Do you want the truth? Here is the truth about eschatology

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Eli12

Active member
Jul 3, 2019
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#81
Luke 24 -

"37 But having been terrified, and having been filled with fear, they were thinking themselves to see a spirit.

38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts come up in your hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that I am He. Touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see Me having.” 40 And having said this, He showed to them the hands and the feet.

41 And while they still were disbelieving for joy and were wondering, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 And they gave to Him part of a broiled fish.b 43 And having taken it, He ate it before them."


Note, He doesn't say, "as ye see me appear to have" ;)
I understand what you say, but have you consider all the stories about angels eating food with humans in the old times? Do angels have body of flesh too because of that?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
8,695
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#82
...(not "spirit of His glory" lol)


This ^ was to be added to what I'd put here:

[Phil3:21 - "who will transform our body of humiliation, conformed to the body of His glory, according to the working enabling Him even to subdue all things to Himself."]
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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#83
The scriptures are clear....he was touched, handled, ate fish, walked with his disciples and told Mary to not touch him....a body that is spiritual ONLY cannot do the above....he was raised in a resurrected body that was tangible......
Yes, His physical body was raised. It was a sign. Just like all His miraculous healings were signs pointing to His divinity. That is not the nature of the resurrection though. That is not how those in Hades were raised in 70 AD. They became like the angels. Living spirits. I don't know what their bodies are like. I don't know what that existence is like because I have never experienced it.
 

Eli12

Active member
Jul 3, 2019
144
70
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#84
...(not "spirit of His glory" lol)
Well, Bible talk about spiritual bodies too. Being spirit does not mean he has not a body.

1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body; 45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit

If there are spiritual bodies, like angels, what's the problem if there is spiritual resurrection?
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
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#85
37 But having been terrified, and having been filled with fear, they were thinking themselves to see a spirit.
38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts come up in your hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that I am He. Touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see Me having.” 40 And having said this, He showed to them the hands and the feet.
Jesus says multiple times His physical resurrection, just like His physical miracles, were signs pointing to His divinity. It is not the nature of your resurrection. What is our spiritual body in heaven like? I don't know. I can't answer that. It has nothing to do with flesh or a "rapture" or a transformation of anything physical and never will. But I know you don't believe that.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
8,695
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#86
Jesus says multiple times His physical resurrection, just like His physical miracles, were signs pointing to His divinity. It is not the nature of your resurrection. What is our spiritual body in heaven like? I don't know. I can't answer that. It has nothing to do with flesh or a "rapture" or a transformation of anything physical and never will. But I know you don't believe that.
Well, this is the very subject that I believe 2Cor5:2-4 is covering, where "unclothed" means to be "apart from a body upon death [for the believer] for a time [that is, until the 'resurrection']," and "clothed upon" means to be "immediately changed into our 'immortal' bodies APART from having to DIE first" (as in the other/former)… "[in order] THAT mortality [applying ONLY to "still-living [i.e. mortal] persons" at the specific point in time that Paul is referring to] might be SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE".

"Clothed upon [G1902 - ependuomai / ependysasthai]" means "to have on over" with usages being: "I have on over (as a garment); mid: I put on myself in addition" (again, this particular phrase refers to the "still-living/mortals" at the point in time Paul is referring to). Elsewhere referred to as "we ["the Church which is His body" context] shall all be changed"... and "THIS mortal must put on [G1746] immortality [G110 - athanasian ]"
 
Jun 10, 2019
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#87
I understand what you say, but have you consider all the stories about angels eating food with humans in the old times? Do angels have body of flesh too because of that?
Huh, I haven’t til now, I found a couple one in genesis 18, though doesn’t quite say the three men that appeared was angels, and another in exodus but angels isn’t mentioned in those. In psalm 78 it appears there’s angel food, grain from heaven and not earth, could a human sit and eat earth grain while a angel eats heaven grain I don’t see why not.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
8,695
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#88
EDIT (to add to my post): (the other aspect re: the DEAD in Christ: "THIS corruptible must put on incorruption")
 

Eli12

Active member
Jul 3, 2019
144
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#89
Huh, I haven’t til now, I found a couple one in genesis 18, though doesn’t quite say the three men that appeared was angels, and another in exodus but angels isn’t mentioned in those. In psalm 78 it appears there’s angel food, grain from heaven and not earth, could a human sit and eat earth grain while a angel eats heaven grain I don’t see why not.
Gen 19:1 (ESV) The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth
2 and said, "My lords, please turn aside to your servant's house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way." They said, "No; we will spend the night in the town square."
3 But he pressed them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

Those are the same two angels who were at Abraham's place and ate with him. They ate with Lot too.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
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#90
I presented dozens of verses in the original post of this thread which no one has bothered to try and answer in a comprehensive way. Someone tried to pick and choose a few and tried to get around them. No one has built a comprehensive argument from Scripture saying to me that those verses don't mean what I claim and that I have misunderstood them. If someone has such an argument I am willing to listen.
I have no problems with the scriptures you quoted and i have no problem believing that they talk about the imminence of the end times; a belief that i also hold, but connecting all that and dumping it in 70AD just because there was war and the temple was brought down can not be the correct understanding.

