Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Mar 14, 2011
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[Jhn 17:2 KJV] 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
That’s one verse. What about all the passages that say the opposite?

Does John 3;16 say whoever believes will never perish but has eternal life so they can believe?
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Forgot this one:

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Yes, here is another thing about our faith in Christ or in God results to being born again by the word of God v23
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
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Does John 3;16 say whoever believes will never perish but has eternal life so they can believe?
The word that meaning of 3:16 turns upon is "believes"

[Jhn 3:16 KJV] 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Belief is given as a fruit of the Spirit to those born-again. Only in that manner can someone truly believe (faith). So, 3:16
is referring to those who have become born-again, but not to everyone - it is not open-ended in that regard.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,337
757
113
[Jhn 17:2 KJV] 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
John 17:20 Christ prays also those will believe on him not only the that who already believe. V23, that the world may know...
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,337
757
113
The word that meaning of 3:16 turns upon is "believes"

[Jhn 3:16 KJV] 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Belief is given as a fruit of the Spirit to those born-again. Only in that manner can someone truly believe (faith). So, 3:16
is referring to those who have become born-again, but not to everyone - it is not open-ended in that regard.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
The fruit is given to them to those already saved not that who will be save.
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
431
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John 17:20 Christ prays also those will believe on him not only the that who already believe. V23, that the world may know...
Those in v23 are within the context, and a continuation of, v2 and v9 - they're all linked under that verse

[Jhn 17:9 KJV] 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
431
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The fruit is given to them to those already saved not that who will be save.
So then you're agreeing that they cannot have faith until they're saved as an after effect? Then it can't be their faith that has saved them since
they get it afterwards, right?
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,337
757
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Those in v23 are within the context, and a continuation of, v2 and v9 - they're all linked under that verse

[Jhn 17:9 KJV] 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
That is Christ prayer to his own. This prayer of securing his own not necessarily the world yet he is praying the world may believe. Distinction, a prayer is made to his own for keeping while the world is for believing.
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
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Belief in the word, the gospel, in the precious blood of Christ makes a person born again
Can't have that UNTIL we're born again. I thought that's what you had said. Anyway, we do not become indwelt by the Holy
Spirit, which indwelling brings the fruit of the Spirt, one of which is faith (as the verse I included tells us), UNTIL becoming born-again, but not before that
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
431
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That is Christ prayer to his own. This prayer of securing his own not necessarily the world yet he is praying the world may believe. Distinction, a prayer is made to his own for keeping while the world is for believing.
Don't think so

[Jhn 17:20 KJV] 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

This verse is connected to v2 and v9 by the "ALSO". Remember true belief is a fruit of the Spirit
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,337
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So then you're agreeing that they cannot have faith until they're saved as an after effect? Then it can't be their faith that has saved them since
they get it afterwards, right?
They are saved because of their faith in Christ or the gospel. We then go back to Romans 1:16 the gospel, the power of God to save to them tha believes.
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,382
17,666
113
The word that meaning of 3:16 turns upon is "believes"

[Jhn 3:16 KJV] 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Belief is given as a fruit of the Spirit to those born-again. Only in that manner can someone truly believe (faith). So, 3:16
is referring to those who have become born-again, but not to everyone - it is not open-ended in that regard.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Sorry friend

John 3 said those who believe are given life.. It is they who are born again.

Again, As John said in the first chapter But as many as have recieved him TO THEM he gave the power to be sons of God.

In John 3, Jesus is telling nicodemus HOW to be born again.. That as moses lifted up the serpent, so must the son of man be lifted up. That whoever BELIEVES.

Those who believes looked and where given life

those who did not died..
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,337
757
113
Don't think so

[Jhn 17:20 KJV] 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

This verse is connected to v2 and v9 by the "ALSO". Remember true belief is a fruit of the Spirit
Those belong to who shall believe belongs to the world and Christ is also praying for them. So that unsaved are subject of God's love.
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
431
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They are saved because of their faith in Christ or the gospel. We then go back to Romans 1:16 the gospel, the power of God to save to them tha believes.
Remember only those who have been given the fruit of the Spirt have belief. That happens only
AFTER becoming born again not before

don't forget:

[Rom 1:17 KJV]
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

"faith to faith": Christ's faith given to those who have become born again, by the Holy Spirit. It is
by Christ's faithfulness (not ours) to the Father, that we are given eternal life
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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rogerg said:
To work for food is to read the Bible, and through the Holy Spirit, find His Gospel.

Only those God has chosen can come to correct understanding.
Natural man are the unsaved
And we are told " your faith" receives spirit which is of God.
It's instructive to learn what Jesus said to the woman with a bleeding issue.

Mark 5:34 - He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”

If Jesus had been a Calvinist, He would have said "the faith that God gave you has healed you".

But He wasn't and He didn't. Rom 10:10 says man believes from the heart. Jesus knew that.