Do Dispensationalism and Free-will Salvation question God's providence?

[Mammachickadee]

Just for the record - if I am the horribly deceptive false teacher that you suggest - Jimmy DeYoung and I are colleagues. He is a co-founder of the ministry I currently direct (The Alliance for Biblical Integrity) and I also direct his graduate program in advanced eschatological studies. We regularly teach together and I regularly do interviews with him - as I did yesterday. We agree 99.9% of the time on every theological question. We have worked together for 20 years as he was a guest teacher in the Bible institute I directed in Hungary for 16 years (until Feb 2009).

And, Howard Hendricks was my first teacher at DTS in Bible Study Methods.

Just a point of interest to break the unfortunate tension: I teach in the Philippines at least once a year at the Word of Life Camp about an hour south of Manila in Laguna province. Between January 2012 and February of this year, I was in the Philippines 3 times in 13 months - and am returning in January to do a pastors conference - on the gospel.

Definitely a titter moment... but only proves that he is a direct influence on either your opinion or your understanding... not always meaning you agree with him on everything and vice versa. Must be fun.
Interesting note: I was home-schooled my entire life and took Abeka Book's course on Bible doctrines... taught by none other than Pastor Jim Schettler.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, the comment about dispensationalists not having the balls to say God failed IS highly inflamatory, and I meant to direct disrespect (though it would seem objection was unavoidable). My statement was based on the belief that OT sacrifice and the keeping of Mosaic law was part of salvation in the Old Testament. The very fact that dispensationalists no longer believe this is a time to keep the Mosaic law supports the fact that they believe God changed His terms.

Not to be snide. But this does not make sense.

How can the fact that I, WHO never believed this, believe God changed his terms?

As we have seen Scofield (who many claimed was one of the the fathers of dispensationalsim) did not even believe this.

What you are saying just does not make any sense. and I am not trying to be mean, just honest.

Perhaps I should share a bit of my background...
I was born into a Bible-believing home (hardly a perfect or peaceful one) and was raised mostly in Baptist churches. To say living in my family was easy because we were Christians is laughable. We changed churches many times because at some point either the church we were attending backslid or a pastor would begin to insist that my parents be members of the church before they could teach, minister, or even sing in the choir. (that is a story for a later day) Predominately the churches we attended were Baptist... and, after Sunday after Sunday of listening to the same sermon as my parents and discussing the possible views included, I concluded as a teenager that churches were full of nothing but hypocrites and usually unloving people who were only there to play their version of Christian Bingo: to systematically fill in the numbers called and eventually score the big prize. Cynical... waaaaaaaaaay too much. Inaccurate... not completely, though blown out of proportion. Pastor after pastor would preach the same type of message: man has to CHOOSE to obey God; man has to SURRENDER to God... with little to no mention of relying on God's timing, love, and sanctifying power.
These were my experiences which led me at that time to believe that most churches today preach that man as to do most of the work and that our focus should be on what we are doing everyday be it right or wrong. Total man-centered theology. Then came my understanding of free-will salvation. Though most would not say baptism was required for salvation, they put way too much emphasis of methodism and were borderline legalistic. The phrase "accept God into your heart" was used over and over and over again. Sure I'd made a childhood confession of faith... but mostly as fire insurance to get out of hell and the judgementalism of the church folk.
I will skip most of my past life as a legal adult, but I will say that while living in great sin I still listened to and understood every word of every sermon... to the conclusion that life was a rat race, and if even my parents who required SO MUCH of their youngest daughter couldn't even keep from calling each other names, making threats, and using their kids as vindictive means for revenge, I would be no worse off just living my life for myself. I was kicked out of college; moved out of my parent's home; was kicked out of the church I was a member of (the same one my parents had been attending); and promptly began a physically immoral life that eventually led to pregnancy and marriage. (another long story for a later time) Through it all, though, my head was always clear and my hide was always spared by a very merciful and provident God. If free-will salvation were true in my case, I could not possibly be saved.
It really didn't take much to bring me back to Himself. To this day I still deal with the same sexual desires and temptations; still attend church with trepidation and scepticism (only so far as to make me dissect every word said and rightly divide the Word of Truth); and still have an understanding that it all is going somewhere and will end somewhere.
I'm a firm believer in making no excuses; keeping no secrets; showing no hatred; taking no judgementalism; hiding no opinions; and having no regrets. To this day I do not regret any decision I made in the past because it made me the person I am today (some might consider that a pity) with the knowledge and understanding that I carry equipping me to be a debater (faulty one at times), counselor, mother, and wife. Sure, I'm still human with past hurts from my family that are hard to erase at times... but God had a plan for everything from the beginning. Perhaps it was to land me here. Undoubtedly it was to begin the family that is begun (a God-given desire). Miracles do indeed happen.

