Do you believe in Moral Absolutes or Eternal Moral Laws of God?

[hishealingred]

I believe Jesus made freshly squeezed juice straight from the grapes themselves because God creates life and not death. For the Bible mentions both wine being fully fermented and wine that has not fully fermented (Which can be called unfermented wine although wine is technically always fermenting unless the process of fermentation has been stopped. Note: It can be called "unfermented" because it did not fully ferment yet whereby it produces an intoxicating alcoholic type substance.). I believe this to be a moral issue because the alcoholic who reads John chapter 2 could get the "green light" that it is okay to drink intoxicating beverages for everyone because everyone did so at a Wedding party. But I do not believe Jesus would leave thousands of struggling alcoholics who read the Bible to then drink themselves to death because of wrong belief on Jesus' miracle in John 2. I also believe it is immoral because it breaks every OT warning about intoxicating beverages. Strong drink is raging.. Wine is not for kings. It can bite you like a serpent. Daniel refused the king's wine and meat so as not to be defiled, etc.

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." Matthew 15:11

"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts." Proverbs 31:6

"It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:" Proverbs 31:4

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1

"7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him." John 2:7-11

"29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again." Proverbs 23:29:35

"23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." 2 Timothy 5:23

"21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." Romans 14:21

"22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:" Isaiah 5:22

"9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:" Leviticus 10:9

"16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." Colossians 2:16-23

"16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:" Matthew 11:16-20

Could it be that it depends on the heart, not that I am not saying it is, neither am I saying the bible says it does, I am just thinking.

"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27

 

[Jason0047]

red wine promotes a healthy heart (in moderation)

The minor health benefits of drinking wine moderatly and soberly (within the privacy of your own home) pales in comparison to the wake of destruction that is caused by alcohol every several minutes.

and the entire old testament you have God's chosen drinking and getting drunk, taking multiple wives, harlots and concubines. They remained His chosen through most of that. How are you able to decide what God should and should not do? did and did not do?

First, the Israelites were cut off because of their unbelief. Read Hebrews 3, Romans 11, and Deuteronomy 30:19. Second, when David committed adultery and murder he repented of those sins (See Psalm 51). In fact, David literally said not to take his Holy Spirit from him because of his actions.

God never condoned anyone in getting drunk; Especially his chosen people. If they did get drunk, they would have to repent of that sin. As for God approving of the the taking of multiple wives: that is is a wives tale.

Read this article here:

Here's the Plain Truth About OLD TESTAMENT POLYGAMY

 

[PennEd]

I believe this to be the case when people are indoctrinated to be believe certain immoral things within the Bible.

Here are a couple of wrong things I believe are immoral (and wrong to say):

#1. Judas was saved when he committed suicide.
#2. Samson was not saved.
#3. God told Hosea to marry a prostitute.
#4. God commanded his people to murder other people.
#5. Jesus made intoxicating wine (and possibly even contributed to people who were already drunk).
#6. Saul was saved and his practice in witchcraft involved a real vision from God.
#7. We can abide in unrepentant sin and still be saved (i.e. Believers can openly rebel against God habitually with no remorse and still be saved).

Problems with this list:
#1 and #2. Although I will not preach that Judas was saved or that Samson was not saved, I'm content with God being their judge. Not me.

#4. God DID command His people to KILL people. (several places)

#5. Silly arguments I have heard on this one. Why would Scripture say that usually people save the lesser quality wine til later if there were no intoxicating effect? The only reason to serve the lesser wine last is because the guests would already have a buzz and notice less that the quality of the wine has fallen.

But I do agree in moral absolutes. The floating morality we have today is why so many can abide legal drug use, collapse of decent language and rampant fornication in entertainment, as well as homosexual acceptance, up to and including the lunacy of marriage.

 

[Deadtosin]

Wine is an integral part of the Orthodox Jewish wedding and has been for thousands of years. But, it can't be any wine. It must be kosher and in accordance with the laws of Torah. What is the real place of wine in a Jewish, why is it there, and what makes a wine kosher?

