Do our churches include man made dogma?

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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,645
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#21
So without scripture telling you if Christ rose on Saturday or Sunday, you "know"!! Remarkable.

Do you think it would change how the world was created if we knew what day Christ rose?
all right, I'll use your logic, how do you know Christ rose on the Sabbath? since no one ( human ) was there.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,645
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#22
Not correct. The sixth day, is the day on which Jesus was crucified (morning sacrifice, aka '9AM') and dies 6 hours later (evening sacrifice, aka '3PM'), not only in prophecy, but also in typology and historically. Jesus rested in the grave on the 7th day as at Creation, eternally adjoining Redemption to it, and rose upon the 'fist [day] of the week', before sunrise (I have a pretty good idea exactly when too, based upon scripture, but that is not really necessary).

[the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD thy God]

Jesus at Lazarus' house in Bethany [Mt. Olivet] – [John 12:1]

[the first [day] of the week]

Jesus Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem, "the next day" from leaving Lazarus' house, Hosanna! - [John 12:12,13; Matthew 21:10; Mark 11:11], goes to the Temple, and after looking around, leaves, since it was close to evening back out unto Mt. Olivet.

[the second [day] of the week]

Jesus comes back, curses the fig tree, goes to the Temple, and cleanses the Temple for the Second [last] time of the Money Changers - [Matthew 21:12,13,17; Mark 11:12,15,16,17,19], and Jesus goes back out.

[the third [day] of the week]

Jesus comes back, the Fig tree is withered up from the roots, goes to the Temple, and has the final teachings to the Pharisees, etc - [Matthew 21:18,23; Mark 11:20,27].

This was the "two days" before the "Passover" - [Matthew 26:1-2; Mark 14:1; Luke 21:37-38, 22:1].

Jesus tells the Jewish nation, that their house is forever left desolate, no more fruit again - [Matthew 23:37-39; Luke 13:32-35].

Jesus said, that He still had to do "cures" and "cast out devils" "to day, tomorrow and the third day" and be done - [Luke 13:32,33]

Jesus had been "daily" in the Temple - [Matthew 26:55; Mark 14:49; Luke 19:47, 22:53; John 18:20]

[the fourth [day] of the week]

The "tomorrow" [Luke 13:32,33]

[the fifth [day] of the week]

The "Third Day" [Luke 13:32,33], being done.

[the sixth [day] of the week; preparation]

Gather twice as much, Christ Jesus the anti-typical Manna, Exodus 16:25,26

The "spices" "had been" [Mark 16;1] purchased sometime after the Crucifixion and before burial so that they could "prepare" [Luke 23:56] them to bring on the "first [day] of the week" [Luke 24:1], even as we see Joseph of Arimathaea doing for the linen - [Mark 14:46]

1st Evening Part - [Matthew 26:31,34; Mark 14:27,30]
1st Morning [Light] Part - [Matthew 27:21; Mark 15:1]

Abib/Nisan 14th; Christ Jesus our Passover is Sacrificed for us - [1 Corinthians 5:7],

[the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD thy God]

Jesus remained in the Tomb all Sabbath - anti-type Manna - Exodus 16:29,30

The Disciples were keeping the Sabbath according to the Commandment - [Exodus 20:8-11; Luke 23:54,56]

2nd Evening and 2nd Morning Parts - [Matthew 27:58-66, 28:1; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:52-53,54; John 19:38-42]

Abib/Nisan 15th - Seasonal Feast Sabbath [First Day of Unleavened Bread, without corruption] - [Leviticus 23:5-8]

[the first [day] of the week]

Christ Jesus, preserved and Risen - Anti-type Manna - Exodus 16:32-34

3rd Evening and 3rd Morning Parts, Christ Risen and shown alive - [Matthew 28:1-10; Mark 16:2-20; Luke 24:1-29; John 20:1-23]

Abib/Nisan 16th; Christ the Firstfruits/Wavesheaf Offering, Anti-Type Resurrection - [1 Corinthians 15:20,23].

Jesus was walking with the disciples on the Road to Emmaus on the "first [day] of the week", as the day was closing out, being "the third day since these things" were done [Luke 24:21],

[the second [day] of the week]

Jesus was still walking with the two disciples on the Road to Emmaus as the first [day] of the week was closing, and it becomes Evening - [Luke 24:29,35, etc]
congrats on writing your own Scripture. that is the most speculative piece of propaganda I have ever seen.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,542
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#23
No doubt our KJV Bibles are different in the Old testament from that which Yeshua Himself used (Isaiah scroll). For one, the LATIN word LUCIFER would not have been in the Hebrew Torah for 2 reasons.

1. is obvious since the Hebrews call Satan the Adversary.

2. And Latin did not exist around when Isaiah wrote Isaiah, which was in 100% Hebrew!!


Of course there are many examples of scripture tampering.



So, what does it create when we read these add on's?

1. Personal point of view, possible agenda, not many could read to challenge it, one can only speculate as to the why it was done.

So, outside of us maybe getting someones personal view of God, it has been a useful tool to gather those who never read the scripture by blindly accepting the preachers word as if it was God Himself talking.

