Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[kleronomos]

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

 

[oyster67]

I just cannot imagine grandmother oyster's disembodied soul floating in a mason jar in God's sky-pantry waiting for the Rapture to happen. Is it possible that when Church-saints die, their souls get whisked forward through time to that "twinkle-eye" thingy?

1 Corinthians
15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Phoneman-777]

why would that surprise you? have you never read Romans 6? we should expect that, not scoff at it.
know the difference between your carnal human definitions of life and death and God's definitions.

Luke 16:19-31 is the Truth, not a pack of lies. if you disagree with Christ, you are the liar writing myths, not Him.

Actually, it is your carnal pagan "Greek" understanding of what happens when we die that confuses you all. The pagan Greeks taught the body is a "shell" which falls off at death, releasing an immortal poltergeist that can hear, see, think, etc. and you all teach the exact same thing.

Bible teaches the Spirit returns to God, the Body to the dust, and the mortal Soul (since it only exists when these two combine) ceases to exist. Just like that light bulb analogy, right?

 

[posthuman]

Actually, it is your carnal pagan "Greek" understanding of what happens when we die that confuses you all. The pagan Greeks taught the body is a "shell" which falls off at death, releasing an immortal poltergeist that can hear, see, think, etc. and you all teach the exact same thing.

Bible teaches the Spirit returns to God, the Body to the dust, and the mortal Soul (since it only exists when these two combine) ceases to exist. Just like that light bulb analogy, right?

so IOW your position is that in Luke 16, Jesus Christ is a boldfaced pagan liar?

not looking good for you.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I don't know if this answers the question for you but it does me.

Matthew 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Pretty sure that's talking about their romantic nature, or lack thereof, not their physical nature. Besides, didn't Jesus say His body was not as an angel, but was "flesh and bones"?

 

[Phoneman-777]

so IOW your position is that in Luke 16, Jesus Christ is a boldfaced pagan liar?

not looking good for you.

Only those who make the passage literal make Jesus a liar because Jesus told Paul to tell us that we put on our immortal bodies "at the last trump", not when we die (1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV), right or wrong?

We who understand Luke 16 is a parable know He told the truth.

 

[posthuman]

Only those who make the passage literal

Since it's your express belief that it is typical of Christ to teach in BS evil nonsense fairy tales it should be easy for you to show us all a second example of Christ speaking 'impossible fanciful pagan mythical lies' as though they were factual.

Go ahead.
We will wait.
You are the expert.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Since it's your express belief that it is typical of Christ to teach in BS evil nonsense fairy tales it should be easy for you to show us all a second example of Christ speaking 'impossible fanciful pagan mythical lies' as though they were factual.

Go ahead.
We will wait.
You are the expert.

Can you ask questions without all the parting shots, bro? Thanks.

Jesus called us sheep...is He a liar because our butts ain't covered in wool?
Jesus said the "harvest" is plentiful...so, we ought to be preaching to corn, wheat, and beanstalks?
Jesus said He's the Vine, we're the branches, so He's gonna keep sin outta heaven with Redeemer Roundup, right?
Jesus inspired Jotham to say trees really can walk, talk, and make horrible life choices like in Lord of the Rings, right?

 

[kleronomos]

Pretty sure that's talking about their romantic nature, or lack thereof, not their physical nature. Besides, didn't Jesus say His body was not as an angel, but was "flesh and bones"?

Matthew 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

Matthew 22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

Matthew 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

Sometimes it is best to go and read the whole account as the answer is found there and we don't have to 'think' we can just know. Sometimes, not so much...

such as the next subject. Now, I know flesh and BLOOD can't but since I don't know what effect being the only Begotten Son had and how He would be walking around for all that time figured in, I can't say.

But I do know about ANGELS and ALL the misconceptions on who they are and where they come from and where they go to...

Hebrews 13:1 Let brotherly love continue. 2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Psalm 78:21 Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel 22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation 23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven 24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven 25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.


2 Peter 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.


Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Revelation 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Revelation 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!



Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

[walknlight]

Hi!

Actually, it is your carnal pagan "Greek" understanding of what happens when we die that confuses you all. The pagan Greeks taught the body is a "shell" which falls off at death, releasing an immortal poltergeist that can hear, see, think, etc. and you all teach the exact same thing.

Bible teaches the Spirit returns to God, the Body to the dust, and the mortal Soul (since it only exists when these two combine) ceases to exist. Just like that light bulb analogy, right?

Question.

Mark 5:8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
Mark 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Where do demons/unclean spirits come from?


God Bless....

 

[posthuman]

Can you ask questions without all the parting shots, bro? Thanks.

Jesus called us sheep...is He a liar because our butts ain't covered in wool?
Jesus said the "harvest" is plentiful...so, we ought to be preaching to corn, wheat, and beanstalks?
Jesus said He's the Vine, we're the branches, so He's gonna keep sin outta heaven with Redeemer Roundup, right?
Jesus inspired Jotham to say trees really can walk, talk, and make horrible life choices like in Lord of the Rings, right?

sheep exist.
harvests exist.
vines exist.
trees exist and do move & communicate with each other.

but you say Jesus is presenting totally fabricated pagan lies as truth in Luke 16.
the scripture does not call this a parable, and no parable is made up of fairy-tale elements.

you're calling Him a liar. you say He's speaking rubbish & deceiving the people with false myths.
it ain't looking good for you.