Sounds like we grew up in the same baptist churches.

Although I had a few good teachers in my churches. (my favorite was a guy who came from dallas theological seminary) most were fire and brimestone teachers.

Which is where my hate of legalism comes from..

 

[Mammachickadee]

Is it wrong to have an ill opinion of a certain denomination simply because they has such a poor influence on you in the past? No offense to Baptists but there's more than one joke about them thinking they are the only ones going to heaven... and way too many of them have some of the worst infighting imaginable.
To remain objective, however, even the OPC church I attended for quite a while had had a falling out... only over the commercializing, diluting, and marketing methods of Christianity being used. (insert reference to the differences within denominations, and even within Presbyterian churches... ie PCA, PCUSA, OPC etc.) Any church that centers on man rather than God is doomed to have trouble staying together.

 

[Mammachickadee]

Currently my husband and I take our family to a nearby Vineyard church. I have yet to do my homework on their background and constitution... but so far they definitely don't soft-shoe around proper doctrine OR politics. They don't pray every Sunday for the leaders of our nation as commanded, but they are very vocal concerning specific policies, happenings, and people in government and throughout the world being wrong. Would love some insight if anyone has an objective understanding of their theology. So far they have been very emphatic about not being free-will salvation (something I personally prefer in a church), and their entire process- though often entertaining, comical, and somewhat commercial at times- is far from taking away from God; lacking in worship and focus of God; or worried about being pc.

 

[Hoffco]

LOL This is great, an old time reunion, really, Praise God. I am an old friend of ,aquntance, at the least, of Jimmy Deyoung. I have worked on his house 30yrs a go in Schroon Lake n>Y> Jack wyrtzen is my Spiritual father, in a back handed way, He taught me wrong but Jesus got me strightened out. Jack .once told me, Doug I used to preach like you, but Charles Ryrle talk me not to preach repent and obey just trust Jesus. Paul Bubar, is another father of mine. still today he is one on my closest friends. rember Jerry and jerry. George Malkamites. Sud buzzal LoL i can't spell We don't have to agree to be blood brothers and sisters in Christ. The Judgment seat of Christ will take care of all our differences. Meanwhile ,You do your thing and I will do my thing for Jesus,.

 

[djames1958]

Yes, the comment about dispensationalists not having the balls to say God failed IS highly inflamatory, and I meant to direct disrespect (though it would seem objection was unavoidable). My statement was based on the belief that OT sacrifice and the keeping of Mosaic law was part of salvation in the Old Testament. The very fact that dispensationalists no longer believe this is a time to keep the Mosaic law supports the fact that they believe God changed His terms.

Obviously God did change his terms (not with regard to salvation) or you would still be offering sacrifices and not be able to eat shrimp - or wear 60-40 polyester / cotton clothes. He changed his terms when he instituted the eating of meat and capital punishment in Genesis 9. He did change his terms when Adam and Eve were no longer able to eat of the Tree of Life. He did change his terms when he promised to never destroy the world by Flood again. He did change his terms when he created a new nation through Abraham through whom the Messiah would come. He did change his terms when he gave the Holy Spirit on Pentecost to indwell believers. He will change his terms when Christ is ruling on the earth from Jerusalem. The list goes on and on. But this has nothing to do with salvation - nor does it have to do with God changing in his nature and character.

If your age is correct, then at 26 you're still very young - and your experience, though it feels like a lot - is still very limited in many ways. There are good churches and good Bible teachers and good pastors and good Christians who are not hypocrites. You're too young to allow yourself to become defined by a cynical / skeptical view - just learn to be both kind and careful - and the Lord will take care of the rest.

