Do you support female pastors?

[notuptome]

I agree, females should be ministers just as much as males are. Galatians 3:28 reads, "There is no more Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all one in Jesus Christ." Women are just as holy and just as unified with Christ as men are and can certainly be ministers. In fact, I grew up with a female minister in a Christian Reformed Church in Patterson, NJ.

The application of this verse to this subject is wholly incorrect. It is out of context. God does not call women to be pastors of a local church. God has always ordered men to be the Spiritual leaders in the congregation.

The existence of women in churches as pastors does not rectify the error but perpetuates it. Apostasy once begun is fatal to the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Lyta137]

...With reference to 1titus 2:11-13 which says (NKJV) 'let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man but to be silent... (some one quoted that)

I am a preacher (cause I preach the word) and have spoken in fellowships and unions. I was the secretary then moved to vice chairperson or chairlady for the school fellowship and the school was co-education. My post meant standing in front of the whole school every Sunday fellowship (which was compulsory for everbody else) and running the executive meetings. When my chairperson was absent, I took his position which was usual cause he was usually caught up but that didn't make much of a difference cause we always equally shared duties.

Currently by His grace, I run a devotion at my university and im also a sunday school teacher. And through that God has encouraged many and many have heard the gospel and even come to Christ. I do not mean to boast ( I will boast only in the Lord!) but I just had to speak out...

I will not let anyone look down on me because I am young or that im female...but if God wants to use me, who am I to say no. Besides isn't it what we all want, to be used by God...

If I was disobeying God's law, I don't think He would have allowed me into all this, I don't think he would have given me the grace to do all this and on top of that answered my prayers everytime I asked Him to help me prepare a message. If I was breaking the law by preaching His word, then I think He would have said so a long time ago!...

If all women sat back and said 'oh we are women, we cant preach in church' then the harvest is going to take forever because the labourers will be badly reduced!!! I think God will accept all the help He can get right now knowing that we don't have much time left...

So if female pastors, preachers and those holding high spiritual positions are demonic because its unbiblical, then there are a lot of us out there. Also then im really impressed that God can use a 'demonic' means to bring people to His kingdom...its just smart.

You know its funny, here we are talking about who should be allowed to preach and who shouldn't...I wish to see a discussion where we will focus on talking about how we should preach or where and when...not which sex should be allowed to do so. #opinion
"Thank you Lord for allowing me to post this." Romans 14:16 "therefore, do not let your good be spoken of as evil."
God bless!!

 

[angelmyst]

I can't think of any. Perhaps you can enlighten me, using scripture to back up your claims.

Our God is a god of order, not chaos. Throughout the N.T. you will see patterns, (Gr. tupos) for Christian living. There is a pattern for church government, clearly established in the 1st century church. That pattern is similar to the Christian family. Jesus is the husband, and the church is His bride. Just as Christ is the head of the church, the husband is the head of the family. Just as Christ loves and cares for His church, the husband loves and cares for his wife. Consider the following scripture:

Ephesians 5: 22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing ; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself ; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body. 31 FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32 This mystery is great ; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.

Perhaps you can explain to me how a God of order would tolerate a system where the husband is head of his wife at home, and yet must submit to her authority in spiritial matters at church!!

I could not have said it any better. It does not matter what we think or how society has changed...all that matters is ..What does the Word of God say?.
Just because a woman can be a better speaker...organizer...leader...does not qualify her to be a Pastor.
I for one am a good speaker...good leader and good organizer but I would never want to be an undershepherd to a flock and be directly accountable to God for my church members...hard enough being a mom!

 

[notuptome]

...With reference to 1titus 2:11-13 which says (NKJV) 'let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man but to be silent... (some one quoted that)

I am a preacher (cause I preach the word) and have spoken in fellowships and unions. I was the secretary then moved to vice chairperson or chairlady for the school fellowship and the school was co-education. My post meant standing in front of the whole school every Sunday fellowship (which was compulsory for everbody else) and running the executive meetings. When my chairperson was absent, I took his position which was usual cause he was usually caught up but that didn't make much of a difference cause we always equally shared duties.