[h=2]The Significance of Wine[/h] Wine is not only a symbolic tradition at your Jewish wedding; it is an important part of Jewish culture. Nearly every custom, holiday, and event includes the drinking of wine. The use of wine is a weekly occurance for the Sabbath. This weekly observance, that includes a special prayer for the wine, defines the unique place wine has in the Jewish community.

The sanctifying of wine, called Kiddush, literally means sanctification. It is a ritual of prayers for the wine. Kiddush is practiced before the Sabbath and festival meals. There are also specific instructions for worship and sacrifices, which include wine as an integral part of the services. Its purpose is to signify the sanctity and purity of the event.
Wine is so significant in everyday elements of Jewish life, it is introduced to children at an early age as a normal and essential part of life. It is also traditional for Kiddush cups to be given as gifts for babies, at bar mitzvahs, and weddings. Kiddush cups are beautifully decorated cups that serve as the vessel for wine and nothing else.
According to the teachings of the Midrash, the grape is believed to be the forbidden fruit Eve partook of and gave to Adam. The grape itself is what makes wine so unique. If left to completely natural means, grapes would themselves convert into wine. When the wild yeasts on the bloom mix with the pulpy insides of the grape, natural fermentation begins.
Because of this natural occurrence, it is considered to be a divine process and one that G-d intended. It also why only wine derived from grapes can be considered kosher. No harmful organisms can survive in wine. It has also shown scientific evidence of a beneficial aid for healthy blood and heart.

The Tradition Of Kosher Wine At Your Orthodox Jewish Wedding

 

[Jason0047]

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." Matthew 15:11

"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts." Proverbs 31:6

"It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:" Proverbs 31:4

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1

"7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him." John 2:7-11

"29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again." Proverbs 23:29:35

"23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." 2 Timothy 5:23

"21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." Romans 14:21

"22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:" Isaiah 5:22

"9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:" Leviticus 10:9

"16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." Colossians 2:16-23

"16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:" Matthew 11:16-20

Could it be that it depends on the heart, not that I am not saying it is, neither am I saying the bible says it does, I am just thinking.

"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27

Jesus was preparing everyone for the New Testament which into effect with his sacifice upon the cross. Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament Law of Moses that had restictions on alcoholic beverages and eating unclean animals. His death ushered in the New Testament whereby the moral has not changed but the ritual and judicial laws have been done away with. It was not until Christ's death that made this happen. For Peter was told to eat unclean animals by God in a vision. But Peter did not realize that the OT Law had been fulfilled in Christ already. That is why God could say to Peter to eat unclean animals under the New Testament. So does a believer have a liberty to drink intoxicating beverages soberly and in moderation within the privacy of their own home? Yes, but this liberty did not exist before the cross, though. Strong intoxicating beverages were forbidden in the Old Testament just as it was forbidden to eat unclean animals.

 

[Deadtosin]

As for God approving of the the taking of multiple wives: that is is a wives tale.

A wives tale? what my bible?

 

[Jason0047]

Wine is an integral part of the Orthodox Jewish wedding and has been for thousands of years. But, it can't be any wine. It must be kosher and in accordance with the laws of Torah. What is the real place of wine in a Jewish, why is it there, and what makes a wine kosher?

The Significance of Wine

Wine is not only a symbolic tradition at your Jewish wedding; it is an important part of Jewish culture. Nearly every custom, holiday, and event includes the drinking of wine. The use of wine is a weekly occurance for the Sabbath. This weekly observance, that includes a special prayer for the wine, defines the unique place wine has in the Jewish community.