Also, while I'm sure you know a lot about Scriptures, again you're still young - so you have time to arrive at firm convictions on things like dispensationalism versus covenant theology - or 5pt Calvinism, etc. Don't dig yourself into holes where you have to eat a lot of crow on your way back out - that gets old for you and everyone else.

Make sure you make wise decisions about which hills you're willing to die on - and at 55 years old, I can tell you that although my theology is as strong and conservative as it has ever been, the number of hills that I think are worth dying on is somewhat less than it was 20 years ago. Find the right balance between being teachable and having convictions - and remember that a gentle answer turns away wrath.

And finally, sometimes the most honest, effective and powerful phrase you can have in your toolbox is, "I don't know for sure."

I trust the Lord will bless you as you continue to grow in him and are conformed to the image of his Son.

Dave

 

[zone]

Currently my husband and I take our family to a nearby Vineyard church. I have yet to do my homework on their background and constitution... but so far they definitely don't soft-shoe around proper doctrine OR politics. They don't pray every Sunday for the leaders of our nation as commanded, but they are very vocal concerning specific policies, happenings, and people in government and throughout the world being wrong. Would love some insight if anyone has an objective understanding of their theology. So far they have been very emphatic about not being free-will salvation (something I personally prefer in a church), and their entire process- though often entertaining, comical, and somewhat commercial at times- is far from taking away from God; lacking in worship and focus of God; or worried about being pc.

Vineyard Movement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Vineyard_Churches

The Cults and the Charismatic Church

 

[djames1958]

Currently my husband and I take our family to a nearby Vineyard church. I have yet to do my homework on their background and constitution... but so far they definitely don't soft-shoe around proper doctrine OR politics. They don't pray every Sunday for the leaders of our nation as commanded, but they are very vocal concerning specific policies, happenings, and people in government and throughout the world being wrong. Would love some insight if anyone has an objective understanding of their theology. So far they have been very emphatic about not being free-will salvation (something I personally prefer in a church), and their entire process- though often entertaining, comical, and somewhat commercial at times- is far from taking away from God; lacking in worship and focus of God; or worried about being pc.

The Vineyard Church is largely a product of the Jesus Movement of the 70s. When it started out, they didn't want to be identified as Charismatic - but rather as "an evangelical church of signs and wonders." However, as time went by, they couldn't maintain that distinction and developed into one of the most radical charismatic groups - at least in some churches - such as in Toronto - where the airport church became the home of the Toronto blessing - with its holy laughter that morphed into holy animal noises - barking like dogs, growling like lions, etc. This also morphed into more extreme stuff like "vomiting in the spirit" (it's true in some churches). The Kansas City Prophets - Bob Jones (not BJU) and Paul Cain - were Vineyard churches - and home to some of the most extreme cases of claims of extra-biblical revelation with Paul Cain being one of the major prophets - until it was later discovered that he was a homosexual and was living a double life.

The Vineyard churches began as something of an offshoot of what have today become Calvary Chapel churches. At the time John Wimber (Vineyard) and Chuck Smith (Calvary chapel) largel parted ways - and Wimber and C. Peter Wagner began teaching a course on signs and wonders at Fuller Theological Seminary. John Wimber has since died, but C. Peter Wagner is now the leading figure in the New Apostolic Reformation movement which includes some of the most extremely heretical teaching of this generation - that includes Dominionism and Reconstructionism. It has it's roots in Latter-Rain theology, a heretical movement that developed in the 40s and 50s. Some of them believe that God is raising up an army of super-soldier Christians (Manifest Sons of God theology) to forcefully bring the kingdom of God to the earth.

So, I would suggest extreme caution - as Vineyard churches have been the hotbed of some of the worst doctrines and practices to hit Christendom in the last 30+ years.