Currently by His grace, I run a devotion at my university and im also a sunday school teacher. And through that God has encouraged many and many have heard the gospel and even come to Christ. I do not mean to boast ( I will boast only in the Lord!) but I just had to speak out...

I will not let anyone look down on me because I am young or that im female...but if God wants to use me, who am I to say no. Besides isn't it what we all want, to be used by God...

If I was disobeying God's law, I don't think He would have allowed me into all this, I don't think he would have given me the grace to do all this and on top of that answered my prayers everytime I asked Him to help me prepare a message. If I was breaking the law by preaching His word, then I think He would have said so a long time ago!...

If all women sat back and said 'oh we are women, we cant preach in church' then the harvest is going to take forever because the labourers will be badly reduced!!! I think God will accept all the help He can get right now knowing that we don't have much time left...

So if female pastors, preachers and those holding high spiritual positions are demonic because its unbiblical, then there are a lot of us out there. Also then im really impressed that God can use a 'demonic' means to bring people to His kingdom...its just smart.

You know its funny, here we are talking about who should be allowed to preach and who shouldn't...I wish to see a discussion where we will focus on talking about how we should preach or where and when...not which sex should be allowed to do so. #opinion
"Thank you Lord for allowing me to post this." Romans 14:16 "therefore, do not let your good be spoken of as evil."
God bless!!

So you reference a verse and then proceed to post in direct opposition to the verse and that without apology. Show me one place in scripture where God operates in opposition to what He has declared in His word. Just one place.

You claim to do good but so do many in the last day when the Lord Himself tells them to depart for the never knew Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[posthuman]

someone has said, when confronted with a woman preaching, that the real shame isn't that it is a woman giving out the Word, but that no man could be found to take her place.

 

[Misty77]

someone has said, when confronted with a woman preaching, that the real shame isn't that it is a woman giving out the Word, but that no man could be found to take her place.

So women are like the "B" team? God gave us brains "just in case" no man could figure out what he was supposed to do? I guess we're just supposed to pop out babies on the sidelines until y'all screw up, according to that logic.

 

[jag1977]

...if all women sat back and said 'oh we are women, we cant preach in church' then the harvest is going to take forever because the labourers will be badly reduced!!! I think God will accept all the help He can get right now knowing that we don't have much time left...!

What does this mean?

 

[notuptome]

So women are like the "B" team? God gave us brains "just in case" no man could figure out what he was supposed to do? I guess we're just supposed to pop out babies on the sidelines until y'all screw up, according to that logic.

We are supposed to ask the Lord to provide His man to pastor the local church. Problem is that what we want and what God wants to send us is often very different.

You have not because you ask amiss. God is not unable to perform but He will not send a preacher to a congregation that wants only to have their ears tickled. Someone else will send a teacher to fill that post.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Lyta137]

So you reference a verse and then proceed to post in direct opposition to the verse and that without apology. Show me one place in scripture where God operates in opposition to what He has declared in His word. Just one place.

You claim to do good but so do many in the last day when the Lord Himself tells them to depart for the never knew Him.

The Holy Spirit made me understand something recently that weirdly or rather amazingly connects to this. Romans 14:21 "the right thing to do is to keep from eating meat, drinking wine....." 1kings 17:6 "he drank water from the brook and the ravens brought Him bread and meat every morning and evening" Now God wouldn't give him something to eat that wasn't right. whats my point? Paul in the former scripture was stating his opinion just like he did in 1st Corinthians 7:25 "...I do not have a command from the Lord, but I give my opinion..." also later in verse 40 "she will be happier, however, if she stays as she is. That is my opinion..." there is a possibility that the verse I quoted could have been another of Pauls opinions. As Paul was entitled to His opinion, im entitled to mine too and that is why at the end of my post I state '#opinion'.

And no where in my post do I say that I do good, so I don't know where the claiming to do good statement is coming from. My point from what I stated (maybe I should mention that again) is that Ive been in those positions that Pauls (in his opinion 'possibly') is against. And in that im saying it surprises me because God has never convicted me to stop but rather helped me otherwise. I hope that settles it.

Thanks for your post however Mr. Rodgers...God bless! always remembering to smile...

 

[Angela53510]

Yes there is a qualification.

