Do people think we have to become Hebrew to relate to God?

[Married_Richenbrachen]

I think I understand what you're getting at, but when Christians, or the Pharisees of today (i.e. those who call themselves Jews), claim that Jesus was a Jew (i.e. a descendant of Judah), it implies that He was a Pharisee like (i.e. having the same thinking and beliefs of) today's Jews, when the Pharisees were and still are the children of the devil.

Hence my preference to say "Jesus was a Judahite, or Judean, or descendant of Judah", and my aversion to say Jesus was a Jew.

 

[homwardbound]

And there is no Jew, Greek
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

those that believe are one
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The only separation is flesh Spirit that is selfish from any race or creed, and is what everyone is first =born here on earth with selfishness and is of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Please let us all not have divisions, in Jesus, we are all loved the same in God through Christ, thanks

 

[thecreationtutor]

Jesus would have aligned with the Pharisee's because He believed in the resurrection. The Pharisee's were nationalistic because of the Maccabees rebellion, when the temple was defiled - they were doing right in the sight of the law - as best they could. Remember there was no Holy Spirit to convict and convince of sin - especially in a period of silence from God,

We often want to paint the Pharisee's as horrible people - when they were lost sinners like us without Christ. What happened to the party of the Pharisee's - they became Christian for the most part - this led to a lot of what Paul had to write against, because like sheep we go astray to what we have known most of our unregenerate life

We all have Pharisee tendencies, especially in church - especially to look down on other people and think that we are esteemed higher than them

 

[JaumeJ]

So in a nutshell Yeshua, Who is God, would align with flesh? This sounds wrong, totally. Even today, He is not aligned with any theology. His Word stands as given 2000 years ago and much before.

Jesus would have aligned with the Pharisee's because He believed in the resurrection. The Pharisee's were nationalistic because of the Maccabees rebellion, when the temple was defiled - they were doing right in the sight of the law - as best they could. Remember there was no Holy Spirit to convict and convince of sin - especially in a period of silence from God,

We often want to paint the Pharisee's as horrible people - when they were lost sinners like us without Christ. What happened to the party of the Pharisee's - they became Christian for the most part - this led to a lot of what Paul had to write against, because like sheep we go astray to what we have known most of our unregenerate life

We all have Pharisee tendencies, especially in church - especially to look down on other people and think that we are esteemed higher than them

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What happened to the party of the Pharisee's - they became Christian for the most part

A lot of speculation in that comment...

 

[p_rehbein]

So in a nutshell Yeshua, Who is God, would align with flesh? This sounds wrong, totally. Even today, He is not aligned with any theology. His Word stands as given 2000 years ago and much before.

Just my thoughts here, so don't anyone go ballistic, but I don't think God would align with anyone......rather we/they would align with Him.............His teachings and such..........One point is true though, there were those of the Pharisee Sect who became believers and were part of the church in Jerusalem........but if memory serves me well this AM, they were the ones who wanted to teach that Gentiles had to obey the Laws of Moses unto Salvation..............and Peter, Paul, and other Apostles spoke out quickly against this...............and thank God they did.........(ok, that's my opinion......)

If you think about it.......this meeting of the church at Jerusalem as recorded in Acts 15, may well have been the 1st great debate of LAW vs. GRACE.......... ..............and it's been going on ever since......

I side with Grace, BUT, that being said..............I also believe that all Christians are to accept and obey the 10 Commandments.......and the Two Great Commandments given by Jesus............and, again, that's just my opinion........

WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE, AND THAT A GIFT OF GOD............!

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

We often want to paint the Pharisee's as horrible people - when they were lost sinners like us without Christ. What happened to the party of the Pharisee's - they became Christian for the most part - this led to a lot of what Paul had to write against, because like sheep we go astray to what we have known most of our unregenerate life

I have to disagree a little with this. The Pharisees were the ones that invented ways to nullify God's laws. Jesus Himself rebukes them for adding to the Sabbath laws, and taking from the honour thy father and mother law. According to Michael Hoffman, they even invented ways by which they were allowed to sacrifice their children to demons.

I'm not saying that Jesus can't save even the most sinful of us (He saved me!), but the Pharisaic beliefs were a particularly wicked brand of evil. Look at their efforts when Jesus rose from the dead. Instead of clasping their hands to their mouths and repenting in dust and ashes, they bribe the Roman guards to tell people the disciples stole Jesus body while they slept. They even go so far as to try to silence his disciples as they performed miracles and proclaimed Jesus (look at Peter and John).

