom I love dearly and will miss a great deal when they die. They are my "children". I also feed a homeless cat and have a very large feeding area for birds in my garden. I feel a great deal for animals. I just don't pretend they are anything like humans. They feel, for sure, but they do not have an eternal spirit like man who is made in the image of God.
Nor did post say that animals were capable of sin. Quite the contrary.
Your red herrings are showing to argue against something that was not even said.
@posthuman , this person presumably has me on ignore since she went running in fear to the mod when I told them shortly after they joined that they reminded me of a recently banned poster, so it is unlikely they will see or respond to the points I make. Could you... ?
Your red herrings are showing to argue against something that was not even said.
@posthuman , this person presumably has me on ignore since she went running in fear to the mod when I told them shortly after they joined that they reminded me of a recently banned poster, so it is unlikely they will see or respond to the points I make. Could you... ?
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may i remind you, and this is by no means the only place that it's written:
God says they are living souls.
God says they return to Him when their bodies die.
being made in the image of God does not give us exclusive access to having a spirit or a soul.
this isn't coming from me. it's what the word of God says.
so your position has opinion, and my position has the scripture.
All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life
(Genesis 7:22)
God says animals have the same spirit that humans have. (Genesis 7:22)
God says they are living souls.
God says they return to Him when their bodies die.
being made in the image of God does not give us exclusive access to having a spirit or a soul.
this isn't coming from me. it's what the word of God says.
so your position has opinion, and my position has the scripture.
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