No it doesn't mean men or women Angela. The Bible is very clear that women are NOT to be pastors, bishops, deacons, or preachers. God's word, the King James Bible does not permit any woman to be a pastor or bishop or preacher.

Just in case you failed to read my post the first time (obviously!) I am going to print it again for you. I even used your inspired KJV, just for you! Because it does NOT say that only MEN can be pastors. It says that SOME, male or female are called to be shepherds.

Actually, the word "pastor" is not really found in the New Testament, in Greek. The only word that is found is "shepherd" which is τοὺς δὲ ποιμένας or tous de poimenas which means "and some shepherds."

"11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Eph. 4:11 KJV

There is no qualification by gender anywhere in the New Testament, even in the KJV. "Some" means those who are called by God. It means men or women.

Too many people mixing up bishop, elder, pastors, and misusing the English, which does not bring out the things the Greek brings out. Sigh!

Do I really have to re-post all the stuff about 1 Tim. 2:12 1 Cor. 14 and Eph. 5 again???

Ok, Eph. 5 is easy.

English:

"[SUP]21 [/SUP]submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord." Eph. 5:21-22 ESV

There is NOT a word "SUBMIT" in verse 22 in the Greek!

"[SUP]21 [/SUP]ὑποτασσόμενοι ἀλλήλοις ἐν φόβῳ Χριστοῦ.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Αἱ γυναῖκες τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀνδράσιν ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ," Eph. 5:21-22 Greek.

The word "submit" is ὑποτασσόμενοι or hupotassomenoi. Notice how this word is missing in the Greek. Look it up yourself if you do not believe me!

Men, please feel free to mutually submit to your wives, as verse 21 points out. As for the rest of the passage, Paul is addressing husbands! Yes, surprising as it may seem. He is telling men to love their wives, as Christ loved the church!



More later on the other disputed verses, and why woman not only can, but should be pastors.

You cannot keep 50% of the population in purdah and expect the gospel to be proclaimed. A prime example might be Lottie Moon, who was called to China, as a Southern Baptist in the 18 hundreds. She had to fight the entire organization and submit herself to men who literally almost destroyed the work in China.

She was only allowed to teach and preach to women, but the Chinese men would stand outside and listen. One man got saved, got called as an evangelist, and then led 10,000 more Chinese to Christ! Between Lottie Moon and Hudson Taylor, a revolution occurred which is still reaping results to this day, as Chinese Christians number in the millions, despite Mao throwing out all missionaries when he came to power.

The Spirit is willing for women to be partners in the gospel, but men are just too caught up in legalism to allow them to do it.

I thank God he called me and I am able to be a pastor to over 400 people in long term care, who would have no one if I wasn't there.

 

[posthuman]

So women are like the "B" team? God gave us brains "just in case" no man could figure out what he was supposed to do? I guess we're just supposed to pop out babies on the sidelines until y'all screw up, according to that logic.

i'm sure you've read that Adam was created first, and then Eve, and that "the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior." -- so that there is no reason to enter into that discussion and tempt you to contort and discredit the scripture, or to fall back to wordly wisdom to establish your worth. a woman's worth is not in question.

the point was that the men of the church ought to be ashamed rather than aghast. a child told the emperor his new clothes didn't exist - should the emperor's advisors have been incredulous that a child dared to speak to the emperor, or browbeaten because they themselves kept silent?

 

[Misty77]

i'm sure you've read that Adam was created first, and then Eve, and that "the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior." -- so that there is no reason to enter into that discussion and tempt you to contort and discredit the scripture, or to fall back to wordly wisdom to establish your worth. a woman's worth is not in question.

the point was that the men of the church ought to be ashamed rather than aghast. a child told the emperor his new clothes didn't exist - should the emperor's advisors have been incredulous that a child dared to speak to the emperor, or browbeaten because they themselves kept silent?

Yes, it is, when you say that women can be forgiven for rising to the occasion ONLY IF men have failed to do it. What about Esther? She was exalted for a righteous purpose. Deborah was a judge of her own right as there is no indication that she became a judge because there were no men available. She was simply the best candidate for the job. Mary with the alabaster box honored Christ in such a way that he said her act would be told wherever his gospel was told. The women in Philippi were so important to God that He used a dream to change Paul's itinerary where he came upon the women worshiping at the river. Amy Carmichael opened doors of ministry in India and rescued precious little girls from temple prostitution.

