Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[Sipsey]

I see this debate, like so many others, rests on the settled views that each has on what the Scriptures say about any given subject.
It seems I always return to these words spoken by my Lord and Savior: “But Jesus replied, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”

I have read and studied for many decades and I conclude that much debate comes from folks that use the parts of Scripture they like or understand, and ignore much of the rest. All the Apostles taught grace and forgiveness and how to be reconciled with God, from the OT. How many of us here could close the NT and do the same? It’s not easy nor possible, if attempted without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

There are many teaching false doctrines as truth on this site. The stalwarts battle daily to defend these truths. I am not cut out to deal with debate by keyboard.

I wish you all well and hope the peace of God will overcome each of you.

 

[Laura798]

I see this debate, like so many others, rests on the settled views that each has on what the Scriptures say about any given subject.
It seems I always return to these words spoken by my Lord and Savior: “But Jesus replied, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”

I have read and studied for many decades and I conclude that much debate comes from folks that use the parts of Scripture they like or understand, and ignore much of the rest. All the Apostles taught grace and forgiveness and how to be reconciled with God, from the OT. How many of us here could close the NT and do the same? It’s not easy nor possible, if attempted without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

There are many teaching false doctrines as truth on this site. The stalwarts battle daily to defend these truths. I am not cut out to deal with debate by keyboard.

I wish you all well and hope the peace of God will overcome each of you.

And sadly Sipsey, Ive discovered over the last few years of studying denominations that ALL without exception have some false doctrine co-mingled with the Truth. The majority of Christians even given multiple scrIptures that reveal the Truth will cling tenaciously to the doctrines theyve been taught by their particular denomination— it is one of the reasons ive left the institutional church. The Pharisees studied the scriptures daily yet never came to the knowledge of THE TRUTH.

To say a person is immortal and can go directly to heaven without being escorted by Christ, the bridegroom and without their wedding clothes/immortal bodies, circumventing the Judgment— is blasphemy in the highest order— this is what most people who believe in ‘a’ god believe, but those who read and study Gods Word—they are without excuse.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Follow the Truth = Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die."

Jesus is asking you, Phoneman - "Do you believe this?”

Yes, but it's your warped idea of what happens to a Soul at death is the result of your failure to understand what a Soul is and how it begins, though it's plain to you in Genesis 2:7 KJV.

How can the Soul continue to exist after the Body returns to dust and the Breath of Life to God, when Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly says the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life?

Does the light from a lightbulb continue shining in another unseen realm when the electric current is removed from it? To say so is just as absurd as "immortal soul" doctrine.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I see this debate, like so many others, rests on the settled views that each has on what the Scriptures say about any given subject.
It seems I always return to these words spoken by my Lord and Savior: “But Jesus replied, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”

I have read and studied for many decades and I conclude that much debate comes from folks that use the parts of Scripture they like or understand, and ignore much of the rest. All the Apostles taught grace and forgiveness and how to be reconciled with God, from the OT. How many of us here could close the NT and do the same? It’s not easy nor possible, if attempted without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

There are many teaching false doctrines as truth on this site. The stalwarts battle daily to defend these truths. I am not cut out to deal with debate by keyboard.

I wish you all well and hope the peace of God will overcome each of you.

Sorry to hear you've wasted so much time studying only to have arrived at so many wrong conclusions.

 

[Laura798]

um..
you know that guy you were praising saying you agree 100% with?

he is the one saying every living soul is annihilated and ceases to exist:




he is saying that the existence of every living creature is only in the body.
he is saying every living creature is utterly destroyed by dust returning to dust.
he is saying all life ceases to exist.
you are saying you are his disciple and you are cursing everyone else who is opposing him.


so it's like i told you earlier: you do not seem to understand what you are reading.
being super-aggressive in a conversation that you don't comprehend is a recipe for embarassing ones self.

I see that now and apologize for missing it. Im not sure why he would use that term. The bible calls it sleep as we will ALL awake to face the judgment at Christs second coming. As to my aggressiveness it boggles the mind that a person who studies scripture can believe in pagan myths that a soul is immortal and can circumvent the Judgment and go directly to heaven without their wedding clothes/immortal bodies, making Christs return a moot point—please see my previous post to Sipsey.