My understanding is that end times were imminent as at the time writing of those verses but end times is such a long period of time; thousands of years of which we are deep into.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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#91
You are making 2 Peter 3:10-13 a literal and physical fire that consumes the entire universe. It is not. It is apocalyptic language for the destruction of Jerusalem, which was burned to the ground along with its temple. Same type of poetic language the prophets use throughout the Bible.
Peter is comparing the passing away of the 1st world through flood and is saying the current world is also reserved for fire. Not sure if the fire would be physical but the main thing is that the flood was global (not in Jerusalem only) and so the fire reserved for the ungodly today, whether physical or not, shall be global (means every ungodly men will be affected), not just the ungodly in Jerusalem.

But you are mainly wrong about the 70AD events because it is the ungodly men (Romans) that dished the punishment to Godly men in Jerusalem. The disciples of Jesus were also affected.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#92
Well, I agree with delirius about the spiritual resurrection of Jesus. I guess you're not including me in that "we".

If Jesus had a spiritual body before he was a human, what's the problem if he took it back on his resurrection? Does not say the Bible that Jesus was made inferior to the angels when became a man? He can not be inferior to the angels in heaven too; that's impossible.

Joh 17:5 (YLT) `And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;

Heb 2:9 (YLT) and him who was made some little less than messengers we see--Jesus--because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.
Let us make man in our image...chew on that and follow delirium if you so choose....
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,781
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#93
So you accused me that I misrepresented everything and will be held strictly accountable but you didn't even make an effort to address what those verses say. Dozens of them by Jesus, Peter, James, John and Paul all saying the same thing. You don't understand the kingdom and that is why you don't understand eschatology. Either way, I'm not offended. I encounter tons of Christians exactly like you. You simply don't understand and you don't like what these verses say.
I have to agree with mr. nehemiah6 here. He did answer your question with his general statement of if your position is true or has already taken place why are we still living in this "upholstered" cesspool" we call earth?

Now, you quoted in your op 1 John 2:18 but it's obvious you did not read the preceeding verses, verses 16-18, "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes and the BOSASTFUL pride of lief is not from the Father, but is from the world. vs17, "And the world is passing away, and its lust; but one who does the will of God abides forever."

The point is the fact that the Apostle John just gave three examples of ATTITUDES that come out of the sphere of the world. First, illicit cravings, greedy cravings and the pride of life. I purposefully capitalized the word boastful because the term for pride that John uses is a very strong one. It carries the idea of boastful pretensions and BRAGGING beyond the limits of reality. As a side note, I'm being a littl political here because is this not what most if not all these Democratic hopefuls are doing? Coming up with promises that are not in the sphere of reality? I know I'm digressing but it's something I noticed when reading the text.

So now for the real point as it relates to vs17. We are not to love the world because this present world is temporary. In fact, the present tense of "passing away" shows that the world system had already begun the process of decay that would eventually lead to its "DISAPPEARANCE." The middle voice of the verb suggests that the world carries within it the seeds of its own destruction.

Have you seen any of these "lust" disappearing delirious? Of course not, if anything it's getting worse and worse. In contrast, the person who follows the will of God is aligned with something eternal. The way I see your position is sort of in line with what the Apostle Paul told Timothy at 2 Timothy 2:15-18, "Be diligent to present yourselves approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handiing ACCURATELY the wordl of truth. vs16, But avoid worldy and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness. vs17, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, (What did they say?) vs18, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus THEY UPSET THE FAITH OF SOME."

Finally, I don't have a "doctorate" in Theology or in the Greek or Hebrew language either? Please tell me how your going to "reconcile" your view with my opposing view? You closed with this statement: "
Jesus said not one jot or tittle could pass until everything was accomplished. This happened with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the end of old covenant Israel. We have been living in the new heavens and earth (not a physical place) for 2,000 years. God bless you.