Both genders are image bearers of God. And God cares for his daughters just as much for His sons. We ALL have a purpose, and we are not plan B or consolation prizes. Our Father has put us where He wants us "for such a time as this," not "for such a time as the man that I originally called screws it all up."

 

[jag1977]

Actually God created man and woman in his image. That is an image of Oneness ...the Lord God created Adam and Eve, a separation of the sexes. To interpret God's word is to be complete with the spirit and having no right or wrong or righteousness or wickedness in that interpretation. A woman or a man interpreted by one in God is all the same just as in God any word can be without meaning. Therefore when one is God they are like "water"...a word comes in and is cleaved into any fleshy understanding that it becomes food kosher as nourishment always. All things become MEAT. As in genesis 1.

 

[LClark]

Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood by John Piper and Wayne Grudem



...more than 20 influential scholars such as John Piper, Wayne Grudem, and D. A. Carson [...Elisabeth Elliot, Dorothy Patterson...] have committed their talents to produce the most thorough response to date. Combining systematic argumentation with popular application, this volume deals with all of the main passages of Scripture brought forward in this controversy regarding gender-based role differences.

Free PDF download

 

[notuptome]

Yes, it is, when you say that women can be forgiven for rising to the occasion ONLY IF men have failed to do it. What about Esther? She was exalted for a righteous purpose. Deborah was a judge of her own right as there is no indication that she became a judge because there were no men available. She was simply the best candidate for the job. Mary with the alabaster box honored Christ in such a way that he said her act would be told wherever his gospel was told. The women in Philippi were so important to God that He used a dream to change Paul's itinerary where he came upon the women worshiping at the river. Amy Carmichael opened doors of ministry in India and rescued precious little girls from temple prostitution.

Both genders are image bearers of God. And God cares for his daughters just as much for His sons. We ALL have a purpose, and we are not plan B or consolation prizes. Our Father has put us where He wants us "for such a time as this," not "for such a time as the man that I originally called screws it all up."

No one in their right mind would say that women do not have a place in the local church ministry. Their place does not include the pulpit however. There are many ministries where only a woman can minister. Do not confuse these with the preaching ministry from the pulpit of a local church.

All Christians are called to be witnesses but only a few are gifts of God for the purpose of pastoring a local church. Eph 4:11

Calling women the image of God is questionable. The woman was fashioned as a help fit for the man. A woman has a place of honor in Gods eyes and a special role but not for preaching to the congregation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Misty77]

Calling women the image of God is questionable. The woman was fashioned as a help fit for the man. A woman has a place of honor in Gods eyes and a special role but not for preaching to the congregation.

Gen. 1:26-27
Let us make man[SUP][h][/SUP] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” [SUP]27 [/SUP]So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.



That last line is included to clarify that He was talking about man the species in this instance. A species includes both male and female members. The edicts for "man" in chapter one are for all mankind, not for the male gender or for the first man Adam (whose name is the word "man").

The Hebrew אָדָם is 'adam which can mean Adam, man, or mankind. You wouldn't take those verses to only apply to the individual Adam, so it is definitely for mankind the species.

 

[Misty77]

Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood by John Piper and Wayne Grudem



...more than 20 influential scholars such as John Piper, Wayne Grudem, and D. A. Carson [...Elisabeth Elliot, Dorothy Patterson...] have committed their talents to produce the most thorough response to date. Combining systematic argumentation with popular application, this volume deals with all of the main passages of Scripture brought forward in this controversy regarding gender-based role differences.

Free PDF download

Thanks, but I wouldn't read anything by John Piper. I explain why in the thread "Abuse and the Church"

 

[Angela53510]

Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood by John Piper and Wayne Grudem



...more than 20 influential scholars such as John Piper, Wayne Grudem, and D. A. Carson [...Elisabeth Elliot, Dorothy Patterson...] have committed their talents to produce the most thorough response to date. Combining systematic argumentation with popular application, this volume deals with all of the main passages of Scripture brought forward in this controversy regarding gender-based role differences.

