Does Acts 2:38 mean we have to be baptized to get into Heaven? -Debate

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kennethcadwell

Guest
Kenneth, has anyone on here ever denied that?

It is irrelevant. We are talking about what you do to be saved -- not what results from salvation. Eph 2 is clear on this.
That is what I have been constantly debated on though, by saying that works have to be present in a believers life.
If they are not, they are not a true believer.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
yet you say salvation can be lost.

so you HAVE to be saying one can do work and still not be saved. Thus you have to be sayig there are certain amount of works one must do.

You can not have it both ways ken.

either we are saved by faith (a living faith which works) and this salvation is forever. (no faith = no salvation)

or we are saved by faith pus works, and there is a certain amounts of works which must be maintained, or salvation is lost.

no inbetween.


Because Paul clearly says that if you do not continue in His grace, you will be cut off.
And Paul also says in Galatians 5 that you can fall from grace, a person who falls from grace does not have salvation.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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I have seen him since being on this site being judgmental,
I have no recollection of seeing such. Do you know what the sin of judging is?

name calling?
Like "thou fool"? How about "O generation of vipers"?

I do show the same love, forgiveness, and mercy
You certainly do not have the same love that the Lord Jesus shows. If you think so, you are self-righteous. It is not the Pharisee who praises his own righteousness, but the Publican who cries, "God be merciful to me a sinner" who gets justifiec.

I do not show selfishness,
James says that even Christians stumble. If you claim you don't show selfishness, then you are self-righteous and stating a falsehood.

Nowhere does the bible say salvation is a present possession,
Utterly false.

SALVATION IS A POSSESSION INSTANTLY RECEIVED AS A PRESENT POSSESSION

Instant Salvation in Past Tense

“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)

th Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)

Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:


But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19:8)

Cornelius was instantly saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any Eastern or Western organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. (Acts 15:11)

Consider Eph 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. It is all or nothing here.


In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.


[the Lord God] who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, - 2 Tim 1:9

Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.

he [God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)


The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! (Rom 5:9) Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instante.

Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)

There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.

Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.


he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)

For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor 2:15)

It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.
 
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Peter, Paul, and John all say one can loose salvation if they do not continue in God's grace.

Jesus, Paul, and James all say that if no obedient works follow your faith then one is not saved.

I have shown you clear scriptural evidence that shows the difference between a believer who sins, and a believer who returns to willful sin. Galatians 5 for one Paul shows that we can fall from grace.
ALL sin is WILLFUL and your twist of scriptures prove nothing...SALVATION is ETRNAL and based UPON the faith of CHRIST so answer the questions.....

How many times have you lost your salvation?
How long did it take for you to loose your salvation?
And EXACTLY HOW did you get it back SEEING it is IMPOSSIBLE to regain if LOST<--if you twist HEBREWS
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Kenneth, like so many, try to twist verses which don't even mention salvation into teaching salvation is something losable, which makes the term an oxymoron.

Because Paul clearly says that if you do not continue in His grace, you will be cut off.
Rom 11 addresses groups, Israel & Gentiles. Gentiles as a whole may be cut off from the sphere of God's blessing. It says nothing about individuals no longer being born again children of God nor "losing salvation." Lose & salvation never even occur together in one verse.

Rom 11 tells us that the gifts & calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.

And Paul also says in Galatians 5 that you can fall from grace, a person who falls from grace does not have salvation.
A dog can chase a truck & fall away from it, never having reached it. So by denying grace you show you never got salvation. You have heard grace proclaimed over & over on this site, and fallen away from it every time, so it would appear. Strange that you would site a passage which condemns those who would be justified by works.

Jehovah redeems the soul of his servants;
And none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
Col 3
When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then you also with him shall be manifested in glory.
2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

< 2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom;

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.


Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
 
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Because Paul clearly says that if you do not continue in His grace, you will be cut off.
And Paul also says in Galatians 5 that you can fall from grace, a person who falls from grace does not have salvation.
Another lack of understanding on your part and a twist of scripture while failing to understand WHY PAUL said what he SAID.....!

The Galatian brethren were wanting to MIX LAW with FAITH and GO BACK UNDER LAW and in SO DOING WERE REJECTING GRACE...OPEN your eyes BLIND MAN!
 