 

[djames1958]

LOL This is great, an old time reunion, really, Praise God. I am an old friend of ,aquntance, at the least, of Jimmy Deyoung. I have worked on his house 30yrs a go in Schroon Lake n>Y> Jack wyrtzen is my Spiritual father, in a back handed way, He taught me wrong but Jesus got me strightened out. Jack .once told me, Doug I used to preach like you, but Charles Ryrle talk me not to preach repent and obey just trust Jesus. Paul Bubar, is another father of mine. still today he is one on my closest friends. rember Jerry and jerry. George Malkamites. Sud buzzal LoL i can't spell We don't have to agree to be blood brothers and sisters in Christ. The Judgment seat of Christ will take care of all our differences. Meanwhile ,You do your thing and I will do my thing for Jesus,.

I was saved in 1984 and attended the BI in Schroon Lake in 1985-86 with my wife.

Paul Bubar is a very close and dear friend - I just saw him in Hungary in May. I served with his son, Dan, in Hungary, until he was killed in 1996.

I was the dean of men at the Bible institute from Dec 1987 to August 1990. We served with Word of Life from Dec 1987 until February 2009, with 16 years as a missionary in Hungary. Even though I am no longer with WOL as a staff member, I teach in a Word of Life Bible Institute somewhere in the world generally 4-5 times a year - U.S., Canada, Hungary, Ukraine, Philippines, S. Korea and other countries on occasion.

 

[Mammachickadee]

Obviously God did change his terms (not with regard to salvation) or you would still be offering sacrifices and not be able to eat shrimp - or wear 60-40 polyester / cotton clothes. He changed his terms when he instituted the eating of meat and capital punishment in Genesis 9. He did change his terms when Adam and Eve were no longer able to eat of the Tree of Life. He did change his terms when he promised to never destroy the world by Flood again. He did change his terms when he created a new nation through Abraham through whom the Messiah would come. He did change his terms when he gave the Holy Spirit on Pentecost to indwell believers. He will change his terms when Christ is ruling on the earth from Jerusalem. The list goes on and on. But this has nothing to do with salvation - nor does it have to do with God changing in his nature and character.

If your age is correct, then at 26 you're still very young - and your experience, though it feels like a lot - is still very limited in many ways. There are good churches and good Bible teachers and good pastors and good Christians who are not hypocrites. You're too young to allow yourself to become defined by a cynical / skeptical view - just learn to be both kind and careful - and the Lord will take care of the rest.

Also, while I'm sure you know a lot about Scriptures, again you're still young - so you have time to arrive at firm convictions on things like dispensationalism versus covenant theology - or 5pt Calvinism, etc. Don't dig yourself into holes where you have to eat a lot of crow on your way back out - that gets old for you and everyone else.

Make sure you make wise decisions about which hills you're willing to die on - and at 55 years old, I can tell you that although my theology is as strong and conservative as it has ever been, the number of hills that I think are worth dying on is somewhat less than it was 20 years ago. Find the right balance between being teachable and having convictions - and remember that a gentle answer turns away wrath.

And finally, sometimes the most honest, effective and powerful phrase you can have in your toolbox is, "I don't know for sure."

I trust the Lord will bless you as you continue to grow in him and are conformed to the image of his Son.

Dave

Let no man mock my youth. I'm old enough to know that defending my knowledge in spite of my youth is like a sparrow chasing off a crow... But correction is in order. Age has NOTHING to do with a person's ability to have firm faith or a knowledge of the Bible. The Bible was written by God, and one who sticks to an proper interpretation of both the word and the meaning of the scriptures will have the wisdom of the ages (for what it's worth in the mind of a faulty and fickle human).
Didn't God tell a certain someone that eating forbidden foods was okay simply because avoiding them was an issue? (rhetorical question) The directives in the Mosaic covenant were confined to the Jews and released at the fulfilling of the Messiah's first coming. This is not God changing His methods. Even at the time of the Mosaic law there were Christian gentiles who ate shrimp and did a host of other things that the Israelites considered horrid. Were they any less Christian? Hardly. God actually made more Gentiles justified than Jews. That begs the question, though... should we eat shrimp? They are bottom-feeding scavengers with potentially high mercury levels and currently are VERY expensive where I live and have very little nutritional value in comparison to white meats such as salmon. I submit to anyone else who lives where shrimp are expensive that, if one has to re-budget their entire month's grocery list just to enjoy 1 meal including shrimp, eating shrimp is an indulgence that should be foregone for the sake of using God's money as frugally as possible. I admit I gulp on that one, cause I love me some shrimp cocktail.
The Holy Spirit was not new to Christianity upon Pentacost. The Holy Spirit has always been part of salvation since the dawning of time. It's the Holy Spirit's role to convict and even harden the hearts of those who God wishes to use. Only believers actually have the Holy Spirit in their heart, though He is the part of the trinity that is a human's conscience when they know what they are doing is wrong. Yes, unbelievers have something of a conscience... though their revelations are not always those leading to salvation. The Father does "Fatherly things"; the Spirit does the "Spiritual/heart and mind things"; the Son is the Prophet, Priest, King, Lamb, and Gift. They have all been one God... and God never changes.

