Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Sep 21, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
The cause is obvious. Pharaoh hardened HIS OWN HEART. Very clear.

What you are suggesting or claiming is that God causes sin. That is totally unbiblical.

Well then, let's take a look.


OK, v.17 is a direct quote from Ex 9:16. iow, God knew what Pharoah would do, and placed him when and where He did. Acts 16:26,27.

Re: v.18 just read Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

This verse really blows the wind out of Calvinists' thinking and theology. Just notice the order in the verse. Tells you everything.

v.21 doesn't say, as Calvinists presume, that God causes people to do things.
v.22 the word "fitted" in the Greek is 'katartizo', which means to adjust to fit, mend, repair, etc. iow, NO ONE is created for destruction, another presumption of some Calvinists.


I haven't.


Of course not. But it is clear from your flawed theology that you are.


This is pathetic. I've just refuted all your points.
I will say this you are correct God is NOT the author of sin, but due to the hardness of men's hearts, He shall and does hardened them further, to show forth His Glory against them.

Also I am not a Calvinist, I know of him and heard of him, but I've NEVER read anything by the man. The Holy Spirit is my teacher, and HE never lies. I am a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ chosen and predestined by Him to serve Him and to live by His Word through the Power of the Holy Spirit who has written God's words and precepts upon the tablets of my heart.

Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal_4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
 
Sep 21, 2021
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You gave one of my greatest supporting passages in your own post.




Adam had free will to chose to sin. and because of it he died.

We have free will to chose to react to Gods message through his written word. The word of His children and the word of Nature (romans 1)
Actually you are correct Adam was the only one who had free will at that time because he was NOT a sinner, but after his disobedience, sin and death came in, so no human has any Godly free will left. It was totally eradicated by the death of sin.
We have no free will, we are DEAD, therefore we do NOT seek out God, but God seeks out those whom He desire to know HIM.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Actually you are correct Adam was the only one who had free will at that time because he was NOT a sinner, but after his disobedience, sin and death came in, so no human has any Godly free will left. It was totally eradicated by the death of sin.
We have no free will, we are DEAD, therefore we do NOT seek out God, but God seeks out those whom He desire to know HIM.
If we do not have free will

Then God is not a god of love and we are incapable of having any type of relationship with God at all

We also can not obey the gospel.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
1,985
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FreeGrace2 said:
To be clear, James 2:19 isn't about demons believing that God exists. Of course they do. He created them and they lived in heaven until the rebelled and joined Satan's rebellion.

2:19 is about monotheism, which was uniquely a Jewish belief; that God is One. But, the demons didn't take that on faith, but rather because they experienced it.

It's a real shame that so many pastors and Bible teaches use James 2:19 to make unbiblical comments about the "faith of demons" that doesn't save. Not even in the ballpark.

Jesus told his audience to believe in His miracles. John 10-
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Do you think the "works of My father" means being nice to others, keeping the law, etc, or the miracles that only God can do?


Probably a lot of things. Regardless of the underlying cause of unfaithfulness, the issue is the unfaithfulness, not the cause of it.
I believe Jesus is speaking to the miracles that only God can do but not limiting that from the sense as being God and so displaying His character. We fall short in that sense in following Jesus' example but we reflect Christ in us such as 1John2:15, "...If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him," and we overcome the world being persuaded that Jesus is the Son of God and whoever believes that He is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves those born of Him (1John5:1), since these are the objective of His commandments.
 
Sep 21, 2021
90
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If we do not have free will

Then God is not a god of love and we are incapable of having any type of relationship with God at all

We also can not obey the gospel.
Yes, God is a God of Love, only those who are self-righteous because "They" willed themselves into His Kingdom, with their own "works" of believing will state "God is not a God of Love".

