Do you believe you can die in unrepentant sin (Such as lying etc) and still be saved?

[dcontroversal]

So ALL liars, including Christians that lie but will not repent, will be in the lake of fire
or
has God made exceptions for Christian who lie but do not repent of their lying?

Look dude....you can believe that you lose your salvation and have to do good works to keep it all the day long...my bible teaches eternal security and that the grace of God out bounds my sin...that does not mean that God will not chastise me because of my sin as he whips EVERY SON WHOM HE RECIEVES...the difference is I am not under the CONDEMNATION of the law...open your eyes to the truth!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Rev 21;8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Will all liars (including Christians that lie and do not repent) be in the lake of fire or will just SOME liars be in the lake of fire?

Ananias and Sapphira will be judged either at the resurrection of the just or unjust. Just as Rahab who also lied . . . .

The difference in Christians and those believers in the OT and gospels - we have the Spirit born within us - NOTHING will remove it - It is incorruptible. We have been justified - judged righteous within that Spirit born within us.

 

[dcontroversal]

No that is only the watered down version of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Apostle Paul clarifies in different epistles as well does Acts 5 show how this blasphemy is done. Unbelief is forgivable when the person comes to believe, as the man asked of Jesus in Mark 9:24 for he still could not do things that Jesus said because of his unbelief in that area.
If it was attributed to unbelief then none of us would have salvation because we all were in unbelief at one time in our lives, and even some to this day by what I have seen them say still have unbelief in some areas that needs to be prayed to God for help with. Such as those who deny the gifts and fruits of the Spirit that a true born again believer will have showing out in actions/speech/and works in front of others.

Apostle Paul and Acts shows lying to, denying His guidance, His gifts, and His fruits to not walk in them is all part of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. For Paul says and shows that a person can not have eternal life when they are not walking by the Spirit......

No that is what took place.....receive or not..I could care less Kenneth!

 

[purgedconscience]

ENOCH was translated that he should not see DEATH Hebrews 11:5<-----what part of that is so hard to understand? You really should study more.

Where was he translated to?

Heaven?

John chapter 3 verse 13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Did Jesus lie or do you need to study more yourself?

 

[posthuman]

So every sinner that dies will receive mercy and be saved?

mr fish, we've had this conversation 1000 times.

every sinner that Jah wishes to show mercy to
will receive mercy.

and that's the end of it.

it's not up to mr. fish to decide who receives mercy, no matter how hard you strain your flippers, cute thing.

 

[purgedconscience]

The one that states clearly that where sin abounds Grace did much more ABOUND...go study...maybe you will be enlightened!

I have no desire to argue with you, I really don't. Have you continued on to read Romans chapter 6 where Paul said that this was written that we would no longer sin in that we're supposed to be dead to sin?

 

[dcontroversal]

Where was he translated to?

Heaven?

John chapter 3 verse 13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Did Jesus lie or do you need to study more yourself?

Your barking up the wrong tree pal......Enoch did not ascend to heaven....God TOOK him to heaven and I suggest you go back to the drawing board....the bible states clearly that HE DID NOT SEE DEATH which contradicts both YOU and your working for salvation pal!

 

[blue_ladybug]

​geesh, so much snarkiness in the BAF today.. then again, it's to be expected..lol..

 

[posthuman]

​geesh, so much snarkiness in the BAF today.. then again, it's to be expected..lol..

i ban Lady Blue for anti-snarkiness snark!

((am i in the right thread?)) ​

 

[dcontroversal]

I have no desire to argue with you, I really don't. Have you continued on to read Romans chapter 6 where Paul said that this was written that we would no longer sin in that we're supposed to be dead to sin?

Yeah I have read it..as a matter of fact I started studying before you were even born.....and like your working for salvation buddies that have no leg to stand on they immediately start attributing things I did not say or imply...where did I write to keep on living in sin?

 

[ember]

22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

Jesus drove out the demon and the Pharisees said the devil gave Him the power to do so

It is my understanding that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is attributing the work of God's Spirit to the devil



Why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit the unpardonable sin?