While some Pharisees such as Nicodemus loved Jesus (and I believe found salvation in Him), I wouldn't say the bulk of them accepted him. Who else was it that opposed the early Church, and even oppose us to this day with their false doctrines and lies?

 

[homwardbound]

Jesus would have aligned with the Pharisee's because He believed in the resurrection. The Pharisee's were nationalistic because of the Maccabees rebellion, when the temple was defiled - they were doing right in the sight of the law - as best they could. Remember there was no Holy Spirit to convict and convince of sin - especially in a period of silence from God,

We often want to paint the Pharisee's as horrible people - when they were lost sinners like us without Christ. What happened to the party of the Pharisee's - they became Christian for the most part - this led to a lot of what Paul had to write against, because like sheep we go astray to what we have known most of our unregenerate life

We all have Pharisee tendencies, especially in church - especially to look down on other people and think that we are esteemed higher than them

only if one lives by the flesh, and not the Spirit of God

 

[homwardbound]

I have to disagree a little with this. The Pharisees were the ones that invented ways to nullify God's laws. Jesus Himself rebukes them for adding to the Sabbath laws, and taking from the honour thy father and mother law. According to Michael Hoffman, they even invented ways by which they were allowed to sacrifice their children to demons.

I'm not saying that Jesus can't save even the most sinful of us (He saved me!), but the Pharisaic beliefs were a particularly wicked brand of evil. Look at their efforts when Jesus rose from the dead. Instead of clasping their hands to their mouths and repenting in dust and ashes, they bribe the Roman guards to tell people the disciples stole Jesus body while they slept. They even go so far as to try to silence his disciples as they performed miracles and proclaimed Jesus (look at Peter and John).

While some Pharisees such as Nicodemus loved Jesus (and I believe found salvation in Him), I wouldn't say the bulk of them accepted him. Who else was it that opposed the early Church, and even oppose us to this day with their false doctrines and lies?

Is this nothing other than the fight between flesh self and Spirit of God?
And is the same today as was then?

 

[nathan3]

There's no way I can becoming Hebrew because i was born Italian

 

[homwardbound]

There's no way I can becoming Hebrew because i was born Italian

No, correct as is what is of flesh is truth and what is of Spirit is truth as well. But we can be a child of the living God if we seek this from God personally. It is God that gives and we receive. So ask God and wait, and read, while waiting from God to receive the new life here and now that Christ came to give you if you have not already received this from God. John 10:10

 

[thecreationtutor]

A lot of speculation in that comment...

Who do we think created all the problems for paul?

 

[thecreationtutor]

So in a nutshell Yeshua, Who is God, would align with flesh? This sounds wrong, totally. Even today, He is not aligned with any theology. His Word stands as given 2000 years ago and much before.

rather than summarize what you think i mean i'll say it plainly - they believed in a resurrection, they believed messiah was coming, they observed the Law - though they did add to the law - i don't mean perfectly

 

[thecreationtutor]

Something I didn't want to create another post but say this

People tend to think Christianity is not enough, or they are not willing to walk by faith. Many times someone will tell another person some information they may never had known, like say what a jewish holiday or something means, and it seems that at times people get an inordinate desire to learn things to satisfy what is lacking. While I am not downing learning, I do down learning for learning sake. I see it in the chat rooms as well

hope that makes sense

 

[homwardbound]

Who do we think created all the problems for paul?

Hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I see those under the curse of the law, maybe!

[h=3]Acts 18:12-17[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat, [SUP]13 [/SUP]saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And when Paul was now about to open his mouth, Gallio said unto the Jews, If it were a matter of wrong or wicked lewdness, O ye Jews, reason would that I should bear with you: [SUP]15 [/SUP]but if it be a question of words and names, and of your law, look ye to it; for I will be no judge of such matters. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And he drave them from the judgment seat. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things.

 

[homwardbound]

Something I didn't want to create another post but say this

People tend to think Christianity is not enough, or they are not willing to walk by faith. Many times someone will tell another person some information they may never had known, like say what a jewish holiday or something means, and it seems that at times people get an inordinate desire to learn things to satisfy what is lacking. While I am not downing learning, I do down learning for learning sake. I see it in the chat rooms as well

hope that makes sense

Are you talking about the difference of Flesh Spirit and God's Spirit of life?

