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azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

Banned
#421
Apr 3, 2019
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#421
iamsoandso said:
In FP(the OP) everything in Revelation is seen as fulfilled prior to ad70 with maybe the exception of the white throne judgment. That's why it's important to them to defend the writing of Revelation and show it written prior to ad70. So anything and everything in Revelation has to be fulfilled prior to ad70 for FP to be correct, Rev. 13,,,AoD,,mark,,, everything.
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The problem I see with your "stance" is that you are attempting to relate the "buy or sell" passages with the zealots minting of coins etc. John may not have had them in mind.

You need to establish that John is speaking to the "minting" issue and not some other issue rather than assuming,
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#422
Oct 6, 2011
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#422
azamzimtoti said:
The problem I see with your "stance" is that you are attempting to relate the "buy or sell" passages with the zealots minting of coins etc. John may not have had them in mind.

You need to establish that John is speaking to the "minting" issue and not some other issue rather than assuming,
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John in Rev.13b is relating that those who don't receive the mark,number of his name ect. cannot buy or sell unless they receive the beast mark. Now if this is Nero,Rome,Caesar then the Jews would then need to continue buying and selling with Romes coins(money)to fulfill Rev.13:17,, but they did not instead they began minting their own coins and stop using Romes. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+13:17&version=KJV
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

Banned
#423
Apr 3, 2019
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#423
iamsoandso said:
John in Rev.13b is relating that those who don't receive the mark,number of his name ect. cannot buy or sell unless they receive the beast mark. Now if this is Nero,Rome,Caesar then the Jews would then need to continue buying and selling with Romes coins(money)to fulfill Rev.13:17,, but they did not instead they began minting their own coins and stop using Romes. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+13:17&version=KJV
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You've just established that these events occurred in the 1st century. They avoided the mark, but being trapped in the city still ended up suffering the wrath of God for "shedding innocent blood".
 
G

garee

Banned
#424
Mar 28, 2016
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#424
iamsoandso said:
John in Rev.13b is relating that those who don't receive the mark,number of his name ect. cannot buy or sell unless they receive the beast mark. Now if this is Nero,Rome,Caesar then the Jews would then need to continue buying and selling with Romes coins(money)to fulfill Rev.13:17,, but they did not instead they began minting their own coins and stop using Romes. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+13:17&version=KJV
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The mark is the mark of man .His number is 666 created on the sixth day as a beast of the field .One beast named Cain murdered his brother called Abel sealed in the forehead (thought process) with the mark of the gospel the first recorded martyr . God changed the decay rate to make the work a living hell. longer hours harder labor. Cain said the suffering was more than he could bear. That which Christ bore for us Christ our rest and feared that men would carry out the death sentence. The Holy Spirit in respect to the mark of those who sell spiritual truth and sell it seeing no value in buying .The Holy Spirit replied . "Mark" my word if I desire he suffer without the aid of God's people and it was so .. The mark of the beast
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#425
Oct 6, 2011
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#425
azamzimtoti said:
You've just established that these events occurred in the 1st century. They avoided the mark, but being trapped in the city still ended up suffering the wrath of God for "shedding innocent blood".
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lol, Are you sure? Back up to post #411 and explain how the Apostles could suggest to the Christians then living to see Rome as ordained by God and that they should pay dues to Rome with money that you cant buy and sell with without the mark,number or name.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#426
Oct 6, 2011
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#426
garee said:
The mark is the mark of man .His number is 666 created on the sixth day as a beast of the field .One beast named Cain murdered his brother called Abel sealed in the forehead (thought process) with the mark of the gospel the first recorded martyr . God changed the decay rate to make the work a living hell. longer hours harder labor. Cain said the suffering was more than he could bear. That which Christ bore for us Christ our rest and feared that men would carry out the death sentence. The Holy Spirit in respect to the mark of those who sell spiritual truth and sell it seeing no value in buying .The Holy Spirit replied . "Mark" my word if I desire he suffer without the aid of God's people and it was so .. The mark of the beast
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Your going to have to convince that to the beast that Revelation 13:15 say's "kills" because the Scripture shows he literally kills them unless they worship the image.
 