The sanctifying of wine, called Kiddush, literally means sanctification. It is a ritual of prayers for the wine. Kiddush is practiced before the Sabbath and festival meals. There are also specific instructions for worship and sacrifices, which include wine as an integral part of the services. Its purpose is to signify the sanctity and purity of the event.
Wine is so significant in everyday elements of Jewish life, it is introduced to children at an early age as a normal and essential part of life. It is also traditional for Kiddush cups to be given as gifts for babies, at bar mitzvahs, and weddings. Kiddush cups are beautifully decorated cups that serve as the vessel for wine and nothing else.
According to the teachings of the Midrash, the grape is believed to be the forbidden fruit Eve partook of and gave to Adam. The grape itself is what makes wine so unique. If left to completely natural means, grapes would themselves convert into wine. When the wild yeasts on the bloom mix with the pulpy insides of the grape, natural fermentation begins.
Because of this natural occurrence, it is considered to be a divine process and one that G-d intended. It also why only wine derived from grapes can be considered kosher. No harmful organisms can survive in wine. It has also shown scientific evidence of a beneficial aid for healthy blood and heart.

The Tradition Of Kosher Wine At Your Orthodox Jewish Wedding

I do not want to make this into another wine thread. Obvioiusly people like their drink, so they will defend it. That is not what being a Christian is all about. The Kingdom of God is not meat or drink but it is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Anyways, here are 75 warnings that talk about alcohol:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...d-wine-not-fermented-wine-40.html#post1654338

 

[Jason0047]

A wives tale? what my bible?

No, your interpretation of your Bible on certain moral issues is a wives tale. Read the artice on pologamy that I provided.

 

[Deadtosin]

I do not want to make this into another wine thread. Obvioiusly people like their drink, so they will defend it. That is not what being a Christian is all about. The Kingdom of God is not meat or drink but it is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Anyways, here are 75 warnings that talk about alcohol:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...d-wine-not-fermented-wine-40.html#post1654338

Jason, I'm not defending wine so I can drink it. I'm not one of those people who believes I have to justify my actions. I believe in owning up to my faults. I am talking soley about you adding to the Word. Your only evidence is that the bible say's not to tarry long at the wine and that too much alcohol is dangerous, so in your own mind, Jesus should not have given them more wine. You don't know how much they drank, you don't know how many people were there to share the supply, you don't know how much more they drank, you just decided "Jesus wouldn't have done that" and you've dismissed the truth behind the story.

 

[hishealingred]

Jesus was preparing everyone for the New Testament which into effect with his sacifice upon the cross. Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament Law of Moses that had restictions on alcoholic beverages and eating unclean animals. His death ushered in the New Testament whereby the moral has not changed but the ritual and judicial laws have been done away with. It was not until Christ's death that made this happen. For Peter was told to eat unclean animals by God in a vision. But Peter did not realize that the OT Law had been fulfilled in Christ already. That is why God could say to Peter to eat unclean animals under the New Testament. So does a believer have a liberty to drink intoxicating beverages soberly and in moderation within the privacy of their own home? Yes, but this liberty did not exist before the cross, though. Strong intoxicating beverages were forbidden in the Old Testament just as it was forbidden to eat unclean animals.

OH! Thank you for helping me understand. B)

 

[Deadtosin]

No, your interpretation of your Bible on certain moral issues is a wives tale. Read the artice on pologamy that I provided.

Jason, I don't need an article. I have a bible. I have a bible that tells me of men having many wives, and God opening and shutting wombs of them He chose. It is quite clear and I couldn't care less what any humans opinion is. I have a bible.

 

[Jason0047]

Problems with this list:
#1 and #2. Although I will not preach that Judas was saved or that Samson was not saved, I'm content with God being their judge. Not me.

You have things backwards, my friend; And the fact that you wouldn't preach such a thing (Which I would have no problem preaching on these things), tells me that you are ashamed for the belief that you do have.

Judas was not saved. He is called the son of perdition. Also, how can you repent of self murder?

Here is a brief but good aritlce:

Was Judas Iscariot forgiven / saved?

Also, Samson clearly did not commit suicide. Check out this thread here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/97572-samson-did-not-commit-suicide.html

#4. God DID command His people to KILL people. (several places)

God did not command His people to have hate in their hearts like Cain so as to kill their good brothers selfishly or out of jeallousy. There is a difference between murder (or taking life selfishly) versus following orders in war so as to protect your nation and family from hostile invaders who seek to destroy you both physically and spiritually. One is done out of obedience and helps to eliminate evil (By God's timing) and the other is done for selfish reasons, whereby they are trying to be their own God. One is done out of love. Love for one's nation and family. The other is done out of hate or in the lust for killing.