Referring to Matthew 12:31 Jesus says, "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." Consider the background of this verse. In chapter 11 certain Jewish cities rejected Jesus. Also, John the Baptist raised serious doubts about Jesus because his expectations were not fulfilled. Matthew 12:31,32 refers to the most serious rejection of Jesus-the rejection of the Pharisees.
One of the rejection episodes is in the Beelzebub story (Matthew 12:22-37). It begins when Jesus heals a blind mute. The frightening thing for the Jewish leaders is that the people are so enthused by the miracle that they begin to wonder out loud if Jesus might not be "the Son of David"-that is, the Messiah (vs. 23).
The frustrated Pharisees cannot deny the reality of the miracle, but they can deny that it came from God. Their solution is that Jesus is in league with the "prince of demons" (vs. 24).
Jesus immediately takes the offensive by telling them that if He were curing people through the power of demons, then Satan's kingdom would be divided against itself and would be in ruins (vss. 25-28). Jesus argues that actually, he is the devil's greatest enemy. He likens Himself to a thief who ties a strong man up so he can raid his house (vs. 29). In other words, Jesus the Christ (God with us) has invaded the territory of "the prince of this world" (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11) to rescue God's children.
The climax of the confrontation in the Beelzebub story comes in Matthew 12:30-32. In this passage Jesus not only warns His hearers that there is no neutrality in the great struggle between good and evil, but He goes on to say that anyone who credits the work of God to the devil has committed the unpardonable sin (vs. 31). While it is technically true that people can speak against the Son and still be forgiven, they cannot do so and be forgiven if they are under the conviction of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Messiah. To do so would be to reject the prompting of the Holy Spirit in their heart and mind. The result is a hardened conscience (1 Timothy 4:2); Titus 1:15) that can no longer respond to the Spirit's work of leading people to repent of and confess their sin (John 16:8). Such rejecters are beyond the reach of God's Spirit, for they have tuned out the only channel through which God can reach them. When that is done, they are beyond hope. They have committed the unforgivable sin.

SOURCE

 

[dcontroversal]

22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

Jesus drove out the demon and the Pharisees said the devil gave Him the power to do so

It is my understanding that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is attributing the work of God's Spirit to the devil



Why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit the unpardonable sin?

Referring to Matthew 12:31 Jesus says, "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." Consider the background of this verse. In chapter 11 certain Jewish cities rejected Jesus. Also, John the Baptist raised serious doubts about Jesus because his expectations were not fulfilled. Matthew 12:31,32 refers to the most serious rejection of Jesus-the rejection of the Pharisees.
One of the rejection episodes is in the Beelzebub story (Matthew 12:22-37). It begins when Jesus heals a blind mute. The frightening thing for the Jewish leaders is that the people are so enthused by the miracle that they begin to wonder out loud if Jesus might not be "the Son of David"-that is, the Messiah (vs. 23).
The frustrated Pharisees cannot deny the reality of the miracle, but they can deny that it came from God. Their solution is that Jesus is in league with the "prince of demons" (vs. 24).
Jesus immediately takes the offensive by telling them that if He were curing people through the power of demons, then Satan's kingdom would be divided against itself and would be in ruins (vss. 25-28). Jesus argues that actually, he is the devil's greatest enemy. He likens Himself to a thief who ties a strong man up so he can raid his house (vs. 29). In other words, Jesus the Christ (God with us) has invaded the territory of "the prince of this world" (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11) to rescue God's children.
The climax of the confrontation in the Beelzebub story comes in Matthew 12:30-32. In this passage Jesus not only warns His hearers that there is no neutrality in the great struggle between good and evil, but He goes on to say that anyone who credits the work of God to the devil has committed the unpardonable sin (vs. 31). While it is technically true that people can speak against the Son and still be forgiven, they cannot do so and be forgiven if they are under the conviction of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Messiah. To do so would be to reject the prompting of the Holy Spirit in their heart and mind. The result is a hardened conscience (1 Timothy 4:2); Titus 1:15) that can no longer respond to the Spirit's work of leading people to repent of and confess their sin (John 16:8). Such rejecters are beyond the reach of God's Spirit, for they have tuned out the only channel through which God can reach them. When that is done, they are beyond hope. They have committed the unforgivable sin.

SOURCE

Amen and boiled down to a permanent state of unbelief which is unforgivable.....

 

[blue_ladybug]

i ban Lady Blue for anti-snarkiness snark!

((am i in the right thread?))

​

​no, foolish, you aren't.. and I ban YOU for anti-snarkiness snarkism..

 

[p_rehbein]

With regards to Matthew18:21 and the forgiving of a brother 70 times 7, it is important to read the example Jesus provides as well in my opinion.

Matthes 18:21) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 .) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 .) Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 .) And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 .) But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 .) The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 .) Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 .) But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 .) And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 .) And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 .) So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 .) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 .) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 .) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 .) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

With regards to the title of the thread………The Lord of this servant had pity on him because the servant sought such……”repented”………..then that same servant WHOSE DEBT HAD BEEN FORGIVEN went right back out and failed to do the same for one who was indebted to him. Because of this, his Lord delievered him to the tormenters……..and Jesus clearly says
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Ok, with this one, I’m confused as well.