Are you serious? So were living (not physically) in the new heavens and earth why are we all still sinning? Or is it only in our imangination? Ugh! :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Jul 4, 2019
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#94
Please read these verses and tell me what they all have in common:

Matt 10:23, Matt 16:27-28, Matt 24:34, Mark 8:38-9:1, Mark 13:30, Luke 9:26-27, Luke 21:31-32, 1 Peter 4:7, James 5:8, 1 John 2:18, Rev 1:1, Rev 1:3, Rev 22:6, Rev 22:7, Rev 22:10, Rev 22:12, Rev 22:20.

Then we have these verses that use the Greek word "mello" (G3195 Strong's Concordance) in the present infinitive which always implies IMMINENCE. The word is often translated "will" in English because of the translators false presuppositions. It should be translated in English "about to". The verses are:

Rev 1:19, Acts 17:31, Acts 24:15, 2 Timothy 4:1, 1 Peter 5:1, James 2:12, Heb 10:27, Acts 28:6

Then you have Daniel. He is given a 70 weeks prophecy for his people and his city (Dan 9:24). Daniel Chapters 10-12 give details about that 70 weeks. At the end of that 70 weeks in Daniel 12 we find this:

Daniel 12:4, "seal up the book until the time of the end" Revelation 22:10 says, "Don't seal for the time is at hand"

Daniel 12:7, "when the power of the holy people is completely shattered all will be fulfilled" This occurred with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

Daniel 12:13, Daniel is told he will rise to his inheritance at the end of the days (see also Matt 25:34). Jesus said all who believed in Him He would raise on the last day (John 6:39,40,44,54) This was the last day of old covenant Israel in 70 AD and is what Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy is about. His people and their city.

And finally...Matt 5:17-18. Make sure you read that with Luke 21:22. Jesus came to fulfill everything written in the Law and Prophets. When all was fulfilled it would pass away. The book of Hebrews, written in the 60's AD, says the law was "ready to pass away" (Heb 8:13).

Jesus said not one jot or tittle could pass until everything was accomplished. This happened with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the end of old covenant Israel. We have been living in the new heavens and earth (not a physical place) for 2,000 years. God bless you.

The Bible have been so mis-interpreted for a long time and most of it is not our fault because it was God’s plan that we would be blinded from the truth for a period of time. Praise God that at his appointed time he will reveal the mysteries of his word unto us all so that there will be no doubts about his plans and purpose.

We are at the time of the end for sure and some of us are beginning to receive revelation of the truth. Because the kingdom of God is like unto leaven, those who are getting the truth will release it until all the true children of God receive the truth because it will become clear to all of us.

God bless
 
Jun 10, 2019
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#95
Gen 19:1 (ESV) The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth
2 and said, "My lords, please turn aside to your servant's house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way." They said, "No; we will spend the night in the town square."
3 But he pressed them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

Those are the same two angels who were at Abraham's place and ate with him. They ate with Lot too.
I agree they did, but I think at the dinner after the resurrection Tomas stuck his finger in the body from the cross. Not quite like when angels visited lot that was a different time and for others reasons
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#96
No, I didn't say that. Jesus came in the flesh and died in the flesh. The resurrection body is spiritual. It has nothing to do with flesh. He's not walking around in heaven with nail prints in His hands but if you want to believe that go ahead.
Are you stating that Jesus was only a spirit when we was among his disciples?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#97
Peter is comparing the passing away of the 1st world through flood and is saying the current world is also reserved for fire. Not sure if the fire would be physical but the main thing is that the flood was global (not in Jerusalem only) and so the fire reserved for the ungodly today, whether physical or not, shall be global (means every ungodly men will be affected), not just the ungodly in Jerusalem.

But you are mainly wrong about the 70AD events because it is the ungodly men (Romans) that dished the punishment to Godly men in Jerusalem. The disciples of Jesus were also affected.

Noose, not sure who you mean by Godly men, but in 70AD, the believers escaped as they heeded Christ's warning when they saw the signs to flea to the mountains.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
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#99
Noose, not sure who you mean by Godly men, but in 70AD, the believers escaped as they heeded Christ's warning when they saw the signs to flea to the mountains.
The scriptural mention of 'fleeing to the mountains to escape the armies that surround Jerusalem' has a spiritual meaning and is not something that actually happened or will happen physically.
These are just stories that people have peddled based on their misunderstanding of those particular verses.

There's no point around Jerusalem, where fleeing men/women/children could access that Roman soldiers could not.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
The scriptural mention of 'fleeing to the mountains to escape the armies that surround Jerusalem' has a spiritual meaning and is not something that actually happened or will happen physically.
These are just stories that people have peddled based on their misunderstanding of those particular verses.

There's no point around Jerusalem, where fleeing men/women/children could access that Roman soldiers could not.
I do think it happened in real time in reality....this is why Jesus told them the signs.

According to the historical accounts they fled before Jerusalem was surrounded.
I would have to find the reference though.