Do you believe there is going to be a pre-tribulation rapture?

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Jan 8, 2009
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Deep_mindQuest you think the pre-trib rapture is an "obvious truth" but if that's true why have the majority of great bible scholars NOT beeen pre-trib?:

Outstanding Bible Teachers in subsequent generations of Church history, who taught that the Church would encounter the persecution of the Antichrist here on earth before the Second Coming, include : John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Henry Alford, J.Sidlow Baxter, F.F. Bruce, Thomas Chalmers, Adam Clarke, Jonathan Edwards, Jim Elliott, W.J. Erdman, Robert Gundry, Carl F. Henry, Matthew Henry, John Huss, Orson Jones, C.S. Lovett, J.Gresham Machen, Peter Marshall, Walter Martin, Gary Matsdorf, G.Campbell Morgan, Leon Morris, George Mueller, Ian Murray, B.W. Newton, John Newton, H.J. Ockenga, Bernard Ramm, Alexander Reese, A. Saphir, Demos Shakarian, A.B. Simpson, Oswald J. Smith, Jim Spillman, R.C. Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie TenBoom, S.P. Tragelles, William Tyndale, B.B. Warfield, Charles Wesley, R.F. Youngblood, -----and premillennial posttribulationists also include : Bengel, Brooks, Cameron, Delitzsch, Derstine, DeWette, Ellicott, Ewald, Frost, Godet, Godwin, Joyner, Kellogg, Moorehead, Orelli, Robertson, Rothe, Ryle, Spener, Stier, Trench, Volck, Van Ostersee, West, Whiston, Zahn, and many more. -----In looking at the whole history of the Christian Church, the overwhelming majority of great Bible-teachers have believed that the Church would encounter Antichrist, and that the rapture and the Second Coming would happen at the same time ...after the tribulation.
http://worldview_3.tripod.com/tribchurch.html


The pre-trib view is certainly popular but popular doesn't mean it is right. Even so, the left behind movies sucked I wasted $15 on that for a 45 minute movie LOL.
 
Oct 5, 2009
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scripture nowhere mentions a posttrib rapture , just because Jesus lands on earth at the second coming doesnt mean you can make it the rapture, scriptures real easy to see and its a 2 part second coming he only lands on earth once so theres not 3 comings to earth like post tribers falsly claim, the rapture he meets us in the air as everyone knows and theres gotta be time for the marriage and supper you dont just go up then straight back down like an elevator thats rediculous, the events between the rapture and second coming to earth are completly the oppasite and impossable to be the same one/singular event. post trib raptures not even possable. besides the groom doesnt beat his bride just before marrying her thats insane and sure doesnt follow Gods view of marriage its unbiblical and has no substance at all. pretribs the only view that matches and adds up
 
Jan 8, 2009
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And the false prophets in the pre-trib camp say "the rapture will occur in 2006, 2008, 2009", still hasn't happened. There's one rapture at the end of the tribulation , the saints go up (the living, and the dead), and Christ comes down. Simple.

Yes there are people alive and who remain on the earth at the coming of the Lord : Not tribulation saints, proper church saints "we which are alive" (not "tribulation saints"):
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul obviously believed he might be on the earth when the Lord returns (not raptured beforehand), and since Paul met the Bereans, I guess so did those wise Bereans. All post-tribbers.
 
Oct 5, 2009
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alot of so called bible teachers are into replacement theology that replaces jews with the church its a cancer thats been eating away at truth for a long time it takes away discernment between 2 diffrent camps of people and 2 diffrent plans God has for the 2.. the whole reason theres 2 parts of the second coming in the first place is because of 2 seperate plans thats sorta the whole point and a point post tribbers ignore and so they try to make 2 seperate things be one but it doesnt match up you cant symbolise half the bible you have to just Take God as his literal word says it all, read the Bible literal and you come out pretrib
 
Jan 8, 2009
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While replacement theology is wrong, the "two camp" theory is wrong also:

Gal 3:28 There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
 
Oct 5, 2009
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noones mentioning dates of a pretrib so its more gibborish to mention some silly people who made date and year predictions when the Word itself clearly says you cant know the day or year, its the mid and post views that can be calculated to claim they know a year only pretrib is imminent and cant be known cause it could happen at any time without signs, all the signs are for the second coming not the rapture , only pretrib lines up with imminence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA5S5cyNiLc The Rapture of The Church is Imminent
 
