Do you believe in Moral Absolutes or Eternal Moral Laws of God?
- Thread starter Jason0047
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Just because you think it is wrong doesn't make it wrong. God actually did tell people to kill entire villages, women and children included. Those who didn't listen were punished. You are deciding on your own that Jesus should not have given those people more wine because they had had enough. I think you are overstepping your boundaries.
I believe Jesus made freshly squeezed juice straight from the grapes themselves because God creates life and not death. For the Bible mentions both wine being fully fermented and wine that has not fully fermented (Which can be called unfermented wine although wine is technically always fermenting unless the process of fermentation has been stopped. Note: It can be called "unfermented" because it did not fully ferment yet whereby it produces an intoxicating alcoholic type substance.). I believe this to be a moral issue because the alcoholic who reads John chapter 2 could get the "green light" that it is okay to drink intoxicating beverages for everyone because everyone did so at a Wedding party. But I do not believe Jesus would leave thousands of struggling alcoholics who read the Bible to then drink themselves to death because of wrong belief on Jesus' miracle in John 2. I also believe it is immoral because it breaks every OT warning about intoxicating beverages. Strong drink is raging.. Wine is not for kings. It can bite you like a serpent. Daniel refused the king's wine and meat so as not to be defiled, etc.
No, not at all. I believe you are ignoring tons of Scripture on alcoholic beverages in the OT, if you believe Jesus made an intoxicating beverage and not freshly squeezed juice (wine) from the grape. So I believe you are overstepping your boundaries.
Also, God telling people to kill their enemies who were bent on destroying them both physically and spiritually as a nation is not the same thing as one selfishly taking a life because you hate that person or lust in desiring to kill them for your own dark and evil purposes. One is obeying God and the other is making yourself into your own God (Which is wrong).
Also, God telling people to kill their enemies who were bent on destroying them both physically and spiritually as a nation is not the same thing as one selfishly taking a life because you hate that person or lust in desiring to kill them for your own dark and evil purposes. One is obeying God and the other is making yourself into your own God (Which is wrong).
You see and hear the word "wine" and have been indoctrinated by your society and your church to believe that this is what the word "wine" means. Look up at Dictionary.com at the third definition. Google unfermented wine in Google's image search section. Such a statement does not make the word "wine" into an intoxicating beverage. Oh, and yes. They said "well drunk." Doesn't mean they were drunk. Jesus did not contribute to drunkenness. If He did it would contradict other Scripture where Paul says drunkenness (along with a list of other sins) will not cause you to inherit the Kingdom of God. Drunkenness is a sin; And Jesus contributing to drunkenness would have been wrong.
My point Jason is when God tells you to do something you do it. Even if He says to kill your own son. You are reasoning everything out so it will fit nicely into your own understandings and in so doing you are denying that which is written. You have 0 evidence that Jesus made non alcoholic wine. In fact every other reference suggests that Jesus did drink fermented wine and He made it. You are deciding it doesn't fit with scripture. That is your problem, and a scary one. I have a simple faith brother. I don't like to add a bunch to it. It is a fear of mine that I can be mislead by following "people's opinions" I follow what is written. People who wish to live a life in the flesh they will find countless ways to do so. They can twist anything to fit their own desires. My issue with this particular subject is that a drunk will remain a drunk no matter what Jesus turned that water into, the real threat here is that you are adding to the Word.
To have no standard of morality in one's faith is to have the type of faith that is no different than a terrorist's faith or the faith of a sociopathic religious nut.
In other words, if God told you to kill a bunch of children, or act like the terrorists at 9/11 then you would do it?
I don't believe God wants us to destroy our enemies under this current dispensation. It is only when Jesus returns in the sky riding upon a horse (With his saints following) whereby the saint (which came from Heaven) will then execute justice upon the remaining nations who have refused to repent.
In other words, if God told you to kill a bunch of children, or act like the terrorists at 9/11 then you would do it?
I don't believe God wants us to destroy our enemies under this current dispensation. It is only when Jesus returns in the sky riding upon a horse (With his saints following) whereby the saint (which came from Heaven) will then execute justice upon the remaining nations who have refused to repent.
That is the difference Jason. God wouldn't tell me to do that. We know the voice of our Shepherd. At the same time we have to trust Him to know more than we do. God demands that we trust Him above our own desires and understandings. God holds many mysteries. If He say's "lift that dagger and stab your son" you lift that dagger. That's what Abraham did. Trust God and then He stopped Abraham. You see, God will test our faith.
Jesus miracle was to magnify his glory (John 2:11). It was to show He was God. God created life and not death. Fermentation is a process of death. And the Scriptures say that death will one day be destroyed.
Endorsing a beverage that causes addition, hurt, pain, and destoys familes every several minutes is not how I see how God would get the glory in this case. For alcohol's destruction or bad fruit is impartial.
Endorsing a beverage that causes addition, hurt, pain, and destoys familes every several minutes is not how I see how God would get the glory in this case. For alcohol's destruction or bad fruit is impartial.
As I said before. God was not asking Abraham to murder his son permanently. Read Hebrews 11:19. Abraham believed God was going to resurect Isaac. Therein lies the difference.
In other words, on one hand you are saying God would not ask you to kill children and then on the other hand you are saying that he can ask you to kill chlldren by taking the life of your own son permanently? See you believe in a contradiction. No moral absolute in this case. You either believe God always acts good or you don't.
In other words, on one hand you are saying God would not ask you to kill children and then on the other hand you are saying that he can ask you to kill chlldren by taking the life of your own son permanently? See you believe in a contradiction. No moral absolute in this case. You either believe God always acts good or you don't.
red wine promotes a healthy heart (in moderation) and the entire old testament you have God's chosen drinking and getting drunk, taking multiple wives, harlots and concubines. They remained His chosen through most of that. How are you able to decide what God should and should not do? did and did not do?
God does not condone open rebellion or people who refuse to repent. Jesus lineage is from people who had chosen to repent of their sins. It wasn't the fact that they sinned. Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It's when you turn from your sin and ask to forgive you of your sin is when you are accepted of God. No repentance. No salvation.