Genesis is clear— it is Gods breath that makes one a living SOUL and when that breath is taken away — there is no activity of the emotion mind and will — the things that make us who we are— our personhood. in the same way a lamp cannot be turned on without being plugged in and receiving an electrical current. It is impossible for it to be turned on until someone plugs it into the outlet. In this case, Christ is the one who will plug in the believer to God the life source- animating both body and soul to life once again.
I see in PM writings that he does believe that all will come to life ( and cannot enter heaven before then) and rise again at Christs Second Coming— “some to everlasting life others to eternal condemnation”

And in this Im in full agreement with as the Scriptures clearly say.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

7 And the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.

 

[Laura798]

Yes, but it's your warped idea of what happens to a Soul at death is the result of your failure to understand what a Soul is and how it begins, though it's plain to you in Genesis 2:7 KJV.

How can the Soul continue to exist after the Body returns to dust and the Breath of Life to God, when Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly says the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life?

Does the light from a lightbulb continue shining in another unseen realm when the electric current is removed from it? To say so is just as absurd as "immortal soul" doctrine.

How odd— just typed same analogy having not seen yours.

 

[DavidTree]

Yes, but it's your warped idea of what happens to a Soul at death is the result of your failure to understand what a Soul is and how it begins, though it's plain to you in Genesis 2:7 KJV.

How can the Soul continue to exist after the Body returns to dust and the Breath of Life to God, when Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly says the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life?

Does the light from a lightbulb continue shining in another unseen realm when the electric current is removed from it? To say so is just as absurd as "immortal soul" doctrine.

Start this New Day on the Path of Discovery in Truth.

You said: "How can the Soul continue to exist after the Body returns to dust and the Breath of Life to God, when Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly says the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life?"

Step 1 - Reexamine exactly what God said in Genesis 2:7

Step 2 - Challenge your thought = "the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life?"

Step 3 - Compare all Scripture to Itself and discover the hierarchy of Scripture. Do not allow yourself to fill in blanks, let the maturity of Christ and the Apostles do that for us.

 

[posthuman]

I see that now and apologize for missing it. Im not sure why he would use that term.

The bible calls it sleep as we will ALL awake to face the judgment at Christs second coming. As to my aggressiveness it boggles the mind that a person who studies scripture can believe in pagan myths that a soul is immortal and can circumvent the Judgment

i believe "eternal life" means "eternal life"

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand!
(John 10:28)
​

i believe Salvation

Amen, Amen I say to you:
he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life,
and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life!
(John 5:2) ​

 

[Phoneman-777]

It's not only all possible, it's all a fact. Souls do not sleep. Rev 6 and the 5th seal has martyred souls in heaven shouting for revenge, and given robes and told to wait. Doesn't sound like a slumber party to me.

Pretty sure Revelation is a symbolic book, according to the very first verse of it The "souls under the altar" are a symbol for the injustice of what was done to the martyrs crying out before God for His vengeance, not disembodied "souls" because they have ceased to exist, and not red and white corpuscles because they got no vocal cords.

I don't agree with your take on Paul's comment about being absent from the body and present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:6,8 So it is an either/or situation. We are either alive in our physical bodies, or we are absent from our bodies and at home with the Lord.

If I ignored what Paul said about "naked" and "unclothed" and pretended it didn't exist and offered no explanation for it and pretended it wasn't a third option to your "either/or" scenario...sure, I'd believe as you do. But, I got this little "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" problem.

So, this passage, and Luke 16 literal account and Rev 6 and the 5th seal, the idea of soul sleep is refuted.

Luke 16's a parable, Rev 6 and the fifth seal is as symbolic as Cain's blood crying out. You can't substantiate a doctrine on uninterpreted passages.

The soul is at home with the Lord, which is proved by Rev 6.

Really? Was Jesus' soul "at home with the Lord" when He died? No, it was in "hell" aka "the grave" and was "not left in hell" because God resurrected Him. The Gospel of Inconsistency is strong with you, I think.

Oh, btw, when Jesus told one of the thiefs on the cross that he would be WITH Jesus in Paradise on THAT DAY, was Jesus inviting him to a slumber party or something? Of course not.

Jesus didn't say it to him on Thursday, or Saturday, or Sunday, He said it on THAT DAY: "Thief, I say unto you on this Preparation Day while I hang here looking like I'll never keep another promise again........ , ........you will be with me in Paradise." (See how the verse harmonizes with the rest of Scripture when you put that uninspired comma in the right spot?)

 

[Laura798]

i believe "eternal life" means "eternal life"

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; ​

neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand!​

(John 10:28)​

​

i believe Salvation

Amen, Amen I say to you: ​

he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, ​

and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life!​

(John 5:2) ​

How important it is to never isolate scripture as that is where all false doctrine originates. In this you are saying the soul is immortal— which is blasphemy against God.

Please read the whole of scripture as scripture NEVER contradicts itself.

