Do you really want to be "Born Again?" Is this technically correct?

[RomansToPhilemon]

A little truth mixed with a lot of error equals what? Proceed with caution.

Not an argument.

 

[trofimus]

Although the passage in the gospel of John is best to be translated "to be born from above" (anóthen), there is also a verse in the 1Peter 1:23 that is best to translate "born again" (anagennein):


"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

So the phrase is not wrong as is used, even though the place in John can be translated differently.

 

[Chester]

The fact that you understand the bible dispensationally and understand that the KJB is the only true word of God is 90% of the battle as you probably well know.

Scripture for that?

 

[Chester]

You use the NIV. There is nothing we can even discuss about the matter of this thread. You need to figure out why the NIV contradicts the KJB. Both are supposed the word of God, but both disagree with each other??? What kind of God are you believing in....

Which bible is from God? Which one is Satan's counterfeit? That's the issue you need to figure out. It may even help your nasty attitude

Do you believe that the KJV has word for word the exact words and letters as the authors of the Bible wrote it down?

I do not think the original manuscripts were written in English!

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

Do you believe that the KJV has word for word the exact words and letters as the authors of the Bible wrote it down?

I do not think the original manuscripts were written in English!

Did you know God can speak in English? And his words are the same is if he said it in Spanish? And if he had said it in German. etc etc.

1 Cor 14.21 (Paul speaking, quoting Isaiah 28)

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

No, what I do believe is that the NIV is translated from the Alexandrian manuscripts - that's a fact. And that the KJB is translated from the Antioch line of manuscripts - that is a fact. In fact, every bible, except the KJB, is translated from the Alexandrian line. With a little rigorous study on the matter, you will quickly figure out that the Alexandrian line of manuscripts are corrupted and not the word of God. As far as going from the originals to into English is not even an issue. Not for the bible anyways.

There are examples were the word of the Lord were sent out to all nations and were translated and were treated just as if they were the same thing as from God. Translation does not need to be verbatim word for word exact. As long as the context is kept and the sense is still here. I think the KJB does this without a doubt. It's had 400+ years of scrutiny and examination.

Here is one example where translating from the original to another language is acceptable by God. No need to go to Hebrew and Greek to redefine your bible. I think the people who wrote the KJB and all the people who critique it have a better understanding of the issue than you or I do.

Zechariah 8.23
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

This is the purpose for tongues.

Acts 2.4
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Ester 1.21
And the saying pleased the king and the princes; and the king did according to the word of Memucan: For he sent letters into all the king’s provinces, into every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language, that every man should bear rule in his own house, and that it should be published according to the language of every people.

As the Kings speech is uttered into Latin, German, Swahili, Manderen....it is till God's word. God's word must be known to ALL NATIONS. All languages. So no, the Original's do not have to be a exact perfect translation. Anytime you translate from one language to another, there is going to be slight various. But the context and the sense are still there!

The issue with NIV and others is not the translation. It's the manuscripts from which they come from. And all of the "agendas" where these translations come from. The KJB is the only bible that doesn't have a copy right. Everyone else wants permission to use their verses lol. You have to write to them and ask permission to use God's word. How convenient. $$$$Money$$$$ Christianity is a big business. And Satan's got a counterfeit manuscript.

[video=youtube;R2sktVhY5vg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2sktVhY5vg[/video]

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by RomansToPhilemon

The fact that you understand the bible dispensationally and understand that the KJB is the only true word of God is 90% of the battle as you probably well know.

Scripture for that?

The King James "version" fallacy that it is the only bible shows it's true colors in that some of the doctrines that it's adherents come up with can only be found in that translation. The spiritual ignorance of this is astounding.

It is a good translation and like every other translation made by man - it has errors and this has been proven time and time again. All anyone needs to do is go to any other KJ "version" only threads and it all comes to light.

It's most likely a completer waste of time trying to tell them the difference but at least young Christians reading this can go to the threads and find out the truth themselves.

 

[Chester]

Something tells me you didn't read the study. Don't make it so obvious next time ;P

I think he read his Bible!

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

Originally Posted by RomansToPhilemon

The fact that you understand the bible dispensationally and understand that the KJB is the only true word of God is 90% of the battle as you probably well know.

The King James "version" fallacy that it is the only bible shows it's true colors in that some of the doctrines that it's adherents come up with can only be found in that translation. The spiritual ignorance of this is astounding.