Yes, I agree with you we can NOT obey the Gospel in our own dead and sinful life.
Once we are truly Born-again from above by and through the Working Power of the Holy Spirit, which has come to convict the world of sin. We can through the Power of the Holy Spirit are able to obey the Gospel and live a Godly life, by the working of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts, souls and minds, it's called sanctification.
IF the Lord is the Author of our Salvation, He is also the finisher of our salvation. That which He has begun He has promised to get His true Children to the finish line.
We can do NOTHING through the power of our human flesh, it is dead, but through the Power of the Holy Spirit, and only through Him are we able to live a life pleasing unto the Lord. We grow from grace to grace, and it's according to each individual believer's walk with the Lord according to His Perfect Will and His purpose for our lives.
Once we know HIM, we are dead but ALIVE unto Him and our lives are placed upon the Altar as Abraham placed Isaac, upon the Altar, because Isaac was the promise fulfilled to Abraham once he was unable to naturally give seed to Sarah, who was barren. So once we are granted the promise of eternal life, by the Faith of Christ given us to believe, then we place our lives on the Altar to allow God to do with us as He will according to His Will and purpose.
And that PROVES the Love of God towards His Children......as long as we have not crashed the wedding dinner;

Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


The Lord bless you.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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God strengthened (hardened) Phoaroahs own will. But slowly making him have to chose to reject the truth of what he was seeing. The more he ignored what he KNEW to be true the easier it would become.
What "slowly"? There was no "slowly" about it- they were hardened, period. Where in that verse do you find support for your conclusion? In Greek It is "hardened" NOT "strengthened". I posted its definition yesterday. Did you miss it? I can repost. Here:

[Jhn 12:40 KJV] 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

pōroō (Key)
Pronunciation
po-ro'-o

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
Apparently from poros (a kind of stone)
Greek Inflections of πωρόω [?]
mGNT
5x in 5 unique form(s) TR
5x in 5 unique form(s) LXX
1x in 1 unique form(s)
ἐπωρώθη — 1x
ἐπωρώθησαν — 1x
πεπώρωκεν — 1x
πεπωρωμένη — 1x
πεπωρωμένην — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 5:1025,816
KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G4456 in the following manner: harden (3x), blind (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to cover with a thick skin, to harden by covering with a callus
  2. metaph.
    1. to make the heart dull
    2. to grow hard, callous, become dull, lose the power of understanding
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
πωρόω pōróō, po-ro'-o; apparently from πῶρος pōros (a kind of stone); to petrify, i.e. (figuratively) to indurate (render stupid or callous):—blind, harden.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 4456: πωρόω
πωρόω, πώρω: 1 aorist ἐπωρωσα (John 12:40 T Tr WH); perfect πεπώρωκα; perfect passive participle πεπωρωμενος; 1 aorist passive ἐπωρωθην; (πῶρος, hard skin, a hardening, induration); to cover with a thick skin, to harden by covering with a callus (R. V. everywhere simply to harden): metaphorically, καρδίαν, to make the heart dull, John 12:40; passive, to grow hard or callous, become dull, lose the power of understanding: Romans 11:7; τά νοήματα, 2 Corinthians 3:14; ἡ καρδία, Mark 6:52; Mark 8:17. Cf. Fritzsche, Commentary on Mark, p. 78f; on Romans, ii., p. 451f. ((Hippocrates (), Aristotle, others.))
THAYER’S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com
BLB Scripture Index of Thayer's
Mark6:52; 8:17John12:40; 12:40Romans11:72 Corinthians3:14
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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I will say this you are correct God is NOT the author of sin, but due to the hardness of men's hearts, He shall and does hardened them further, to show forth His Glory against them.
Yeah, Pharoah hardened his heart first. God gave him chance after chance to obey him, but he would not. After each plague Pharoah continued to hardened his heart even further until God completely hardened it.

But how many chances did God give him to obey? I think the same applies today...God gives us all a chance and sometimes chance after chance but it is up to man to choose to accept, believe, and obey or not. The Holy Spirit is not obligated to deal with sinners forever...God will not strive with men forever....

How did the reprobate become a reprobate? In Romans 1 you will notice there is a reason that he gave some over to a reprobated mind.