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elf3

Guest
We as Christians, followers of Christ, are called to teach and preach the true Gospel of Christ. The true Gospel of Christ does not include following the law, doing good works or baptism as a means to salvation. The true Gospel of Christ teaches Christ first and only as means to salvation. Adding anything else as a means to salvation is something we cannot do as they are not in the true Gospel of Christ.
 
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and I said before you tell someone they don't know what they are talking about, you should be sure you know what you are talking about, Romans 4:5 is Paul rebuking those that try and keep the Mosaic Law, and not the Law of Christ... James does not preach another gospel.
Yeah I know it is you, Kenneth and your other fish buddy that teach another gospel which has no power to save!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
There are different positions in the church that we are each given to do, some to preach, some to teach, some to prophecy, some to administer to, and so on and so on.......

Paul was only commissioned to do the preaching, his co-workers ( fellow brothers and sisters in Christ ) that he sent before him, after him, and even came with him would be charged to carry out the other duties including baptism. Just because we have preachers now days and even then that performed all the duties, that does not mean nor was it always the standard to do that.
Paul followed the same standards as Jesus.
Jesus did the preaching and teaching, while His Apostles did the baptizing.
Paul followed that same standard by doing the preaching, and leaving the baptizing to the others....

we are ALL told to give the gospel. we do not give the gospel out in part. we give it out in WHOLE. The fact paul separates baptism from the gospel. says it all. for all who will listen.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Because Paul clearly says that if you do not continue in His grace, you will be cut off.
And Paul also says in Galatians 5 that you can fall from grace, a person who falls from grace does not have salvation.
so. tell us, What is the point in which one falls from grace.

How many works keep us in Gods grace, and how few works causes us to fall from Gods grace.

you keep backing yourself to a wall dude, and you never respond when confronted.
 
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You are the one that does not know what you are talking about, and your continuous showing of hatred in your wording toward another is a clear example of that.
James refers back to what the Lord said that if your faith does not show in your actions, then you are not saved...period.

James 2 and Matthew 25 say the same thing if you refuse to help others that are in need you have no salvation coming to you, but eternal punishment instead. If you deny others the same love, forgiveness, and mercy that was shown to you by the Lord our God, then you have no salvation coming your way no matter how much to try to say you believe in Him.
Your actions show differently.

Another wrong assumption on your part Kenneth and just as judgmental as you are accusing me of being....So is your daddy the accuser of the brethren leading you? After all you are preaching a false gospel that he preaches!
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Another wrong assumption on your part Kenneth and just as judgmental as you are accusing me of being....So is your daddy the accuser of the brethren leading you? After all you are preaching a false gospel that he preaches!

Again with the coarse talking and false witnessing against me that the bible says not to do.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
so. tell us, What is the point in which one falls from grace.

How many works keep us in Gods grace, and how few works causes us to fall from Gods grace.

you keep backing yourself to a wall dude, and you never respond when confronted.
All it takes is one unrepented willful sin that you follow and obey instead of following the Lord.
 
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dc is not arguing against that, He is arguing against the works which come from being a doer save you. and not doing enough of these works will cause you to lose salvation. your not listening to him.



and DC would agree with you 100%


but that is not the argument here
And you would be correct with the above statements!
 
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All it takes is one unrepented willful sin that you follow and obey instead of following the Lord.
So how many times have you lost your salvation as I have seen you admit to sinning once in a while.....1 time,5 times etc.?

Let me guess...never!
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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So how many times have you lost your salvation as I have seen you admit to sinning once in a while.....1 time,5 times etc.?

Let me guess...never!
1 Corinthians 4:4-5, "For I know nothing by myself; yet by this I am not justified, for He Who judges me is Yahweh! Therefore, judge nothing before the time. Wait until Yahshua comes, Who will bring to light the things hidden in darkness, and will reveal the secret intentions of men's hearts; and then each man will receive praise from Yahweh."
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest

we are ALL told to give the gospel. we do not give the gospel out in part. we give it out in WHOLE. The fact paul separates baptism from the gospel. says it all. for all who will listen.

The bible says we are to share the gospel, and then it says how it is given by us determines what the Holy Spirit will's us to do. For some He gives to be preachers, some teachers, and so on....

Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
If the boot fits....

1. You accused me
2. You preach a false gospel

Wear it Kenneth and admit it!

No I will not admit to your false accusation's toward me, and when we stand before Jesus at the judgment seat you will see that I am not teaching falsely. For all I do is stand up for our Lord and Savior and what He said.

Not bash, condemn, and use coarse words toward fellow brothers and sister's in Christ.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.