 

[Mammachickadee]

The Vineyard Church is largely a product of the Jesus Movement of the 70s. When it started out, they didn't want to be identified as Charismatic - but rather as "an evangelical church of signs and wonders." However, as time went by, they couldn't maintain that distinction and developed into one of the most radical charismatic groups - at least in some churches - such as in Toronto - where the airport church became the home of the Toronto blessing - with its holy laughter that morphed into holy animal noises - barking like dogs, growling like lions, etc. This also morphed into more extreme stuff like "vomiting in the spirit" (it's true in some churches). The Kansas City Prophets - Bob Jones (not BJU) and Paul Cain - were Vineyard churches - and home to some of the most extreme cases of claims of extra-biblical revelation with Paul Cain being one of the major prophets - until it was later discovered that he was a homosexual and was living a double life.

The Vineyard churches began as something of an offshoot of what have today become Calvary Chapel churches. At the time John Wimber (Vineyard) and Chuck Smith (Calvary chapel) largel parted ways - and Wimber and C. Peter Wagner began teaching a course on signs and wonders at Fuller Theological Seminary. John Wimber has since died, but C. Peter Wagner is now the leading figure in the New Apostolic Reformation movement which includes some of the most extremely heretical teaching of this generation - that includes Dominionism and Reconstructionism. It has it's roots in Latter-Rain theology, a heretical movement that developed in the 40s and 50s. Some of them believe that God is raising up an army of super-soldier Christians (Manifest Sons of God theology) to forcefully bring the kingdom of God to the earth.

So, I would suggest extreme caution - as Vineyard churches have been the hotbed of some of the worst doctrines and practices to hit Christendom in the last 30+ years.

Interesting. This particular church is quite tame in comparison to some of the apostolic and fully (as in this is spooky) charismatic churches I have been exposed to. Though they do have a period during the praise and worship at the end of the service where those who desire to be prayed over and anointed can come forward, there is nothing even hinting of false teaching or doctrines of the devil. They quite literally, every Sunday, begin with a song or two, move to a couple of announcements, review the verse selected to be learned as a congregation, does a little visual of something humorous pertaining to the sermon (currently working through Judges), and dives in. After the service they have a time during the singing where people can pray at the front in camp-meeting style either alone or with someone from the "prayer team" and others can be prayed over and anointed. There is nothing I perceive as unbiblical in anything they do except, perhaps, the fact they have a coffee shop there in the church. That is no different from having a church book store like Falls Baptist Church does in WI (and a plethora of other churches). One could argue that the merchandise is of different pertinence to one's Christian walk, though. I must say that I appreciate their selection of music. Though they rarely play hymns the praise music that they lead the congregation in is not of the commonplace and shallow "Jesus Is My Boyfriend" concepts that is all too common in contemporary churches. What isn't taken directly from Scripture is in no way lacking in God's worship and is in no way man-honoring. Most of the songs I have to use my background in music theory to sing because they are wholely unfamiliar, so I cannot attest to a knowledge of the writers and commercial performers being godly persons of righteous intentions.

 

[djames1958]

Let no man mock my youth. I'm old enough to know that defending my knowledge in spite of my youth is like a sparrow chasing off a crow... But correction is in order. Age has NOTHING to do with a person's ability to have firm faith or a knowledge of the Bible. The Bible was written by God, and one who sticks to an proper interpretation of both the word and the meaning of the scriptures will have the wisdom of the ages (for what it's worth in the mind of a faulty and fickle human).