Understand that even if thousands of years have passed— there is ZERO passage of time from the dead persons perspective— we DO pass from death to life in the twinkling of an eye as scripture says:

"in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”-1st Corinthians 15:52

 

[Phoneman-777]

Start this New Day on the Path of Discovery in Truth.

You said: "How can the Soul continue to exist after the Body returns to dust and the Breath of Life to God, when Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly says the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life?"

Step 1 - Reexamine exactly what God said in Genesis 2:7

Step 2 - Challenge your thought = "the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life?"

Step 3 - Compare all Scripture to Itself and discover the hierarchy of Scripture. Do not allow yourself to fill in blanks, let the maturity of Christ and the Apostles do that for us.

Yep, just keep ignoring what's staring you in the face, OK? The text plainly says the union of the two parts equal the whole, but somehow you separation of the two parts maintains the existence of the whole...right?

 

[DavidTree]

Yep, just keep ignoring what's staring you in the face, OK? The text plainly says the union of the two parts equal the whole, but somehow you separation of the two parts maintains the existence of the whole...right?

You will never understand if you hold to a position of anihilation/soul sleep, which the Lord, the Apostles and Scripture reject.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

7 And the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.

One part is Dust formed into a man.
Second part is God breathing the Soul of Life into man.
At Death, the formed man will return back to the Dust and the Soul will return back to God.
Nothing of God will ever Die!!
Thus, the Soul will never physically Die.

Even a Soul in the Lake of Fire spends Eternity alive and does not die.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Why couldn't David simply be describing the obvious fact that dead people no longer speak? We sure don't hear mumblings in graves, right?
These things are not difficult to understand. Just need a bit more light in. Stop squinting.

Yes, David refered to PEOPLE aka SOULS that no longer speak when dead.

A Soul is the whole Person, the whole Creature, the whole Being. It's not the pagan, occult, demonic idea that it is a "translucent, vaporous, humanoid looking thing that flies off when the body shell drops off at death. Good gravy, don't you "immortal soul" people understand that you're trying to prove the Serpent true and God a liar? Please do some research on occultism and see how your belief about life/death is exactly what Satanically inspired paganism teaches.

 

[DavidTree]

Yes, David refered to PEOPLE aka SOULS that no longer speak when dead.

A Soul is the whole Person, the whole Creature, the whole Being. It's not the pagan, occult, demonic idea that it is a "translucent, vaporous, humanoid looking thing that flies off when the body shell drops off at death. Good gravy, don't you "immortal soul" people understand that you're trying to prove the Serpent true and God a liar? Please do some research on occultism and see how your belief about life/death is exactly what Satanically inspired paganism teaches.

True = "Yes, David refered to PEOPLE aka SOULS that no longer speak when dead."

However, you do not understand why, even though it has been explained to you in the Word and by others on here.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You will never understand if you hold to a position of anihilation/soul sleep, which the Lord, the Apostles and Scripture reject.

You'll never understand the Serpent was lying when he said people don't "surely" die.

God says in death there is "no knowledge, wisdom, emotions, memories, lay plans, lifting hands and praising God, work, light, or any noise whatsoever. You and the Serpent say in death, we know things like "good and evil" and I'm sorry, but I just can't trust the one who tried to destroy the One Who gave Himself to save me.

 

[DavidTree]

You'll never understand the Serpent was lying when he said people don't "surely" die.

God says in death there is "no knowledge, wisdom, emotions, memories, lay plans, lifting hands and praising God, work, light, or any noise whatsoever. You and the Serpent say in death, we know things like "good and evil" and I'm sorry, but I just can't trust the one who tried to destroy the One Who gave Himself to save me.

You misquoted and misapplied Genesis here.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Abide in the flesh, or depart from the flesh and be with Christ which is far better…

Philippians 1:
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

When I'm walking out to the parking lot to leave after a long hard day, I want nothing better to be absent from the phone company and present in a hot shower...but I still fight that horrible rush hour traffic on the drive home, right?

Paul wanted to be absent from the body and present with Jesus but he knew he'd be lying "naked" and "unclothed" in the grave dead waiting for his "crown of righteousness at that day" of "His appearing" when Jesus will "change our vile body that it might be fashioned like unto His glorious body". Please read 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 KJV and incorporate "naked" and "unclothed" instead of glossing over in order to retain a false idea.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Tell that to Samuel. Dead guys can speak.

If you believe it’s a parable, what’s the teaching?

Yes, let's all believe dead saints in heaven have to obey the commands of Satan's witches and appear at their beck and call...SMH

A "familiar spirit" is a DEMON impersonating a dead loved one and is why God told us not to talk with them, the same reason we tell our kids not to talk to strangers. That was not Samuel, for Solomon said of dead Samuel, "the dead know not anything."