QUOTE: No, it's a one time repentance and acknowledgment of our fallen state before a perfect and holy God. It's also having the faith that God sent His son to suffer and die for our sins, past, present and future. If a believer turns from Christ then I'd semi agree with you, but their not lost, not until they die without Christ. We have an ongoing attitude of repentance because we know sin hinders our relationship with God and our effectiveness in doing His will, mainly witnessing.

Just because a Christians slips up and sins doesn't mean they have turned from following Christ, doesn't mean they lost their salvation, it just means they stumbled. IMO, a true Christian will repent of this, if he/she is aware of it. It they don't repent, then perhaps they never had Christ to being with.

So, to clarify, may I ask: If this Christian in your example slips up and sins unintentionally…and they are a “true Christian” as you say, and should repent but dies before they do repent, what then? And how can one be considered a “true Christian,” and never had Christ to begin with? That is confusing to me.

As well, if Jesus died ONCE for ALL our sins, past – present and future (which I agree with), and repentance is NOT REQUIRED, why exactly would we have an “ongoing attitude” of repentance?” It seems to me that this would be as distracting as the temptation of/to sin we face in our daily lives as well, if one believes one ONLY HAS TO REPENT one time for all time.

I know you didn’t say that last part, I’m saying it because I have read such said before on these Forums.

With regards to this comment: If a believer turns from Christ then I'd semi agree with you, but their not lost, not until they die without Christ

May I ask if/when a believer “turns from Christ,” are they STILL abiding in Christ? Or, has their “turning” separated them from Christ? Can one “abide in Christ” while in disobedience to Christ?
And, I believe, the point of this thread as I read it, was addressing one dying without repenting of sins they committed. And you clearly state if they do this, then they ARE LOST. And I agree………..What confuses me is why people still insist it is NOT NECESSARY for one to repent more than once. As well, if salvation cannot be “lost,” then how does one who turns from Christ and dies before they repent end up “lost?”

Just curious, and, admittedly confused…….and just using your comments because I know you better than most of the others commenting here, and you know that I’m not being “snarky,” but rather seeking clarification and understanding.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth, I don't know if you know it or not, but you fell off my radar some time ago as your view lacks any real credence and or believability.....so......sorry, but your view means nothing to me and many here.....there are a few blind ones who agree with you, but for the most part...not many!

Well of course I am not on your radar because of your constant twist of scripture, and denial of what it truly says.
The truth will never be accepted by somebody like you who puts your faith in your own man made doctrine, and not what the bible actually says.

I gave you Matthew 25's sheep and the goats, and Matthew 7:21-23 which come directly from the Lord Himself, and you deny clearly what both of these say.

Lord Jesus says and shows in both of these that not everybody who calls Him Lord will get eternal life, because some will not walk the proper path and continue to live a sinful lifestyle.

Believing in the Lord means more then just accepting that He lived, died on the cross, and rose on third day.
Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul both show very clearly that those things mean nothing if the person continues to live however they want. Obeying the lusts of the flesh which is to be carnally minded, as it shows clearly those who walk by the flesh and have hatred for others in side them do not have eternal life........

It shows this in Johns epistle as well that a person does not have eternal life if there walk is filled with hatred and sinfulness.....


Now you have the Lord and two of His Apostles agreeing that how one walks matters when it comes to salvation, so you have three witnesses from the bible that agree. The bible says this is all you need to know the truth, but how many more witnesses do you need before you realize how you walk in the faith matters.

Do you need Hebrews also that says those who continue to willfully sin will fact God at judgement and the lake of fire, or do you need the Apostle James who also says that if a believer wanders away from the truth only if they are brought back to the Lord will their soul be saved.

Now you have 5 witnesses from the bible that agree; Jesus, Paul, John, James, and the writer of Hebrews

Do I need to go on because you need more witnesses or is 5 witnesses from the bible enough to prove one's walk matters and goes hand and hand with faith for salvation ???

 

[ember]

Amen and boiled down to a permanent state of unbelief which is unforgivable.....

well yeah

I'm not sure how unbelief in Christ is the unpardonable sin? because then would anyone ever be saved?

I have always heard and agree with the statement that it is attributing to the devil the works of the Holy Spirit and Matthew 12 is the source of the question...regarding the unpardonable sin...and the words of Jesus do not indicate anything other than giving the devil credit for what He was doing by the power of God

anyway

 

[dcontroversal]

Well of course I am not on your radar because of your constant twist of scripture, and denial of what it truly says.
The truth will never be accepted by somebody like you who puts your faith in your own man made doctrine, and not what the bible actually says.

I gave you Matthew 25's sheep and the goats, and Matthew 7:21-23 which come directly from the Lord Himself, and you deny clearly what both of these say.

Lord Jesus says and shows in both of these that not everybody who calls Him Lord will get eternal life, because some will not walk the proper path and continue to live a sinful lifestyle.