The quote is "Don't let anyone despise your youth, but be an example of the believers in faith, love, purity...."

I hope you don't think I was mocking. Neither was I suggesting that you can't have a tremendous amount of knowledge based on your knowledge of the Scriptures. It was intended to be an encouraging admonition, not a put down - and I apologize if I said it in such a way that made it appear differently than I intended.

I was saved at age 26, so you're probably way ahead of where I was at that time.

Of course, the Holy Spirit was always involved in salvation - but what happened on Pentecost was a new thing. As Paul puts it in Ephesians 4, there is now neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ - but one new man. That one new man is Christians. Again, there were no Christians prior to Pentecost. There were Jewish believers and Gentile believers. Now, all believers in this age are Christians. Again, Christianity began at Pentecost - as believers are now baptized into the Body of Christ - which was not true prior to Pentecost. You're mixing terminology.

In theory, parents don't have to change either, but as their children go through different stages in life, the rules and responsibilities change. Not the moral rules, but the way things are done. The word dispensation comes from the Greek word oikonomos, which is the stewardship or administration of a household.

From as much confusion as there seems to be, it sounds like most of your information is coming from secondary sources, rather than from dispensationalists, themselves (i.e., primary sources). That will almost always leave you with some inaccurate information - which seems to be the case.

 

[Mammachickadee]

The quote is "Don't let anyone despise your youth, but be an example of the believers in faith, love, purity...."

I hope you don't think I was mocking. Neither was I suggesting that you can't have a tremendous amount of knowledge based on your knowledge of the Scriptures. It was intended to be an encouraging admonition, not a put down - and I apologize if I said it in such a way that made it appear differently than I intended.

I was saved at age 26, so you're probably way ahead of where I was at that time.

Of course, the Holy Spirit was always involved in salvation - but what happened on Pentecost was a new thing. As Paul puts it in Ephesians 4, there is now neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ - but one new man. That one new man is Christians. Again, there were no Christians prior to Pentecost. There were Jewish believers and Gentile believers. Now, all believers in this age are Christians. Again, Christianity began at Pentecost - as believers are now baptized into the Body of Christ - which was not true prior to Pentecost. You're mixing terminology.

In theory, parents don't have to change either, but as their children go through different stages in life, the rules and responsibilities change. Not the moral rules, but the way things are done. The word dispensation comes from the Greek word oikonomos, which is the stewardship or administration of a household.

From as much confusion as there seems to be, it sounds like most of your information is coming from secondary sources, rather than from dispensationalists, themselves (i.e., primary sources). That will almost always leave you with some inaccurate information - which seems to be the case.

Oh I know you weren't... but my involuntary perception before giving you the benefit of a doubt was to insist that my age is irrelevant. Do ones level of experience really matter very much if one acts out of reverence to God? True, a measure of experience can make the correct action or response come more quickly in certain situations.
The churches I've been taught by were largely of dispensationalist theology. Though my parents are not dispensationalists, their small town location required they take the "lesser evil" if you would. They went with what they had. Even from the pulpit pastors would one minute discuss "this dispensation" and the next refer to a moment in the OT when God did exactly as He does today. To this affect I know what current dispensationalism believes. Still, the principle that God does not change has to be at the forefront.
When you say there were no Christians.... what is your definition of Christian? Please do explain that, because by today's standards you might be saying that no one was a believer with the Holy Spirit before Pentacost.

 

[Hoffco]

Hi djames1958 ,Dave, I live in Chestertown for 64yrs. If I saw your picture and you mine, I bet you would recognize me and I you. I pastored the Adirondack Union church, (Adir. Bible Ch.) for many yrs. celebrated 125 yrs. in 2006. I was widowed, Beth Anne died in 2007. came to Philippine and married Imelda. Is David Peterson still the pastor of Mountian side Bible Chapel? We loved Pastor Bob, and wife Ruth' Camilary Bill bowman, great friend , Bob Mettee ? Pastor Roger Elison , never liked my theo.. Great memories. The bear man, ? Frank Cavoli so many friends, .