If you have 2 books. Both claim to be the word of God. And Both books don't agree with each other. Then you would think that only one book can be true. Apparently, you like the translation that you use. And you probably use other translations. The funny thing about that is - that if you take your translation and compare it to another Alexandrian translation, it won't agree with it either in many points! None of the Alexandrian manuscripts agree with each other. There is only 5% of them too if you didn't know. The other 95% of manuscripts come from Antioch and ALL agree with each other. The only manuscripts that are odd balls are the 5% Alexandrian line. They don't even have like some 40 chapters of Genesis lol. That's God's book to you???!?!?!?!?

Here is a video that goes over this very issue!

[video=youtube;RL1px3GRfo4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL1px3GRfo4[/video]

 

[trofimus]

None of the Alexandrian manuscripts agree with each other.

Depends what you mean by "agree". Every word the same? No, they do not agree. There are no two manuscripts in the whole world that agree 100% with each other, alexandrine or byzantine.

There is only 5% of them too if you didn't know.

Partly true. When you realize that the western Europe used Latin instead of Greek and take the Latin manuscripts into consideration, the situation differs dramatically.

The other 95% of manuscripts come from Antioch and ALL agree with each other.

Not true. If you are talking about the majority byzantine text, they are from much wider area than just Antioch.
Alghough they are quite similar to each other, there are many differences betwen them too. The differences are the worst in the case of Revelation, for example.

The only manuscripts that are odd balls are the 5% Alexandrian line. They don't even have like some 40 chapters of Genesis lol.

The Old Testament of the Greek manuscripts is the LXX. Your KJV uses the Hebrew text, not the LXX (as every other Bible out there), so the OT in Greek manuscripts is irrelevant for the topic, because it is not used in Bible translations, at all.

 

[Dino246]

Yes, most likely because he doesn't use a King James Bible. Where the newer versions use the corrupted manuscripts and teach salvation by works and remove the plural and corporate structure of many verses. ... Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.

Completely loses the fact he addresses Nick and then changes subjects and state Israel. Big deceptions in other bibles.

A difference in translation does not mean a deception. This is propaganda of the KJV-only movement.

You use the NIV. There is nothing we can even discuss about the matter of this thread. You need to figure out why the NIV contradicts the KJB. Both are supposed the word of God, but both disagree with each other??? .... Which bible is from God? Which one is Satan's counterfeit? That's the issue you need to figure out. It may even help your nasty attitude

This is a false dichotomy, and a poor conclusion. If you have "two bibles" which differ, you don't necessarily have the real one and a false one. You would do well to do some reading on the KJV-only issue from non-KJV-only sources. Try James White's The King James Only Controversy.

 

[Grace777x70]

This below is another reason why the website used in trying to show that Peter and Paul had a different gospel and that those saved before Paul talked with them were not in the body of Christ. not to mention the foolishness that the King James "version" of the bible is the only word of God.

Here is their view on tongues and that some gifts stopped after the "perfection came".

Quote:

Even so, the supernatural ability to speak in unknown tongues was a gift of God that ceased when a perfection of understanding was made known (1 Cor 13:10-11). There is no need for this foundational gift any longer.

Unquote:

Should I Speak in Tongues?

These group is obviously lacking in spiritual understanding in a few areas but the revelation of the mystery which is Christ Himself and that the riches of this mystery is that Christ is in us is paramount to us growing up in Christ. Let's not throw the baby out with the dirty water.

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

A difference in translation does not mean a deception. This is propaganda of the KJV-only movement.



This is a false dichotomy, and a poor conclusion. If you have "two bibles" which differ, you don't necessarily have the real one and a false one. You would do well to do some reading on the KJV-only issue from non-KJV-only sources. Try James White's The King James Only Controversy.

Yeah, I have study the issue with over 3000 hours of study. I'm well aware of the issue and very aware of James White and his love for Calvinism. It's no marvel he hates the KJB, because the other translations let him get away with Calvinism.

 

[zone]

This is not about one wanting to be saved. I am simply talking about the fact how people use this phrase "I'm a born again believer!" But is that really a true statement? Now I understand when a saint says this, they simply mean they are a saved believer. I'm not refuting this. I am wanting to examine the text with a little magnifying glass that will surprisingly show that the phrase "ye must be born again" is technically a phrase only referring to the nation of Israel that MUST be born again. Here is the deep study by a pastor. I'll also leave a video from Ron Knight who goes over this issue as well.

“Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again”–John 3:7

By Richard Jordan

Undoubtedly Nicodemus was startled. The emphatic and penetrating statements of Christ had raised issues that had not previously engaged his attention. Yet, really, he ought not to have been so shaken and bewildered. Thus Christ’s gently rebuking, “Marvel not.”

We say this was a gentle rebuke for after further explaining the process of this new birth (v. 8), He responds to the dullness of Nicodemus (v.9) in much sharper terms:

“Jesus answered and said unto him, ART THOU A MASTER OF ISRAEL, AND KNOWEST NOT THESE THINGS?
“Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and YE RECEIVE NOT OUR WITNESS” (John 3:10-12).

Before we think too poorly of Nicodemus, however, we should reflect upon the fact that this very subject is still one that eludes the grasp of most today. Although the term “born again” has come into popular usage, who can deny that its Scriptural meaning and significance has been almost totally lost and unnoticed.

The basic issue involved in the new birth is not reformation, nor is it religion; the basic issue is the doctrine of regeneration. This is clear from Christ’s words to Nicodemus in John 3:5,6,

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

Notice how careful the Lord is to define the character of the new birth: It is not the reformation of the outward man, nor the education of the natural man, nor the purification of the old man for “that which is born of the flesh is flesh.” Rather it is the Spirit of God giving birth to a new life–a divine life and nature. It is partaking of the Divine nature (II Pet. 1:4). Simply put, it is being born of God–“that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

A COMMON DOCTRINE

Regeneration–i.e., being “born of the Spirit”–is a doctrine associated in Scripture with God’s dealings both with the nation Israel and the Body of Christ. In fact, the word itself is found only twice in the Bible, once in relation to Israel’s program and once in reference to the Body of Christ.

The first occurrence is found in Matthew 19:28, where Christ is speaking to His Apostles:

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, IN THE REGENERATION when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Notice carefully the wording here: “In the regeneration WHEN the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory.” This is a future regeneration associated with the time when Christ sits on “the throne of His glory.” Regeneration, then, for Israel is clearly a part of her kingdom program and hope.

The second occurrence is from the pen of the Apostle Paul:

“But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared.
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by THE WASHING OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Tit. 3:4,5).

Obviously the doctrine of regeneration is a spiritual truth which plays an integral part in God’s purpose for both Israel’s future kingdom program and the current administration of grace. Thus we must be careful to distinguish the dual applications of this doctrine.

A CONTRASTING APPLICATION

Too often the true significance of John 3:7 is overlooked due to a failure to appreciate its usage of the second person pronouns “thee” and “ye.” Notice the verse carefully:

“Marvel not that I said unto THEE, YE must be born again.”

To the modern reader this may seem unimportant since most of us do not so readily understand the significance of the “thee, thou, ye, you” contrasts in our Bible. A bit of investigation, however, on this point will yield great rewards.

“Thee, thou” and “ye, you” are respectively the singular and plural forms of the second person pronoun. While our modern English uses the pronoun “you” for both singular and plural, the older English was able to distinguish between in singular (thee, thou) and plural (ye, you). Thus “thee, thou” refers to an individual while “ye, you” refers to a group. This same distinction is made in many modern languages and, more importantly, is used by the Greek language of the New Testament.

(This explains why God is never addressed in the Bible by the word “you.” There is one God and He is always to be addressed in the singular. Thus the use of the grave style in addressing God in prayer is not simply a matter of reverence or respect–it is also a simple matter of grammar!)

Thus our Lord was, in fact, saying to Nicodemus,

“Marvel not that I say unto THEE [i.e., Nicodemus], YE[i.e., the nation Israel] must be born again.”

(As an aside, it is interesting to observe that one of the very things often used to complain against the King James Bible is in reality a tremendously helpful study aid! Try it in other passages, such as Matt. 16:18,19; 18:18, Luke 22:31-34, etc.)

In light of this, we should look carefully at Israel’s history: As a nation, Israel was born the first time when God led them out of Egypt. Two passages that make this very clear are Ex. 4:22 and Deut. 32:18. In the former, God declares Israel to be His “first born” and thus Moses later rebuked them:

“OF THE ROCK THAT BEGAT THEE thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.”