#5. Silly arguments I have heard on this one. Why would Scripture say that usually people save the lesser quality wine til later if there were no intoxicating effect? The only reason to serve the lesser wine last is because the guests would already have a buzz and notice less that the quality of the wine has fallen.

If Jesus contributed to drunkenness it would have been a sin because the New Testament and the Old Testament condem these types of things as sins very clearly. You are simply choosing to ignore those warnings on alcohol in the Bible because you favor alcohol.

But I do agree in moral absolutes. The floating morality we have today is why so many can abide legal drug use, collapse of decent language and rampant fornication in entertainment, as well as homosexual acceptance, up to and including the lunacy of marriage.

I am glad you believe in moral absolutes. Some here do not and I am afraid for them even more.

 

[Deadtosin]

You have things backwards, my friend; And the fact that you wouldn't preach such a thing (Which I would have no problem preaching on these things), tells me that you are ashamed for the belief that you do have.

lol, you gathered I am ashamed of my beliefs. Wow, okay...


OR, I don't judge man- I leave that to God.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, I don't need an article. I have a bible. I have a bible that tells me of men having many wives, and God opening and shutting wombs of them He chose. It is quite clear and I couldn't care less what any humans opinion is. I have a bible.

The fact that you are unwilling to have your immoral belief on the subject challenged tells me that you are comfortable with idea of believing God can do something immoral. But see, in your eyes, anything God tells you to do is moral and good. I am sorry. That is not how God operates. God is good. He is not going to tell you to do evil. Read the article. If not, then you can take the blue pill and believe whatever you want to believe. But I know it would be a fantasy, though. For the Bible does not condone the practice of pologamy.

 

[Jason0047]

lol, you gathered I am ashamed of my beliefs. Wow, okay...

OR, I don't judge man- I leave that to God.

The Bible says it is not wrong to judge righteous Judgment. As long it is done out of love and not hate.

 

[Deadtosin]

If Jesus contributed to drunkenness it would have been a sin because the New Testament and the Old Testament condem these types of things as sins very clearly. You are simply choosing to ignore those warnings on alcohol in the Bible because you favor alcohol.

1 You don't know they were drunk. 2 there is scripture supporting wine it goes back to the very beginning of Judaism. I read the bible and it is all pretty straight forward. Over and over again we have God's chosen drinking, He only condemns the ones who uncover their nakedness. The bible warns about the dangers of alcohol. It also seems to separate wine from strong drink. Though being a drunkard is obviously not good.

 

[Deadtosin]

The Bible says it is not wrong to judge righteous Judgment. As long it is done out of love and not hate.

The bible also says "judge not, lest you be judged."

Why should I judge a man who is dead? what do I have to gain?

 

[Deadtosin]

There are times for righteous judgement, it's not for finger pointing and self righteousness. It's when something can actually be changed and it matters. real time.

 

[Deadtosin]

The fact that you are unwilling to have your immoral belief on the subject challenged tells me that you are comfortable with idea of believing God can do something immoral. But see, in your eyes, anything God tells you to do is moral and good. I am sorry. That is not how God operates. God is good. He is not going to tell you to do evil. Read the article. If not, then you can take the blue pill and believe whatever you want to believe. But I know it would be a fantasy, though. For the Bible does not condone the practice of pologamy.

Why do I have to think about "What if God tells me to do something immoral?" that's not my God.

 

[sacraig67]

You cannot place the Bible up against articles which men wrote. If you say here is an article which some guy wrote about a passage of scripture and say it's correct then you are not trusting God's word. To understand the Bible you can only place the Bible against the Bible and rely on the Holy Spirit alone for understanding. The best example of human corruption and interpretation vs the Holy Spirit interpretation in the stupid watch tower magazine. Show me where it says Jesus made grape juice instead of wine? You cannot just add your own interpretation to God's word.