J

Jezreel

Guest
God has not appointed us to wrath but throughout the whole history of his people, we can't be as arrogant to say that we will not receive persecution and the wrath of the system of the antiChrist. I do feel that God has to purify his people and will use the persecution as separating. You will really get to know who is who from what is coming in this country. People will be so angry at their pastors for preaching pre trib rapture and try to blame them instead of their own selves. Don't get me wrong, I used to be a pre trib rapture person and I would love it to be that way. All I know is what the spirit is speaking to my hearts for these last days and he is speaking to all his people. The hirelings and false sheperds who are ordained by man and run churches for a paycheck will be the first that God will judge as judgement start first at the house of God. God truly hates what is going on right now in the system of organized religeon. He is very jealous for his people and the oppression of the leaders today are as bad as the time when Jesus Christ came and set his people free. If I am wrong, I always pray that God forgive me and give me a heart to want to believe the truth as he is the truth. In the past ten years, I have gone through the biggest changes of my whole life. A quick work he will do and cut it short in righteousness.
 
Oct 5, 2009
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being one as far as salvation today isnt the same as becoming a jew and stealing whats there claiming its yours as the church, after the rapture the church age saints are gone then some jews and gentiles will get saved after that and become trib saints theres 3 categories jews,gentiles, and the saved church composed of both jews and gentiles that are saved but after the rapture its jews and gentiles left behind thats why the church isnt mentioned between rev 4 and around 19 when we come back down with Jesus, the saints mentioned inbetween arent todays church age saints the trib saints.
being all of abraham doesnt mean we are spiritual jews.
http://www.letusreason.org/7hAd5.htm IS THE CHURCH ISRAEL

We come now to something that is crucial and needs to be defined to understand the new covenant. Is the Church Israel? For if it is ,we are obligated to keep Sabbath day at least in a general sense. If the Church is not Israel then what sense would there be to keep the Sabbath. Scripturally we find the Church is not Israel the nation but a separate entity under an entirely new covenant. Israel is called the wife of Jehovah, while the Church is called the bride of Christ, showing distinctions in how God relates to each. The word Israel is always descriptive of the physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. It was Jacob who’s name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons that became that nation.

Many transfer the promises and the covenants to Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look it up you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported in their context.
Gal.3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It Means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob.
The other verse is Gal.6:16 where Paul is addressing both believing Jews and Gentiles in the church "As many as walk according to this rule (Gentile believers) and upon "the Israel of God." In its context this term means Jews who are believers, who believe salvation is by faith in Christ contrary to what the Judaizers were teaching that the law was needed also. Paul also addresses this in Rom.9:6-8 that there are two Israel's, one that consists of Jews and the elect, the true Israel which are the physical posterity and also have the faith of Abraham, they are the Israel of God mentioned in Gal.6. As Paul states, " for they are not all Israel who are of Israel." (Rom.9:6). There is also "Israel" after the flesh found in 1 Cor.10:18. The Church is never called spiritual Israel or is a new Israel replacing the old. Nor does it say believers become Jews. Both gentiles and Jews participate together in the New Covenant. as Eph 2 addresses the middle wall of partition being broken down and God makeing a new entity.

In the N.T we have three terms used alongside each other, Israel, Gentiles and the Church. The Church consists of both believing Gentiles and Jews while Israel as a nation is in unbelief as are the Gentiles. The Church and Israel are two distinct groups and God has a different program for each. Both are brought in make up the body of Christ. The name Israel is used 20 times and the church 19 times in the book of Acts, both are kept distinct While there is no difference in salvation for both, Gods plans are different for each. In the book of Acts Israel and the church exist alongside each other, nowhere is the church called the new or spiritual Israel.There are certain areas the differences of Jew and gentile are erased but in all areas.Such as we becoming one in Christ all the same way 1 Cor.12:13 , according to the NT a Jew is one that is not only outwardly by the flesh but inwardly,this obviously can't be for a gentile so for a gentile. there is no such thing as a spiritual Jew from the inside only, but there is such a thing as spiritual gentiles.