Some stories are the reason people got saved. And maybe the Holy Spirit will reveal to them to understand and learn the truth for themselves.

But just maybe a personal view that is not the inspired WORD of God being read [that is an add on], might be the way the Adversary can trick believers by twisting the scripture. Because, If we don't have actual word for word inspired of God scripture, the Adversary could actually trick us with the TRUTH!!

:(
Soooo, since we don't have the originals, we are hopeless? Are you saying, the almighty God who gave us His word did not preserve His word for future generations? I'm not in agreement with that.

The same God who gave us His word has preserved it for us today to live by, every word. Our God is able. Don't let education, Greek or Hebrew, talk you out of believing every word. Jesus Himself translated the originals into copies in other languages.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,542
3,503
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#24
Of course the KJV does not always reflect God's word. It was written during the time nations were killed Jews just because they were Jews and the KJV reflects that. For example in the gospels the word Passover is changed to Easter. God gave us Passover, Easter is a word from a much later period.

The men who set up the policies of our church today were men from a era filled with idol worship, philosophy, and mythology. They took over leadership of the Christian church from men who knew scripture--they didn't know scripture. God does not disagree with God and God is one, not an old and a new God. As in mythology they made our glorious God the Father into a vengeful mean old man who had to have a progressive kind new God take over.
Ahhh, the ole passover argument arises again. Been there, debunked that...
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
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#26
Its not scripture that is the problem.

Its the one reading it that is the problem.

John 5:39-40
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#27
Scripture back up please on the first day of the week being the Lord's day? I only one I know of is that scripture says that the discovery the Christ was gone from the grave was made on the first day. To discover is not to designate a Sabbath, discovery is discovery.

Scripture tells us of feasts to be celebrated by all generations. It is God who gives scripture and we have only one God giving one message not different Gods in different ages. Our God is eternal, the same at all times.
A good way in finding out what God of the O.T., and Messiah of the N.T. sez?

"Fast read" through the O.T., and pausing in those passages where God is directly quoted!
Same with Messiah's quotes, in the N.T.!
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
543
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#28
I think they do. When I found that Paul, especially, did not agree with other biblical scripture as my church explained him, I searched for the truth. I knew that scripture was from one God who never changed, so when I found disagreement I knew I was wrong about something.

I had to go into history to find the answer. History is very clear about who added to scripture and why they added it. The letters and life of Constantine is necessary reading, as Constantine relates to our church today. Studying these early church fathers is not for learning about God, but for understanding how their interpretations were wrong because they do not agree with scripture.

The Christians were in the minority at that time, idol worship, myology, and philosophy was the norm, and the early church fathers reflect that. The Jews knew scripture, they didn't. The Jews were a minority people looked down on.

So our churches squabble about law, they only celebrate added holidays reflecting the pagan holidays, they change scripture by tossing most of the OT into Judaism they toss out.
As you can see by the opinion icons attached to your OP , you may consider committing to a search of Bible scholarship as pertains to the study of your question.
In short answer to it, yes.
Research Soteriology and Ecclesiology, as a start. https://www.google.com/search?q=dr....a&oq=dr.+dan+wallace+man+made+dogma+&ie=UTF-8
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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#29
Yes - unless they are full preterist - dispensationalist based churches are the worst.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,424
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#31
Hey! Bilk... PTL!
We all, every person and denomination, have error or dogma or incorrect doctrines. We are commanded to study scripture, looking for the truth that is seen through a glass darkly. Even when the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to us, we still only get to know it in part. The truth and error both feel exactly the same. And sadly, we are unable to discern between what we were taught by man verses what the Holy Spirit has himself revealed to us. If any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. Who would be that one who has the most truth in their doctrines? Probably, the one who walks in obedience and has memorized the most scripture over time, and who doesn't read anything other than the scripture.
Is 28: 9, 10 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." This tells me that its better to read three chapters a day in devotions with the Lord, than it is to read thirty chapters, once a week. imo...
Maranatha!
Right on!!! So much time has gone by since Moses listened to God and wrote what God said, and the time of Jesus that we have a hard time understanding what they meant by what they said. We need accurate history of those times as well as a thorough knowledge of scripture.

The men who worked with the dead sea scrolls discovered that the OT did have necessary messages to us today and they learned a lot about ancient thinking. Paul used OT as proof texts in all he wrote, and it was the custom in those days to give just enough to tell the listeners what scriptures he referred to. Listeners were expected to know or look up the entire text.

If every denomination today had a complete grounding in the ways of God as the Torah gives it, then realized it is the same God who gave us Christ, there would be agreement.

Understanding the OT would include why the flood, why the dietary rules, what is meant by circumcision, why the wars, why the death sentences.
 