Romans 1

28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
1,018
173
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We have free will to chose to react to Gods message through his written word. The word of His children and the word of Nature (romans 1)
Not after Adam and Eve

[Rom 7:14 KJV] 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

How do you have free will being sold UNDER sin; that is, in being a slave of sin?
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,696
1,894
113
Not after Adam and Eve

[Rom 7:14 KJV] 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

How do you have free will being sold UNDER sin; that is, in being a slave of sin
Ever heard of Jesus Christ..He died to set us free from the law of sin and death.
 
Mar 23, 2016
5,366
1,435
113
Yeah, Pharoah hardened his heart first. God gave him chance after chance to obey him, but he would not. After each plague Pharoah continued to hardened his heart even further until God completely hardened it.

But how many chances did God give him to obey? I think the same applies today...God gives us all a chance and sometimes chance after chance but it is up to man to choose to accept, believe, and obey or not. The Holy Spirit is not obligated to deal with sinners forever...God will not strive with men forever....

How did the reprobate become a reprobate? In Romans 1 you will notice there is a reason that he gave some over to a reprobated mind.

Romans 1

28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Romans 1 reveals the downward spiral to a reprobate mind.
Here is some information I posted concerning the "downward spiral" back in Post #132:

Read Romans 1:18 - 32
This section of Scripture tells us exactly what occurs in those who do not believe. It's not that they can't believe. It's that the unbeliever rejects the truth of God's Word when it is shared with them and the believer does not reject the truth when someone shares God's Word with them.
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:18-19 tells us that the truth is suppressed when God makes it plain to them. The word "hold" in vs 18 is the Greek word katechō and it means to suppress; hold back; restrain. When the Word of God is spoken, it is restrained from reaching the heart of the unbeliever. They reject the truth. They reject God.
Because they suppress the truth, they do not glorify God, their thinking becomes empty and foolish and, as a result, their foolish hearts become darkened — Rom 1:20-21.
Because the heart is darkened, they profess themselves as wise but in reality they become fools and turn to idolatry — Rom 1:22-23.
Because of this, God gives them over to uncleanness — Rom 1:24.
Because they are given over to uncleanness, they degrade their own bodies and exchange the truth of God into a lie. They worship creation more than the Creator — Rom 1:25.
Because of this, God gives them over to vile affections — Rom 1:26.
Because they are given over to vile affections, they commit shameful acts and receive in themselves the adequate penalty for their error — Rom 1:27.
Because they do not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gives them over to a reprobate mind — Rom 1:28.
Because they have a reprobate mind, they exhibit all of the behaviors shown in Rom 1:29-32.
Look at how long God holds on to a person before he or she is given over to a reprobate mind. First it's suppress the truth; then the foolish heart becomes darkened; then given up to uncleanness; then given up to vile affections; then reprobate mind. Each time the person is given up to the next downward step, it is because he or she has rejected God.
These are the steps that are taken over the course of many years. God holds on as long as He can, but at some point, as they move further and further away from Him, God has to let them go.
It's not like they are born with a reprobate mind to begin with ... or that they suppress the truth in unrighteousness one moment and the next moment they have a reprobate mind. There are more than several steps involved in the downward spiral to reprobate mind. And in the Greek the word reprobate means not standing the test; not approved.
And at any point, a person can allow the truth of God's Word to penetrate their heart and God will start working to bring increase to that little kernel of truth they do not restrain (faith by hearing and hearing by word of God – Rom 10:17). God brings the increase in the heart of those who do not reject Him.
That is why it is so important for us as believers (and to whom God has entrusted the ministry of reconciliation - 2 Col 5:18-20) to speak the truth of God's Word to others ... not man's wisdom.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Yeah, Pharoah hardened his heart first. God gave him chance after chance to obey him, but he would not. After each plague Pharoah continued to hardened his heart even further until God completely hardened it.
Don't think that is what the Bible informs us of:

[Exo 10:20 KJV]
20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

God used Pharaoh as a demonstration of His power

[Rom 9:17 KJV]
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,696
1,894
113
Romans 1 reveals the downward spiral to a reprobate mind.
Here is some information I posted concerning the "downward spiral" back in Post #132:

Read Romans 1:18 - 32
This section of Scripture tells us exactly what occurs in those who do not believe. It's not that they can't believe. It's that the unbeliever rejects the truth of God's Word when it is shared with them and the believer does not reject the truth when someone shares God's Word with them.
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:18-19 tells us that the truth is suppressed when God makes it plain to them. The word "hold" in vs 18 is the Greek word katechō and it means to suppress; hold back; restrain. When the Word of God is spoken, it is restrained from reaching the heart of the unbeliever. They reject the truth. They reject God.
Because they suppress the truth, they do not glorify God, their thinking becomes empty and foolish and, as a result, their foolish hearts become darkened — Rom 1:20-21.
Because the heart is darkened, they profess themselves as wise but in reality they become fools and turn to idolatry — Rom 1:22-23.
Because of this, God gives them over to uncleanness — Rom 1:24.
Because they are given over to uncleanness, they degrade their own bodies and exchange the truth of God into a lie. They worship creation more than the Creator — Rom 1:25.
Because of this, God gives them over to vile affections — Rom 1:26.
Because they are given over to vile affections, they commit shameful acts and receive in themselves the adequate penalty for their error — Rom 1:27.
Because they do not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gives them over to a reprobate mind — Rom 1:28.
Because they have a reprobate mind, they exhibit all of the behaviors shown in Rom 1:29-32.
Look at how long God holds on to a person before he or she is given over to a reprobate mind. First it's suppress the truth; then the foolish heart becomes darkened; then given up to uncleanness; then given up to vile affections; then reprobate mind. Each time the person is given up to the next downward step, it is because he or she has rejected God.
These are the steps that are taken over the course of many years. God holds on as long as He can, but at some point, as they move further and further away from Him, God has to let them go.
It's not like they are born with a reprobate mind to begin with ... or that they suppress the truth in unrighteousness one moment and the next moment they have a reprobate mind. There are more than several steps involved in the downward spiral to reprobate mind. And in the Greek the word reprobate means not standing the test; not approved.
And at any point, a person can allow the truth of God's Word to penetrate their heart and God will start working to bring increase to that little kernel of truth they do not restrain (faith by hearing and hearing by word of God – Rom 10:17). God brings the increase in the heart of those who do not reject Him.
That is why it is so important for us as believers (and to whom God has entrusted the ministry of reconciliation - 2 Col 5:18-20) to speak the truth of God's Word to others ... not man's wisdom.
Thanks for the info...that is how I see it, as well. I enjoyed your write-up on it. It was very in-depth and knowledgeable.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,696
1,894
113
Don't think that is what the Bible informs us of:

[Exo 10:20 KJV]
20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

God used Pharaoh as a demonstration of His power

[Rom 9:17 KJV]
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Exactly how many chances did he give Pharoah?

God knew what Pharoah was going to do, yet he still allowed him Chances to repent...did he not? How many times did he send Moses to tell him to let his people go? How many times did Pharoah continue to disobey and harden his own heart?

So Pharoah set himself up above God and yes, God brought him down and shown His power over Pharoah?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, God is a God of Love, only those who are self-righteous because "They" willed themselves into His Kingdom, with their own "works" of believing will state "God is not a God of Love".

Yes, I agree with you we can NOT obey the Gospel in our own dead and sinful life.
Once we are truly Born-again from above by and through the Working Power of the Holy Spirit, which has come to convict the world of sin. We can through the Power of the Holy Spirit are able to obey the Gospel and live a Godly life, by the working of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts, souls and minds, it's called sanctification.
IF the Lord is the Author of our Salvation, He is also the finisher of our salvation. That which He has begun He has promised to get His true Children to the finish line.
We can do NOTHING through the power of our human flesh, it is dead, but through the Power of the Holy Spirit, and only through Him are we able to live a life pleasing unto the Lord. We grow from grace to grace, and it's according to each individual believer's walk with the Lord according to His Perfect Will and His purpose for our lives.
Once we know HIM, we are dead but ALIVE unto Him and our lives are placed upon the Altar as Abraham placed Isaac, upon the Altar, because Isaac was the promise fulfilled to Abraham once he was unable to naturally give seed to Sarah, who was barren. So once we are granted the promise of eternal life, by the Faith of Christ given us to believe, then we place our lives on the Altar to allow God to do with us as He will according to His Will and purpose.
And that PROVES the Love of God towards His Children......as long as we have not crashed the wedding dinner;

Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


The Lord bless you.
if I can not believe what God is showing me in my dead state, then I can not be justified

If I can not be justified, I can not be made alive

No one will make it to heaven in this case.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
1,018
173
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Ever heard of Jesus Christ..He died to set us free from the law of sin and death.
You should have included the preceding verse too

[Rom 8:1 KJV] 1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

So, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ITSELF (and not by anything Paul, or anyone else could do) set them free from the
law of sin and death
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
What "slowly"? There was no "slowly" about it- they were hardened, period. Where in that verse do you find support for your conclusion? In Greek It is "hardened" NOT "strengthened". I posted its definition yesterday. Did you miss it? I can repost. Here:

[Jhn 12:40 KJV] 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

pōroō (Key)
Pronunciation
po-ro'-o

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
Apparently from poros (a kind of stone)
Greek Inflections of πωρόω [?]
mGNT
5x in 5 unique form(s) TR
5x in 5 unique form(s) LXX
1x in 1 unique form(s)
ἐπωρώθη — 1x
ἐπωρώθησαν — 1x
πεπώρωκεν — 1x
πεπωρωμένη — 1x
πεπωρωμένην — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 5:1025,816
KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G4456 in the following manner: harden (3x), blind (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to cover with a thick skin, to harden by covering with a callus
  2. metaph.
    1. to make the heart dull
    2. to grow hard, callous, become dull, lose the power of understanding
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
πωρόω pōróō, po-ro'-o; apparently from πῶρος pōros (a kind of stone); to petrify, i.e. (figuratively) to indurate (render stupid or callous):—blind, harden.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 4456: πωρόω
πωρόω, πώρω: 1 aorist ἐπωρωσα (John 12:40 T Tr WH); perfect πεπώρωκα; perfect passive participle πεπωρωμενος; 1 aorist passive ἐπωρωθην; (πῶρος, hard skin, a hardening, induration); to cover with a thick skin, to harden by covering with a callus (R. V. everywhere simply to harden): metaphorically, καρδίαν, to make the heart dull, John 12:40; passive, to grow hard or callous, become dull, lose the power of understanding: Romans 11:7; τά νοήματα, 2 Corinthians 3:14; ἡ καρδία, Mark 6:52; Mark 8:17. Cf. Fritzsche, Commentary on Mark, p. 78f; on Romans, ii., p. 451f. ((Hippocrates (), Aristotle, others.))
THAYER’S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com
BLB Scripture Index of Thayer's
Mark6:52; 8:17John12:40; 12:40Romans11:72 Corinthians3:14
There was no slowly about it?

I am sorry my friend, you need to study all of the things God did to Egypt. He did not start off with the greatest plague first. He started small and worked his way up.

This strengthening of our hearts cause us to be callous, as I have said, it makes it EASIER to deny the truth..
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
1,018
173
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Exactly how many chances did he give Pharoah?
Exactly as many as He wanted in order to demonstrate His power. Here I'll repost:

[Rom 9:17 KJV] 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

How do you interpret that verse?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Not after Adam and Eve

[Rom 7:14 KJV] 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

How do you have free will being sold UNDER sin; that is, in being a slave of sin?
Then Jesus wasted his breath in John 3, 4, 5, and 6.

You also hold yourself as special. Because God chose you and not your nieghbor.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
1,018
173
63
I am sorry my friend, you need to study all of the things God did to Egypt. He did not start off with the greatest plague first. He started small and worked his way up.
I'm sorry my friend but we were discussing the verse in John 12:40. Not the in OT