If you claim to be Israel then you were cut off according to Romans.11. And where the natural branch once was, God grafted in unnatural ones the Gentiles. It doesn't get any clearer. The teaching of God abandoning Israel the nation or replaced by the Church did quite well for almost 1,500 hundred years until he actually gave them back their land AND STARTED TO REGATHER THEM FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD JUST AS HE SAID HE WOULD. God said in Neh. 1:8 if you are unfaithful I will scatter you.' but he also said...

Jer.30:18, 31:8 "Behold I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the ends of the earth."

Isa.43:5 I will bring your descendants from the east and gather you from the west...

It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God has a differnt plan for both.
 
Oct 5, 2009
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Christians go thru daily tribulations but wont go thru The Tribulation, the whole 7 yearTribulation is Wrath were not appointed to wrath, we will be gone before the 7 year Tribulation. whatever power satan gets is from God so its Gods wrath

Tribulations and the Great Tribulation
Christians Experience Tribulations not the Great Tribulation
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Tribulations are for the Christians good.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

All things always work out for good in a Christian’s life. The trials in the Christian’s life are meant for good and not for evil. God has a plan and a purpose for all the trials a Christian experiences in life.

Heb 12:6-8 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

The Lord corrects us and disciplines us because He loves us. We are sons of God and He treats us as sons by disciplining us when we do wrong. Often the discipline involves trials and tribulations. The tribulations of discipline come into our lives for the purpose of making us to be more like Christ and never to destroy us. All the true sons of God experience discipline from Him. Anyone who does not experience discipline from God is not a true son of God.

John 15:1-2 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jesus Christ is the vine and Christians are branches in the vine. When we are fruitful as Christians, God prunes us, so that we will bear more fruit. Sometimes the pruning takes place in the form of tribulation. The pruning is for our good and not our harm because God loves us.

2 Cor 4:8-11 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

All the tribulations we experience in life are meant to make us to be more like Jesus, to be obedient to the will of God. Tribulations help us to set the right priorities in life, to live for God and not for this world, to plan for a future in heaven and not in this world.

2 Cor 4:17-18 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The tribulation of this life are for a short period of time, but the glory of heaven will last for eternity. Tribulations teach us to live for our future in heaven and not for a future on this earth.

2 Cor 12:9-10 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

When we experience tribulations we learn how helpless we are and how much we need the Lord’s help. The tribulations we endure teach us to rely upon Christ for His strength. We learn as Paul did, when we are weak, then we are strong.

James 1:2-4 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

The tribulations we experience teach us to continue to trust in God; they teach us to look to Him to meet our needs and to help us. They teach us to hope in Him and trust in Him. As we learn to patiently look to God for help, our faith becomes stronger; and in the end, we become mature in Christ.

Rom 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Because we believe in Jesus Christ, God loves us and always will. There is no one and there is nothing that can separate us from the love of Christ; the love He has for us is unconditional and eternal. All the powers of the universe cannot separate us from the love of God, which is ours in Christ Jesus. God loved us and He will always love us, He saved us and He will keep us saved forever.

We must always remember that when we experience tribulations God still loves us. God never stops loving us and the tribulations we experience will always work out for our good. We may not understand why we are going through the various trials we experience, but God always knows what He is doing and He is always in control. Christians sometimes think that God has stopped loving them because He allows trials in their lives, but that is not true; He never stops loving us.

Ps 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word. Ps 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes. Ps 119:75 I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.

When we are afflicted, when we experience tribulations, it is because God is at work in us to teach us to be obedient to His word, to be doers of His word. It is because the Lord is faithful and righteous that He afflicts us. We can be sure that the Lord will always do that which is right and that He will always remain faithful in His love for us.

Those who cause tribulation for the Christian will receive tribulation.

II Th 1:4-10 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.

As Christians we suffer persecutions and tribulations at the hand of unbelievers; because the world hates Jesus, the world hates those who love Jesus. Those who hate Jesus inflect persecution upon us in an effort to destroy us. The day is soon coming when God will inflect tribulation upon those who are now causing tribulation for us. 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; It is only right for God to give tribulation to those who cause us tribulation, and that will happen during the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is not for Christians, but for unbelievers, for those who are now causing tribulation for the Christian.