 

[Quickfire]

I have been wondering this as some of the threads, and people I meet on the highways and byways. Isreal as a nation was from the Mosaic law and ceremonial law from the exodus on. Abraham, Melchizedek, Job, Isaac, and Jacob, Adam, Eve, Noah, Enoch where not Hebrew, in that sense. They lived out the revelation that God had given them at that time.

Israel was to prefigure Christ's coming, etc, but Christ is here, do we need to emulate life prior to Christ in order to know Him, or are we filled with the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things?

Col 2:16
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

If they want to celebrate that, have at it.

It seems however that it can lead to an elitism attitude, like they really know what it's all about from special information or something. I am not saying this is the case at all times, but it's definitely a possibility.

I went to a messianic service, and the pastor completely ignored me, but conversed with my friends who had Jewish backgrounds. He knew them, but I was completely new, and he didn't know if I was saved or not.


Is living in light of the revelation of the Holy Spirit, the inner man, so hard that we think if we do these Sabbaths and feasts etc we will know what the Holy Spirit cannot teach? Is that looking for a spiritual experience that fades away a day or two after the festival, or looking for the living active presence of the Holy Spirit who helps us worship in spirit and in truth as much as/as often as we desire?

well if you really want to know, Why dont you grow a beard and learn how to speak hebrew, lol you have herd this on your usa highways and byways you must have some brave hebrews where you live, but to answer your question ,, Yes,, haha ill see you in the nut house next year...

 

[TheAristocat]

It seems however that it can lead to an elitism attitude, like they really know what it's all about from special information or something. I am not saying this is the case at all times, but it's definitely a possibility.

I went to a messianic service, and the pastor completely ignored me, but conversed with my friends who had Jewish backgrounds. He knew them, but I was completely new, and he didn't know if I was saved or not.

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience at a Messianic Jewish synagogue. I think when anyone aspires to follow a worthy and honorable code there is always potential for an elitist attitude. How would you view a "Christian" who lived a homosexual lifestyle, watched horror movies, liked Halloween, wore immodest clothing, believed in sex before marriage, never went to church because they believed they could find God while meditating in nature and they viewed your concept of obedience to New Testament rules as funny, antiquated, backward or a curse? (I have met people like this)

Now if the leader of the synagogue did purposely ignore you then there's a good chance he was not behaving in accordance with God's regulations. For they state to love your neighbor as you love yourself. Messianics do not take the Old Testament and throw the New out the window. They accept both. The rules they live by are therefore more inclusive. So it's not that obeying God's laws somehow hurts his creation. I've never understood this frame of mind.

If you want an example, though, holding yourself to a higher code of honor can make you notice the difference in the way others behave. You start to notice all of the little things they're doing that don't make sense. Then you begin to take note of what's wrong with it. This is what leads to an elitist frame of mind - not necessarily the Law itself. Correlation does not imply causation. If you want to fully obey God's laws you inevitably have to recognize this frame of mind in yourself and make the decision to pour the majority of your efforts into the two greatest laws in the Law - the laws of love. For they are the most worthy of your efforts. And when one has obeyed the laws for a certain length of time they learn obedience and sacrifice and obeying the laws of love becomes a little easier because it is no longer a question of emotions or feelings; it's a question of obedience, which has become well-practiced. This is my opinion.

 

[JaumeJ]

Christianity without the faith of Abraham can never be enough, just as Messianic Judaism withou the faith of Abraham will never be enough.

What is enough is reading the Word, hearing Jesus (Yeshua), believing Him, and doing what follows suit in believing Him. May I hear an amen?

Something I didn't want to create another post but say this

People tend to think Christianity is not enough, or they are not willing to walk by faith. Many times someone will tell another person some information they may never had known, like say what a jewish holiday or something means, and it seems that at times people get an inordinate desire to learn things to satisfy what is lacking. While I am not downing learning, I do down learning for learning sake. I see it in the chat rooms as well

hope that makes sense

 

[TheAristocat]

Christianity without the faith of Abraham can never be enough, just as Messianic Judaism withou the faith of Abraham will never be enough.

What is enough is reading the Word, hearing Jesus (Yeshua), believing Him, and doing what follows suit in believing Him. May I hear an amen?

If you're talking about works does not equal salvation but are a good indicator of one's faith, then I'll give you an amen. I have another theory that works do play a direct role in one's faith and therefore an indirect role in one's salvation. And that theory's supported by evidence. But essentially Jesus is all we need if we can keep our faith in him.