The Exodus from Egypt marks the birth of the nation Israel and stands as the great declaration of God’s purpose for that specially favored people. Paul alludes to this in 1 Cor. 10:1,2:

“Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, now that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
“And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.”

They were “baptized unto Moses” and born as a nation. It is almost humorous–tragically so–to hear Moses “arguing” with the Lord over His rebellious people, saying,

“…Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favor in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?
“HAVE I CONCEIVED ALL THIS PEOPLE? HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEM…” (Num 11:11, 12).

The point to notice here is that Moses clearly acknowledged that it was God who had conceived and given birth to this nation. They were His! And we are not left to wonder about His purpose for them:

“And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
“Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
“Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
“And YE SHALL BE UNTO ME A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, AND AN HOLY NATION. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel” (Ex. 19:3-6).

God gave birth to a nation which was to be a holy nation, “a kingdom of priests.” They were to be the agency and channel through whom His salvation and blessing was to be carried to “all the nations of the earth.” This was what He had promised Abraham, when He had said:

“And I WILL MAKE OF THEE A GREAT NATION, and I will bless thee and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
“And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and IN THEE SHALL ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED” (Gen 12:2,3).

This was the hope set before them through the prophets He sent to them. For example, Isaiah declares,

“But YE SHALL BE NAMED THE PRIEST OF THE LORD: MEN SHALL CALL YOU THE MINISTERS OF OUR GOD: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves” (Isa. 61:6).

We do not have to read the sacred page for long, however, to learn the obvious fact that Israel failed–failed miserably–to keep the covenant made with them through Moses. Because they did not keep the Law, they were under the curse of God. Thus it became necessary for God to bring the nation to birth again–through new covenant and a new deliverer, a “greater than Moses.”

Jer. 31:31-34 teaches that God was to make a “new covenant” with Israel, one which would provide regeneration and forgiveness of sin for the nation. When this new covenant is realized, it will issue in spiritual regeneration and a resultant physical restoration for the national people of Israel. As it were, the nation will be born in a day (Isa. 66:8).

It was to this prophesied rebirth of the nation that our Lord pointed Nicodemus in John 3 and which he was so painfully unable to comprehend. Notice once again how the Lord used the “thou–ye” contrast as He responded to Nicodemus’ dullness:

“…Art THOU a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
“Verily, verily I say unto THEE, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and YE receive not our witness” (vs. 10,11).

Sadly, even the very teachers and leaders of God’s favored people could not see the nation’s true condition and need! Israel had lived under the Mosaic Covenant for nearly 1500 years and had failed to meet their end of the agreement over and over again. Their continued rebellion had led God to allow their deportation and captivity in Babylon so that the land, at least, could have its rest (II Chron. 36:20-21). It was during this time of captivity that Jeremiah had written about the “new covenant” through which God would provide regeneration and restoration for Israel.

This was also the time of Ezekiel and his prophecies concerning the future regeneration of Israel–a regeneration which would result in the glorious physical restoration of Israel and ultimately the whole earth. In fact, our Lord’s words in John 3:5 seem certain to have Ezek. 36:25-30 in mind–a passage clearly describing the Divine preparation of Israel for her kingdom.

Also, in light of our Lord’s words to Nicodemas in John 3:14, it is instructive to note that Psalms 22–a Psalm clearly associated with His being “lifted up”–concludes where John 3 beings:

“For the kingdom is the Lord’s and he is the governor among the nations.

“A SEED SHALL SERVE HIM; it shall be accounted to the Lord FOR A GENERATION.
“They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto A PEOPLE THAT SHALL BE BORN, that he hath done this (Psa. 22:28,30,31).

The infancy stage of this “born again” nation is to be found among Christ’s followers. He had promised them:

“Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom” (Luke 12:32).

Thus we are not surprised to find the Apostle Peter later writing to the believers who comprised this “little flock,”

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath BEGOTTEN US AGAIN unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”
“BEING BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever” (I Peter 1:3, 23).

And there can be no doubt as to the hope and calling of those who had thus been born again for he goes on to identify them:

“But YE ARE A CHOSEN GENERATION, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, AN HOLY NATION, A PECULIAR PEOPLE; that ye should shew forth the raises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light” (I Pet. 2:9).