Believing in the Lord means more then just accepting that He lived, died on the cross, and rose on third day.
Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul both show very clearly that those things mean nothing if the person continues to live however they want. Obeying the lusts of the flesh which is to be carnally minded, as it shows clearly those who walk by the flesh and have hatred for others in side them do not have eternal life........

It shows this in Johns epistle as well that a person does not have eternal life if there walk is filled with hatred and sinfulness.....


Now you have the Lord and two of His Apostles agreeing that how one walks matters when it comes to salvation, so you have three witnesses from the bible that agree. The bible says this is all you need to know the truth, but how many more witnesses do you need before you realize how you walk in the faith matters.

Do you need Hebrews also that says those who continue to willfully sin will fact God at judgement and the lake of fire, or do you need the Apostle James who also says that if a believer wanders away from the truth only if they are brought back to the Lord will their soul be saved.

Now you have 5 witnesses from the bible that agree; Jesus, Paul, John, James, and the writer of Hebrews

Do I need to go on because you need more witnesses or is 5 witnesses from the bible enough to prove one's walk matters and goes hand and hand with faith for salvation ???

Look the only twist on scriptures comes from you...my bible teaches that my faith in Christ has saved me (past tense) that I an justified, sealed and sanctified in Christ eternally...that I am in the Father's hand, in the Son's hand and that NOTHING can separate me from the love of God and that Jesus will NEVER leave me nor FORSAKE ME......maybe your problem is a rejection of the words used and or applied such as Eternal, everlasting, NEVER Forsake, NOTHING can separate, justified, sealed, sanctified, saved etc.......

 

[Utah]

Would you rather that I just ignore slanders, false accusations and distortions of what people have actually said

I did no such thing. Like I said, its what the dude stands for. Condemnation and fear is what he brings to the table all day, everyday. You're here 12 hours and 37 minutes and you think you know what's going on around here. Maybe a little less typing and some more reading on your part and you'll learn a thing or two about the varying spirits, especially those spirits that are in opposition to Christ's saving grace.

 

[kennethcadwell]

No that is what took place.....receive or not..I could care less Kenneth!

Another one liner negative response when what I did was give you more biblical references to prove the truth in God's word.

I have received the truth which is why I do not deny that my walk is guided by the Holy Spirit, which the scriptures clearly show that if your walk does not go hand and hand with the faith in Jesus Christ, eternal life does not abide in you.
If you want to keep rejecting clear scriptures from Paul, John, and James that shows your walk does matter when it comes to salvation because it is outer proof that the person is saved through Christ that is up to you. For me I am not going to reject His words.

How is a person suppose to know a unsaved false teacher from a saved true teacher of the word if like you speak we all look and act the same ????


The bible says you will know them by their fruits, and those fruits result in action, speech, and how they treat others. Jesus said we will know the true believers from the false by these fruits, but you are making it to where we can not by pretty much saying we all act the same and all continue to sin constantly........If a person continues to sin constantly everyday all day then they are not born again, or just became born again to where they are struggling to give up the past life.
The bible makes it clear a mature believer in the faith will not continue in a sinful lifestyle every single day like that, if you believe we will then I am sorry but you still have some growing in the faith to be done.....

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Problem is there are a lot of people who believe the way you do, that they are eternally saved right at this moment.

The issue is though is that when judgement comes around some to most of them will be told by the Lord He never knew them because they continued to live a life of being unloving and uncaring toward others, and continued to live a sinful lifestyle because they trusted that only believing Jesus exists is enough.

Matthew 25:31-46 both the sheep and the goats believed in Jesus and called Him Lord, but only the sheep get eternal life because they did the will of God by walking in love and helping out others. The goats did not do the Fathers will and turned those away who needed help and therefore was sent to eternal punishment.

Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus shows the same thing that not everybody who calls Him Lord will get eternal life, only those who does the Fathers will in their life and turns away from their sinful ways.

Those who continue to sin willfully rather they call Jesus their Lord will not get eternal life do to their our right rejection of the Holy Spirit's guidance. These are the one's Hebrews says that trample on the blood of Christ and therefore do not receive remission but will face God at judgement and cast into the lake of fire.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 . . . NO IFS, ANDS or BUTS . . . .

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9,10 . . . NO IFS, ANDS or BUTS . . .

Now, if you go and pit scripture against what I have posted - you are in essence saying that God lied in the above two verses. . . . THE ABOVE IS SALVATION . . . NOT OUR WALK . . . We will be judged for the good or bad we have done in OUR WALK at the judgment seat of Christ - Whatever is not burned when we are purged - we will be awarded - whatever is burned, doesn't remain - we lose rewards, but we will be saved.