 

[posthuman]

understanding of what happens

Moses & Elijah at the transfiguration, Matthew 17
Samuel at Endor, 1 Samuel 28
the saints under the altar, Revelation 6
Abel's blood, Genesis 4
the dead hearing the gospel, 1 Peter 4
Jesus Christ literally telling us those whose bodies have died still have awareness and faculties, Luke 16

but your position is that the Bible is full of silly myths and lies, huh??

 

[jb]

We who understand...

Saith the blind teacher of the blind, who twists the Scriptures! Matt 15v14, 2Peter 3v16.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Matthew 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

Matthew 22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

Matthew 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

Sometimes it is best to go and read the whole account as the answer is found there and we don't have to 'think' we can just know. Sometimes, not so much...

such as the next subject. Now, I know flesh and BLOOD can't but since I don't know what effect being the only Begotten Son had and how He would be walking around for all that time figured in, I can't say.

But I do know about ANGELS and ALL the misconceptions on who they are and where they come from and where they go to...

Hebrews 13:1 Let brotherly love continue. 2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Psalm 78:21 Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel 22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation 23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven 24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven 25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.


2 Peter 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.


Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Revelation 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Revelation 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!



Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

​

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Yes, angels are spirits having neither flesh nor bones, according to Jesus, and humanity has nothing to do with that for we are a different order of being.

"...for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see Me have."​

The Rich Man and Lazarus cannot be a literal story, because they are depicted as having body parts which the Scriptures clearly teach the dead do not receive UNTIL the resurrection. Therefore, the passage is parabolic, else Jesus contradicted Himself and the other Biblical authors He inspired.

 

[DavidTree]

Apparently coming back in for another dance...


2Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

God is so Smart, that HE made sure HE had a answer to every lie/error that the enemy would speak.

Notice how the Scripture you posted speaks clearly and needs no interpretation - Amen

 

[Phoneman-777]

Hi!


Question.

Mark 5:8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
Mark 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Where do demons/unclean spirits come from?


God Bless....

Hi, I'll assume you are drawing a connection with the divine "Breath of Life" aka "Spirit of Life" in Genesis 2:7 KJV with demons and unclean spirits? If so, Genesis 2:7 KJV speaks of the Breath/Spirit of God which is His life-giving principle that animates the inanimate, dust from which we came, rocks if He wants them to cry out "hosanna", etc.

However, demons/unclean spirits are something altogether different: as mere created beings, they were once holy angels that rebelled and became demons aka unclean spirits and now await destruction in the Lake of Fire prepared for them.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, angels are spirits having neither flesh nor bones, according to Jesus, and humanity has nothing to do with that for we are a different order of being.

"...for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see Me have."​

The Rich Man and Lazarus cannot be a literal story, because they are depicted as having body parts which the Scriptures clearly teach the dead do not receive UNTIL the resurrection. Therefore, the passage is parabolic, else Jesus contradicted Himself and the other Biblical authors He inspired.

“It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t myself think it’s literally Jesus recounting an event but it’s rather Jesus teaching about what can happen after we let our earthly body.

he teaches of two men who died one was taken by the angels to paradise with abrahams family. The other was sent into the torment the Bible teaches about that is the other destination of mans souls

it’s showing us two possibilities that occur after people die to this world and enter the next in thier spiritual body made for the spiritual realms

Jesus is teaching those who hear bout things only he understood

 

[Phoneman-777]

sheep exist.
harvests exist.
vines exist.
trees exist and do move & communicate with each other.

but you say Jesus is presenting totally fabricated pagan lies as truth in Luke 16.
the scripture does not call this a parable, and no parable is made up of fairy-tale elements.

you're calling Him a liar. you say He's speaking rubbish & deceiving the people with false myths.
it ain't looking good for you.

Do angels exist?
Did Abraham have a bosom?
Do flames exist?
Does water exist?
Do eyes, fingers, and tongues exist?

Sure they do. However, the manner in which they exist and interact in the parable of Luke 16 no more reflects real experience than the real experience of sheep, of which we are said figuratively to be.......unless your butt is covered in wool.

Brother, I hereby crown thee "KING" of the Royal Realm of Strawman.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Moses & Elijah at the transfiguration, Matthew 17
Samuel at Endor, 1 Samuel 28

Not real, dead, Samuel, but a "familiar spirit" aka demon impersonating a dead human. Proof? "The dead know not anything" and have no "device, knowledge, or wisdom".

the saints under the altar, Revelation 6

figurative for "divine justice crying out within the Lord" because the dead go down into "silence" - they don't make noise.

Abel's blood, Genesis 4

See above

the dead hearing the gospel, 1 Peter 4

If I give a suit to a man and he later dies, did I give a suit to a man that is dead? Yes. The Gospel was preached to them who later died after it had been preached.

Jesus Christ literally telling us those whose bodies have died still have awareness and faculties, Luke 16 but your position is that the Bible is full of silly myths and lies, huh??

Don't be dishonest. You know full well your position is that the body returns to the dust but what your ilk define is the disembodied "soul" goes flying off to heaven or burning in hell.

However, since Jesus taught nothing of the kind and inspired His prophets to say we don't get our resurrection bodies until the resurrection, Luke 16 is no more literal a passage than is the passage He inspired in Judges 9 when Jotham said trees, like us, walk, talk, and make horrible life choices.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Saith the blind teacher of the blind, who twists the Scriptures! Matt 15v14, 2Peter 3v16.

Don't hate me because I'm truth-a-ful