The new birth spoken of by the Lord Jesus in John 3 is a reference to the future birth of the nation Israel when she is to be spiritually cleansed and then possess her land forever. But what about the Body of Christ and the believer today? If the new birth refers to the future hope of the nation Israel, do saved individuals today experience a new birth or does God have something else for them? Remember: both Israel and the Body of Christ are regenerated–but into what?

There can be no doubt that today when a person places faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior–when you rely exclusively on what Jesus Christ did for you at Calvary when He died to pay for your sins and was raised as the author of eternal live to those who trust Him; when you trust Christ today, that very moment God the Holy Spirit imparts His life to you.

Thus Paul declares:

“And YOU HATH HE QUICKENED, WHO WERE DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS’
“EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, [GOD] HATH QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST (by grace are ye saved)” (Eph 2:1, 5).

We are therefore said to be “His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus” (Eph 2:10). But just what is it God is creating today? Eph. 2:15,16 spell it out clearly:

“Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for TO MAKE IN HIMSELF OF TWAIN ONE NEW MAN, so making peace;
“And that he might RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD IN ONE BODY by the Cross, having slain the enmity thereby.”

This is the “new creation” which God is forming during the dispensation of grace. God has temporarily set aside the nation Israel and His program for her (Rom. 11:11-15) in order to form another agency (Eph. 2:11-16) through whom He will accomplish a purpose which He planned “before the world began.” This other purpose is called “the mystery” because He kept it secret–“hid in God” (Eph. 3:9)–until He revealed it to that other apostle, the Apostle Paul. It is summed up in the words of Eph. 2:7:

“That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.”

Today God is creating a new species of humanity–“neither Jew nor Gentile.” Just as Adam was not born but was rather created, so we go from the old creation into the new creation as we go from Adam into Christ!

To sum up: Regeneration is associated with God’s program for both Israel and the Body of Christ. Regeneration for a Jew in the kingdom program made him a part of a born again nation. Regeneration for a person in the dispensation of grace makes him a part of the Body of Christ, a new creation.

A CONCLUDING QUESTION

Every person reading this article was born into this world spiritually dead in sins, “alienated from the life of God.” The question is: Have you been regenerated? Have you passed from spiritual death to spiritual life by placing your faith in the finished work of Christ? If not, do so now!

[video=youtube;u7Y2Kvm1-N0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Y2Kvm1-N0[/video]

DUAL COVENANT THEOLOGY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-covenant_theology

 

[zone]

 

[dcontroversal]

Born of incorruptible seed......except a man be born again (or from above).......born of the SPIRIT......

 

[phil36]

Yeah, I have study the issue with over 3000 hours of study. I'm well aware of the issue and very aware of James White and his love for Calvinism. It's no marvel he hates the KJB, because the other translations let him get away with Calvinism.

James white '''hates''' the KJB?? so much for over 3000 hours of study!

 

[John146]

James white '''hates''' the KJB?? so much for over 3000 hours of study!

Of course he does. It takes the final authority away from his scholarship.

 

[Dino246]

Yeah, I have study the issue with over 3000 hours of study. I'm well aware of the issue and very aware of James White and his love for Calvinism. It's no marvel he hates the KJB, because the other translations let him get away with Calvinism.

Of course he does. It takes the final authority away from his scholarship.

Wow... clearly neither of you has read his book.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

Wow... clearly neither of you has read his book.

First I'll admit I didn't read the looooong post that started this thread.

Secondly, this thread is turning into a King Jimmy debate thread.

Third, I try to refrain from the phrase "born-again" and instead use "spiritually renewed" or "spiritually regenerated" because, reflecting on when I was Roman Catholic, I misunderstood the phrase "born-again", especially when it is was coupled with the word "Christian".

In my RC days, I believed that Christians were simply those who believed in God. If one was a "born-again Christian", then, s/he was a person who had left the faith and returned to it. The concept has it's similarities with the false notion of being a "born-again virgin".

I hope, then, that I have RCs in my reading audience, and try to avoid the words I misunderstood as a RC("born-again Christian"), and use phrases that will have a better chance of enlightening them to the personal relationship they too can have by being spiritually renewed/regenerated.

Ok...now back to the irregularly scheduled KJV-only debate p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶ propaganda that was already in regression...