While the unbelievers are experiencing the Great Tribulation, we will be at rest, in the presence of the Lord; we will be freed from all trials and tribulations. 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, When the Lord comes back to this earth to bring judgment upon all unbelievers, we will be at rest from all tribulations, we will be with Him.

During the Great tribulation God will take vengeance upon all those who reject Jesus Christ. 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: One of the purposes of the Great Tribulation is to cause tribulation for unbelievers. 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; The great Tribulation is only the beginning of God’s vengeance upon those who hate Him. In the end all unbelievers will be punished with everlasting destruction.

Rom 2:8-10 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

During the Great Tribulation, God will demonstrate His great anger towards those who reject Jesus Christ. He will torment unbelievers while at the same time He will give glory, honor, and peace to all those who believe in Jesus Christ.

The Great Tribulation will be a time of great wrath toward all those who reject Jesus Christ.

Ps 107:17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.

God will afflict unbelievers because of their evildoing, immorality, wickedness, and injustice. Those who refuse to turn from their evil ways and accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord will experience the anger of God, during the Great Tribulation.

Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Everyone knows that there is a God in heaven, but many reject Him because they do not want to give up their ungodliness and unrighteousness. Therefore, God will make His anger known towards those who refuse to acknowledge Him and believe in Jesus Christ.

Rev 6:16-17 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There will be no place to hide, there will be no place to escape the anger of God, during the Great Tribulation. Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God that was slain for the sins of the world and He will demonstrate His great anger towards all those who reject Him.

Rev 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Those who receive the mark of the beast, those who worship the beast and his image during the Great Tribulation, will be tormented for all eternity; their torment will only begin during the Great Tribulation.

In Conclusion

The Great Tribulation is a time in which God will give rest to His Church, which is made up of all those who now believe in Jesus Christ. It is also a time when He will demonstrate His great anger toward all those who now reject Jesus Christ.

The Church will not experience the Great Tribulation.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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scripture nowhere mentions a posttrib rapture , just because Jesus lands on earth at the second coming doesnt mean you can make it the rapture,
Jesus landing on earth is not the rapture. However scripture does clearly tell us that we meet Him in the air as He is coming.

1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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While replacement theology is wrong, the "two camp" theory is wrong also:

Gal 3:28 There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Exactly... :)
 
Oct 5, 2009
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Jesus landing on earth is not the rapture. However scripture does clearly tell us that we meet Him in the air as He is coming.

1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
this is the rapture verse this isnt the landing on earth second coming verse its the pretrib rapture verse i fail to see why you posted it since it supports the rapture
 
Oct 5, 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

While replacement theology is wrong, the "two camp" theory is wrong also:

Gal 3:28 There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.



this was exposed as wrong to so i dont see why you would say exactly to somthing just shown to be completly wrong
 
Apr 23, 2009
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Jesus landing on earth is not the rapture. However scripture does clearly tell us that we meet Him in the air as He is coming.

1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
this is the rapture verse this isnt the landing on earth second coming verse its the pretrib rapture verse i fail to see why you posted it since it supports the rapture
Because the it shows what the 'obvious'' truth really is, and that is that the rapture occurs at the coming of Christ, which we both know is after the Tribulation.
 
Oct 5, 2009
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i see you have nothing to say just silly personal unbiblical views you just say to try and have the last word but we can all see you really had nothing to say everything else you said was already exposed as wrong so now you just blindly say anything in a desperate attempt at a last word the raptures before trib but since you cant tell the second coming on earth from the rapture in the air you try to mix them as one event which is impossable. is that the best you can do is just repeat what was already exposed as completly wrong? lol
 
Oct 5, 2009
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Why the rapture must be before the tribulation

I suppose that there are a handful of topics that are always controversial, and the subject of eschatology (study of end-time events) is no different. Most are firmly entrenched in their position and are unwilling to be moved from their stance no matter the amount of scripture that is presented. So, having said that, if you are of a different mindset, I don't expect to change your opinion overnight. But the truth is, all views of end time events cannot be right. Some of them must be wrong, just by using plain logic. Let's examine why this writer believes that the pre-tribulational rapture is the only position that will rightly divide in the Word of God.