Free PDF download

This book and organization is probably one of the most dangerous offenders when it comes to incorrectly dividing the Word of God, and causing untold damage in the church and families among fundamentalist and conservative Christians.

I actually downloaded a sample on my Kindle. I got to about the second or third page and one of the authors was gripping about women lifting weights, and how it made them "unfeminine". Really Biblical, I guess???!!

After I stopped laughing so hard and wiped up the tears, I reflected on the instructions of my doctors and physiotherapists on the importance of me lifting weights to keep my whiplash injury from going out of place and to keep my very damaged joints from Rheumatoid Arthritis in place with lifting weights, stretching and riding my bike, by strengthening and stretching the muscles to support the joints.

What a blanket condemnation of one of the best ways for women, especially injured women to recover and keep in shape.

No, I just couldn't bear to even finish the sample after that. I tried, I really wanted to be objective and give the "roles" side a fair chance to explain themselves.

If anyone wants to read the counter to Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, Stanley J. Grenz and Denise Muir Kjesbo in their book, Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry, go through the Biblical Manhood and Womanhood step by step and counter each argument. They are excellent theologians, who support the right of women to follow God's calling, including being pastors in church. Oh yes, they use the BIBLE to do this!

Sorry, I find it hard to include the word "Recovering" Sort of like addicts recovering or something??

 

[notuptome]

Gen. 1:26-27
Let us make man[SUP][h][/SUP] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” [SUP]27 [/SUP]So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.



That last line is included to clarify that He was talking about man the species in this instance. A species includes both male and female members. The edicts for "man" in chapter one are for all mankind, not for the male gender or for the first man Adam (whose name is the word "man").

The Hebrew אָדָם is 'adam which can mean Adam, man, or mankind. You wouldn't take those verses to only apply to the individual Adam, so it is definitely for mankind the species.

Adam was formed from the dust of the earth. Eve was made from Adams rib. Adam was the pattern established by God. Certainly Eve followed the pattern to a degree. There can be no argument that God made the man and the woman exactly the way He wanted to. They are not exact copies of one another.

Still cannot find a way to support women as pastors of a local church. Equal in Christ by Gods grace relative to sin and atonement. Still created very differently with purpose in the Divine Mind. Don't let the telling and re-telling of Gen 1 and 3 create confusion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[posthuman]

Yes, it is, when you say that women can be forgiven for rising to the occasion ONLY IF men have failed to do it. What about Esther? She was exalted for a righteous purpose. Deborah was a judge of her own right as there is no indication that she became a judge because there were no men available. She was simply the best candidate for the job. Mary with the alabaster box honored Christ in such a way that he said her act would be told wherever his gospel was told. The women in Philippi were so important to God that He used a dream to change Paul's itinerary where he came upon the women worshiping at the river. Amy Carmichael opened doors of ministry in India and rescued precious little girls from temple prostitution.

Both genders are image bearers of God. And God cares for his daughters just as much for His sons. We ALL have a purpose, and we are not plan B or consolation prizes. Our Father has put us where He wants us "for such a time as this," not "for such a time as the man that I originally called screws it all up."

that's fine; do whatever you want with Ephesians 5:23 and completely ignore Paul's letter to Timothy.

i posted to the shame of people who would be inconsolably offended at the thought of a woman preaching. that's all.

if you want to make occasion of it to glorify women, that's your business, and Deborah, Esther, Abigail, Elisabeth, Hannah, Huldah, Ruth, Priscilla, Phoebe, Mary, Puah and many others are fine biblical instances of women used to God's purpose in faith and righteousness. I've mentioned more than you in case you weren't aware of the great number of them in the scripture.

all i'm saying is that the one giving the feast invited all the nobility of the city and they all made excuses, so the servant was sent out again to fill up the banquet hall with the beggars and the lame.

i'm sorry my post is used as an occasion to boast of chromosomes. the thread brought to mind a quote from some famous preacher (Harry Ironsides maybe? i've had trouble finding the exact saying referenced) & i thought someone might be edified by putting it here. i guess i should have thought "someone will think of gender first and not the point of the quote, and be offended"