G

garee

Banned
#427
Mar 28, 2016
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#427
iamsoandso said:
Your going to have to convince that to the beast that Revelation 13:15 say's "kills" because the Scripture shows he literally kills them unless they worship the image.
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Because they worship the father of lies the god of this world it proves he has killed them .Working out the death sentence as the wrath of God revealed from heaven .
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#428
Oct 6, 2011
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#428
garee said:
Because they worship the father of lies the god of this world it proves he has killed them .Working out the death sentence as the wrath of God revealed from heaven .
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https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+13:15&version=KJV There's only two groups, one who don't get killed and the other who does. The one group don't get killed because they do worship the image(no faith) the other gets killed because they don't worship the image(has faith). The group that has faith and don't worship the image are killed by the beast.
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

Banned
#429
Apr 3, 2019
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#429
iamsoandso said:
lol, Are you sure? Back up to post #411 and explain how the Apostles could suggest to the Christians then living to see Rome as ordained by God and that they should pay dues to Rome with money that you cant buy and sell with without the mark,number or name.
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I think you are mixing and matching scriptures, even though Paul stated to give "tribute" this does not equate to taking "the mark." Even Christ paid the temple tax.

And in regards to the "mark/buy or sell" passages in John I think you are trying to squeeze details from it that John does not give while ignoring "shortly come to pass" and "the kairos is at hand".
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

Banned
#430
Apr 3, 2019
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#430
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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#432
Aug 3, 2018
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#432
azamzimtoti said:
while ignoring "shortly come to pass" and "the kairos is at hand".
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I looked up the phrase "shortly come to pass" ^... and that is found in Rev1:1. I already addressed this point, that the word is not "shortly [ADVERB]" but the NOUN "in quickness" (and is in reference [solely] to the "future" aspects of the book, the things which are to take place "AFTER THESE" [i.e. 4:1/1:19c], and related to the "WILL SHEW/TO SHEW" things). It has not been "ignored," but already covered (in this thread).

Were you referring to a different verse, using this phrase?
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#434
Mar 12, 2015
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#434
azamzimtoti said:
This is a screen shot from N.T. Wrights book "Revelation for Everyone"



Link to the book
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Boy, they really massacred the meaning of the coming mark!

The coming mark will be that proverbial line being drawn in the sand dividing the faithful from the unfaithful, so that no one in the entire world will be able to buy or sell unless they have the mark. Since from the middle of the seven years to the end, that mark will become the only valid means of electronic crediting and debiting, i.e. the only way to buy or sell. Those who keep the testimony of Jesus and resist worshiping the beast, his image and receiving his mark, will be persecuted and put to death. And by doing so, will get the victory over the beast. In opposition, those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark will suffer the fate of Rev.14:9-11.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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#436
Oct 6, 2011
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#436
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

Banned
#437
Apr 3, 2019
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768
113
#437
TheDivineWatermark said:
I looked up the phrase "shortly come to pass" ^... and that is found in Rev1:1. I already addressed this point, that the word is not "shortly [ADVERB]" but the NOUN "in quickness" (and is in reference [solely] to the "future" aspects of the book, the things which are to take place "AFTER THESE" [i.e. 4:1/1:19c], and related to the "WILL SHEW/TO SHEW" things). It has not been "ignored," but already covered (in this thread).

Were you referring to a different verse, using this phrase?
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You'll find the majority of versions use soon or shortly and because verse 1 is directly related to verse 3 "the time is near" or "at hand".


Strongs

G5034 tachos takh'-os

from the same as G5036;

a brief space (of time), i.e. (with G1722 prefixed) in haste.

KJV: quickly, shortly, speedily.
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

Banned
#438
Apr 3, 2019
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#438
iamsoandso said:
lol, in the link to the book you gave in post #431 mr. Write does make that comment but if you read the chapters before and after it he never gives or refers to any proof for his comment.
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I guess he's just making stuff up.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#439
Aug 3, 2018
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#439
azamzimtoti said:
You'll find the majority of versions use soon or shortly and because verse 1 is directly related to verse 3 "the time is near" or "at hand".
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...and I've stated before, that the phrase "the time is at hand" pertains to (is connected to):

--"the words of this prophecy"
--"[keep/guard] the things which are written therein"
--"[seal not] the sayings of the prophecy of this book"


...which involves ALL of 1:19a/b/c... not just the "c" part (which "c" part [only] pertains to the "future" aspects of the book, which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN], not "soon, quickly, or immediately [adverbs]"... and only "AFTER THESE" [that is, only after "a" and "b" have transpired first (i.e. unfolded in real time :D )])
 
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