The Church is not appointed to wrath
The tribulation period is signified as the wrath of God upon an ungodly, unbelieving, and unrepentant world.

Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev.14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

and again in verse 19

14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth

The church however, does not have this same fate

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him

I Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come

I Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
The tribulation period is not intended to purify the church. Only the blood of Christ can wash us clean of the iniquity and sin. The tribulation period is referred to as the time of "Jacob's trouble", and God will supernaturally deliver the Jewish people. We must be careful to distinguish between God's plan for the church, and His plan for Israel. Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it

The tribulation period is the time of Jacob's trouble-not the church's

It is also commonly referred to as Daniel's 70th Week. We don't have enough time and space to discuss Daniel in-depth, but here is the reference for you to do some research on your own. Perhaps at a later date, we will do an article dealing specifically with Daniel's prophecy.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy

The 70th Week prophesied in Daniel is a period of seven years. This is perfect harmony with the fact that the tribulation period is 7 years.

The doctrine of Imminence is only maintained with a pre-trib view
If there is one theme throughout the New Testament, it is that of the imminent return of Christ. Any view that holds that other events (most notably the tribulation) must precede the rapture of the church, violates the doctrine of the imminent return of Christ. We can infer from the writers and writings of the New Testament, that the early believers expected Christ at any time. Here are just a few verses that are crucial to the doctrine of imminence (which is only preserved with a pre-trib view).

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh
Mark 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

The tribulation period will be full of signs, and fearful happenings that would alert any astute Christian that the time would be near. The student of prophecy also is aware that the "abomination of desolation" (which is marked by the antichrist sitting in the temple claiming to be God himself) takes place in the middle of Daniel's 70th week. It wouldn't take a mathematician to realize that exactly 3 and one half years later, Christ will return (bodily) to the earth, thus destroying the element of imminence. (Side note: Again, the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel and Jesus is beyond the scope of this generic article. There are volumes of studies written about the tribulation period and should be further studied in-depth.)

The restrainer must be removed before the antichrist can be revealed
II Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: This passage is one of the most misunderstood passages in the entire Word of God. We could devote a whole article to just this one passage in II Thessalonians. But briefly, let me just point out a few things. Notice the mystery of iniquity is already at work. John tells us that "there are many antichrists" and evil has been at work in the world for many years. But the passage in II Thessalonians, is not referring to just "an antichrist" but "THE" antichrist (referred to as "that Wicked in the above text).

I want you to notice something very important here. Notice right now, someone is hindering, restraining, or as the text stated above "letting" (old word for restraining/hindering). This restrainer is none other than the church full of God's Holy Spirit power. Right now, the overcoming church is the salt and light that is keeping this world from becoming an absolute cesspool of debauchery. The antichrist could not rise to power as long as the church is on the earth. I know you might be wondering "how can that be?".......well, let me show you from the scriptures.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

We know that when the man of sin is revealed, that he will have a government so powerful that the whole world will say "who is able to make war with the beast?". But Jesus has promised that as long as His church is on the earth, the government of hell will not prevail against it.

Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you

I John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

I hope that you can see from just these few passages, that the church is indeed restraining the antichrist. He cannot be "revealed" (II Thess 2:8) until we are taken out.

We can look at past examples of God removing His people before judgement
II Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Here we see the character of God revealed in these two Old Testament examples. Both Noah, and Lot were spared from the wrath of God, while the sinful and unbelieving were punished. The LORD definitely wants us to learn from these two examples. These two Old Testament figures are pictures of the end-times fulfillment. Jesus also referenced these two men in his preaching about the last days:

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed

So we can see that even in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, there are those like Noah and Lot that will find grace in the eyes of the LORD and be spared from the terrible tribulation period.
The church meets the LORD in the air, not on the earth
I Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

For those who believe the church will go through the tribulation, there is a big problem. When Jesus comes for His church, he comes to the clouds and stops. When Jesus returns to the earth (the 2nd coming-not the rapture), He will set his feet upon the mount of Olives to rule and reign forever more:

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south

Israel (and the remnant of the nations that are alive when Jesus returns at the end of the trib) Will meet Jesus on the earth. The church will meet him in the air and evermore shall be with him. Let's explore this even further by looking at I Thessalonians again, but this time contrasting the pronouns:

I Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 5:1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 5:2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 5:3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 5:4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5:5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day:we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 5:6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 5:7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 5:8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 5:10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 5:11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Ok, I know that's a lot to digest. But I've underlined the pronouns so you can clearly see who is being addressed. We (the church) are in the clouds while they (those left behind) are on the earth receiving wrath. I don't think it could be any clearer. I might also add, that the message of the rapture of the church brings comfort (note verse 11 above), but the message of pending wrath brings anxiety and stress. It's hard to comfort someone with the fact that they are about to endure the wrath of God.