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

For the theology of the Vineyard Church, simply email...

info @ vineyardusa.org

...without the spaces and ask for 'The Association of Vineyard Churches Theological and Philosophical Statement' and they'll send it to you by email.

If you want to read a book about Vineyard theology read 'The Kingdom of Christ: The New Evangelical Perspective' by Russell D. Moore.

They are one of the churches I have membership with. I get around.

 

[Mammachickadee]

For the theology of the Vineyard Church, simply email...

info @ vineyardusa.org

...without the spaces and ask for 'The Association of Vineyard Churches Theological and Philosophical Statement' and they'll send it to you by email.

If you want to read a book about Vineyard theology read 'The Kingdom of Christ: The New Evangelical Perspective' by Russell D. Moore.

They are one of the churches I have membership with. I get around.

Thank you for the info. Is it typical of Vineyard churches to be as I described?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I've had church membership with various denominational and non-denominational churches over the past twenty five years I've been a Christian and attended services at many others as well.

During that time, I've been a member of a Vineyard Church for several years and met some deeply spiritual Christian people. I've also met some really shallow ones too though... lol.

The Vineyard Church is not a cult. They are a neo-charismatic evangelical Christian denomination and their theology aligns with the essentials of Christian doctrine without exception placing them firmly inside the scope of orthodoxy.

Each Christian association has a particular DNA, if you will, comprised of what they focus on from scripture and their practices. Vineyard services are Pentecostal and their doctrinal emphasis is around living out Christ daily as a member of God's kingdom. They try to live out first century Christianity as they understand it in my observation.

Thank you for the info. Is it typical of Vineyard churches to be as I described?

 

[Mammachickadee]

Djames? your last name wouldn't happen to be after D. James Kennedy, would it?

 

[Hoffco]

A big problem with dispensationalism is , they teach the church of Christ never existed before Christ. But Christ taught that He has one one flock, John 10 one assemble of believers, followers,His elect of all ages are one in Himself, one body. Every Old Testament believer in Heaven are in and were in Christ before the foundation of the world. They didn't know they were to be saved by the blood of Christ and not the O.T. sacrifices. When Christ comes back He will rapture His Church, all the believers from Adam and eve to the last one saved that day. The dispensations are all united under the theme of the whole Bible THE ETERNAL COVENANT OF GOD'S GRACE. I will develop this fact later, time for a nap. Be blessed of God, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

The over all theme of the Bible is: GOD'S ETERNAL COVENANT OF GRACE. Others have presented about the same theme ,using the words : God's covenant of salvation, the covenant of redemption, The story of salvation, or any number of other suggestions. The discussion of the theme of the Bible is important to our discussion of Dispensationalism to see if we can find a common tread, theme, running through out the whole Bible. After 52 yrs of Bible study I see Grace is the common theme in the whole bible. Grace is the only term used in the bible that is broad enough that it can not be challenged by any other word in the Bible. But the common meaning of grace is not broad enough to meet the challenge.The Bibles definition of grace is twofold: 1. the Bible teaches that grace is the power of God to change the sinner into a saint. 2. The Bible also teaches that grace is God's Mercy to forgive sin. In order to be willing to accept this definition of grace you have to willing to challenge the common meaning of grace,which is: God's undeserved mercy. I use two acrostics with the word grace to teach this claim. 1. God's Recreation at Christ's Energizing and 2. God's Riches At Christ's Expense The first one is my invention but the 2nd one is not mine. Much of the error on salvation teaching comes from a false definition of grace, as mercy only. If we accepted the true,two fold, meaning of grace we would not think so shallowly about being born again. The common meaning of the new birth is just being accepted into the family of God, by means of our acceptance of free salvation , the forgiveness of our sins by receiving Jesus as our savior. Justification is presented as the whole of our salvation and being transformed into the image of God by the imparting of a new nature to over rule our sinful nature is diminished to something not worthy of mentioning. Salvation is viewed as a new position but nothing is said of our new condition. Conversion is belittled as a mere receiving of grace, undeserved mercy. More later. Hoffco