PyongPing

Active member
Oct 9, 2018
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#32
congrats on writing your own Scripture.
That is a false accusation. Please demonstrate, specifically, and immediately, where I "wr[ote] [my] own Scripture", or withdraw the claim.

that is the most speculative piece of propaganda I have ever seen.
That is not refutation of the source material I provided in its chronoloigal order. It is simply the fallacy of hand-waving and bluster. That words proceeded from your heart to your fingers, does not mean you addressed, neither refuted, nor demonstrated wherein I am in error in any way whatsoever, in what was provided. It does mean one of two things for you however.
 

MichaelOwen

Senior Member
Nov 6, 2017
909
252
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#33
That is a false accusation. Please demonstrate, specifically, and immediately, where I "wr[ote] [my] own Scripture", or withdraw the claim.

That is not refutation of the source material I provided in its chronoloigal order. It is simply the fallacy of hand-waving and bluster. That words proceeded from your heart to your fingers, does not mean you addressed, neither refuted, nor demonstrated wherein I am in error in any way whatsoever, in what was provided. It does mean one of two things for you however.
That sounds like a self righteous attitude coming out to me. ^
 

PyongPing

Active member
Oct 9, 2018
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#34
That sounds like a self righteous attitude coming out to me. ^
Psa_11:2 For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.

Psa_94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.

Psa_28:7 The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.
 

MichaelOwen

Senior Member
Nov 6, 2017
909
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#35
Psa_11:2 For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.

Psa_94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.

Psa_28:7 The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.
So you choose to hide behind scripture to escape what you really want to say?
 

PyongPing

Active member
Oct 9, 2018
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#36
So you choose to hide behind scripture to escape what you really want to say?
Mar_4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mar_4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Mar_7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
 

MichaelOwen

Senior Member
Nov 6, 2017
909
252
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#37
Mar_4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mar_4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Mar_7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Do you have the ears to hear what the Holy Spirit says?
 

PyongPing

Active member
Oct 9, 2018
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#38
Do you have the ears to hear what the Holy Spirit says?
Psa 17:1 A Prayer of David. Hear the right, O LORD, attend unto my cry, give ear unto my prayer, that goeth not out of feigned lips.
Psa 17:2 Let my sentence come forth from thy presence; let thine eyes behold the things that are equal.
Psa 17:3 Thou hast proved mine heart; thou hast visited me in the night; thou hast tried me, and shalt find nothing; I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress.
Psa 17:4 Concerning the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer.
Psa 17:5 Hold up my goings in thy paths, that my footsteps slip not.
Psa 17:6 I have called upon thee, for thou wilt hear me, O God: incline thine ear unto me, and hear my speech.
Psa 17:7 Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust in thee from those that rise up against them.
Psa 17:8 Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,
Psa 17:9 From the wicked that oppress me, from my deadly enemies, who compass me about.
Psa 17:10 They are inclosed in their own fat: with their mouth they speak proudly.
Psa 17:11 They have now compassed us in our steps: they have set their eyes bowing down to the earth;
Psa 17:12 Like as a lion that is greedy of his prey, and as it were a young lion lurking in secret places.
Psa 17:13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:
Psa 17:14 From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes.
Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
 

MichaelOwen

Senior Member
Nov 6, 2017
909
252
63
#39
Psa 17:1 A Prayer of David. Hear the right, O LORD, attend unto my cry, give ear unto my prayer, that goeth not out of feigned lips.
Psa 17:2 Let my sentence come forth from thy presence; let thine eyes behold the things that are equal.
Psa 17:3 Thou hast proved mine heart; thou hast visited me in the night; thou hast tried me, and shalt find nothing; I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress.
Psa 17:4 Concerning the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer.
Psa 17:5 Hold up my goings in thy paths, that my footsteps slip not.
Psa 17:6 I have called upon thee, for thou wilt hear me, O God: incline thine ear unto me, and hear my speech.
Psa 17:7 Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust in thee from those that rise up against them.
Psa 17:8 Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,
Psa 17:9 From the wicked that oppress me, from my deadly enemies, who compass me about.
Psa 17:10 They are inclosed in their own fat: with their mouth they speak proudly.
Psa 17:11 They have now compassed us in our steps: they have set their eyes bowing down to the earth;
Psa 17:12 Like as a lion that is greedy of his prey, and as it were a young lion lurking in secret places.
Psa 17:13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:
Psa 17:14 From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes.
Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

This is an obvious attempt to rebuke....but copying and pasting scriptures is not going to help your cause. Your attitude has already been put on display for the whole thread to read. Christ still loves you though
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,645
6,276
113
#40
That is a false accusation. Please demonstrate, specifically, and immediately, where I "wr[ote] [my] own Scripture", or withdraw the claim.

That is not refutation of the source material I provided in its chronoloigal order. It is simply the fallacy of hand-waving and bluster. That words proceeded from your heart to your fingers, does not mean you addressed, neither refuted, nor demonstrated wherein I am in error in any way whatsoever, in what was provided. It does mean one of two things for you however.
anyone who preaches anything but salvation through faith and belief in Christ is a false teacher.

I know all the judeaizer tricks- Jesus was crucified on wed. , rose on the Sabbath. " we keep all the words of God ". the catholic church invented sun. worship.

all these are just tricks and lies. just your " list " of scripture you made earlier.