Some things to notice that are different about the second coming and the rapture (the appearing)
At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him :

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

I Thessalonians: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean

At the rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage

Matthew 25 25:10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

But at the second coming to earth, He is returning from a wedding

Luke 12 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

When the Lord comes to the earth bodily (the second coming), the Jewish people will have had to flee to the wilderness, and much of the earth and it's population will have been destroyed. (Some believe close to 2/3's of the earth's population will be destroyed during the trib. period). However, the psalms tell us that Christ is coming when Israel (Zion) is being built up.

Psalm 102:16 When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

But the most convincing evidence for a pre-trib rapture is this.....
For me personally, the greatest evidence that the overcoming church will be raptured prior to the tribulation can be summed up in two verses:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Jesus was clearly talking about the horrors of the tribulation hour that is coming upon the world. The very fact that He instructed us to pray that we may be accounted worthy to escape this tribulation, is evidence enough to me that we most assuredly can escape this terrible time (otherwise that verse makes no sense whatsoever).

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This promise was specifically to the church of Philadelphia, but it applies to all that are overcomers by their faith. This "hour of temptation" indicates something much deeper than just the everyday trials of life that we all must endure as good soldiers of Christ. This is a "worldwide" hour of trouble that most assuredly is a reference to the tribulation period.

The conclusion of the matter
I realize that there are true Christians on both sides of the debate. When I first became a Christian, I held to the post-trib position myself. But after being instructed by my pastor who had spent hundreds and hundreds of hours researching bible prophecy and teaching it to others, I became convinced that the pre-trib rapture is the only position that reconciles all of the difficult passages of scripture. Now, fear of the unknown has been replaced with the expectancy of my blessed hope. I hope that after dilligent study of the scriptures, you will come to the same conclusion.......that there is a way of escape for true believers! As always, I'd like to leave you with one of my favorite passages about the rapture of the church!

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Maranatha!
 
Apr 23, 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

While replacement theology is wrong, the "two camp" theory is wrong also:

Gal 3:28 There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.





this was exposed as wrong to so i dont see why you would say exactly to somthing just shown to be completly wrong
What has been repeatedly expose as wrong is the notion of a pretrib rapture.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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Jesus landing on earth is not the rapture. However scripture does clearly tell us that we meet Him in the air as He is coming.

1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
this is the rapture verse this isnt the landing on earth second coming verse its the pretrib rapture verse i fail to see why you posted it since it supports the rapture
Because the it shows what the 'obvious'' truth really is, and that is that the rapture occurs at the coming of Christ, which we both know is after the Tribulation.
i see you have nothing to say just silly personal unbiblical views you just say to try and have the last word but we can all see you really had nothing to say
I think you need to re-read 1st Thess 4, it clearly says that we are caught up after the resurrection of the just at the coming of Christ. Repeating the bible directly is unbiblical to you? Oh yeah because the bible doesn't line up with your view. So you do what you accuse others of doing, call biblical statements unbiblical, and unbiblical statement truth.
 
Sep 2, 2009
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"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Mat 24:29-31

I don't about you all, but my bible clearly says the rapture comes after the tribulation and after Jesus is seen coming back. What does your's say?

There is no room for argument here, yet it exists. Why? Jesus said he will be seen before he sends his angel to collect the chosen ones for the millennium. Paul told us that happens in two stages, but we find in Revelation that there is another. Three will happen after Jesus is seen coming back, not before.

Unless you want to make up something that is not in the bible, why not believe what he said? Ever hear an evangelist teach about a false Rapture? I have, I hear them all the time, but because I take the bible for what it says, I don't believe them. How about you?
 
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