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E
Very true Jesus doesn't mention water but it is the only verse where Jesus does say "baptize in the name of.." so that would be our only "guide" so to speak. But also think, which I have been trying to say here, if water baptism was so major important to our salvation why doesn't Jesus mention it more? If we truly need to be baptized by water to be saved why isn't it preached more in the New Testament. And only one verse (Mark 16:16) mentions baptism and saved in the same verse. And then Jesus goes on to say that only those who do not have faith are condemned. If baptism was truly needed for salvation then Jesus would have added baptized in the "condemned" category.
And also so true that we for sure as anything don't do any of the saving. All we are called to do is preach the Gospel of Christ and let the Holy Spirit do His work on the hearts of those who hear us.
And also so true that we for sure as anything don't do any of the saving. All we are called to do is preach the Gospel of Christ and let the Holy Spirit do His work on the hearts of those who hear us.
You cannot receive the truth until you receive Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit. It does not matter how much water or how many times only God can save a soul and that by grace.
The great commission is a baptism in doctrine not water or Holy Spirit. It is in the context and the construction of the passage in the original language.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The great commission is a baptism in doctrine not water or Holy Spirit. It is in the context and the construction of the passage in the original language.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
K
The thing is not all do get saved after you give the gospel to them.
First off the bible says some will accept what they heard, others will reject it.
Second the bible says that then some will retain it and live by it for awhile, but then do to trial or tribulation ( troubles ) they turn away from the gospel delivered to them.
Third the bible says others will retain it for a little while, and then deception will catch a hold of them and they will wonder off under a false teacher ( deception ).
These are given in the parable of the sower and the seed, and which is why our Lord Jesus says that only after you have endured to the end are you saved. Because some will falter and not stand firm in the faith.
K
Lord Jesus only mentions confessing Him before others, and forgiving others of their sins a couple of times but yet they are essential for salvation.
For He says if you deny Him before others, He will deny you before the Father ( No confession, no salvation )
For He says if you don't forgive others their sins, neither will He forgive you of yours. ( No forgiveness, no salvation )
K
[h=1]Baptizo[/h]
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 320"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] Strong's Number: 907[/TD]
[TD="width: 120, align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Word Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]baptivzw[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from a derivative of (911)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Baptizo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]1:529,92[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]bap-tid'-zo [/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]
- to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
- to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
- to overwhelm
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
E
Plus adding to the Gospel of Christ just makes us the "new Pharisees". They added laws to faith and we do the same thing now. The Catholic Church for example has added so many things to the Gospel of Christ how can anyone truly be saved. Shoot if we really wanna be legalistic we need a document for people to sign upon repentance.
THAT IS A LIE!
For $64,000, quote any verse where the Lord Jesus says ONLY in "only after you have endured."
You refer to a passage about enduring the suffering of the Tribulation, which has nothing to do with salvation as the new birth that brings eternal life to the recipients.
But it is a fact that all who are saved endure.
I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, & THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.
Here again is the absolute proof:
Instant Salvation in Past Tense
“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)
th Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)
Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19:8)
Cornelius was instantly saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). No confession to others was required; no nothing else. Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. (Acts 15:11)
Consider Eph 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. It is all or nothing here.
In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.
[the Lord God] who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, - 2 Tim 1:9
Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.
he [God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! (Rom 5:9) Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instante.
Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)
There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.
Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.
he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)
For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor 2:15)
It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.
For $64,000, quote any verse where the Lord Jesus says ONLY in "only after you have endured."
You refer to a passage about enduring the suffering of the Tribulation, which has nothing to do with salvation as the new birth that brings eternal life to the recipients.
But it is a fact that all who are saved endure.
I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, & THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.
Here again is the absolute proof:
Instant Salvation in Past Tense
“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)
th Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)
Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19:8)
Cornelius was instantly saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). No confession to others was required; no nothing else. Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. (Acts 15:11)
Consider Eph 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. It is all or nothing here.
In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.
[the Lord God] who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, - 2 Tim 1:9
Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.
he [God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! (Rom 5:9) Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instante.
Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)
There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.
Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.
he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)
For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor 2:15)
It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.
E
you seem to be going in circles. I never claimed everyone would have saving faith. Some may listen to what you say with wonder, and go check it out. to either get saved later or figure out it was not what they pictured to be and they are no longer interested. Others may outright reject it, Others may recieve it with joy. and get saved at that moment.
the point is, water baptism would happen after they were saved, the act of baptism is a proof they had faith, and should not be the only proof we see.
and sadly, someone could get baptized, and do a few other things, but never have faith in Christ, they are just going through the motions, to be like everyone else.
the point is, water baptism would happen after they were saved, the act of baptism is a proof they had faith, and should not be the only proof we see.
and sadly, someone could get baptized, and do a few other things, but never have faith in Christ, they are just going through the motions, to be like everyone else.
No, they are not essential to receiving the new birth with eternal life.
Faith/belief/trust in the Savior are over & over the only requirement on man for his salvation. Language like whosoever believes, anyone/everyone who believes, rules out any essential addition.
You do not quote scripture, and your supposed scripture does not say "salvation."
Works like confessing to men, are not only not required but forbidden as grounds of salvation.
Unscriptural interpretation.
The word salvation is absent from your allusion.
Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
One of the means of salvation done by the Lord is chastisement. To avoid chastisement, forgive others of their sins.
The only grounds of forgiveness is the death of the Lord Jesus; He paid for all our sins.
Faith/belief/trust in the Savior are over & over the only requirement on man for his salvation. Language like whosoever believes, anyone/everyone who believes, rules out any essential addition.
You do not quote scripture, and your supposed scripture does not say "salvation."
Works like confessing to men, are not only not required but forbidden as grounds of salvation.
Unscriptural interpretation.
The word salvation is absent from your allusion.
Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
One of the means of salvation done by the Lord is chastisement. To avoid chastisement, forgive others of their sins.
The only grounds of forgiveness is the death of the Lord Jesus; He paid for all our sins.
Baptizo
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 320"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] Strong's Number: 907[/TD]
[TD="width: 120, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Word Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]baptivzw[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from a derivative of (911)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Baptizo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]1:529,92[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]bap-tid'-zo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]
- to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
- to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
- to overwhelm
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Thanks for trying. I stand amazed that you can cite correct information and still err in your doctrine. Truly amazing.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
V
Wow... I just happened to look down at the bottom of this page and it reads:
There are currently 18 users browsing this thread. (5 members and 13 guests)
It made me cry because I wondered how many of those guests are searching for Jesus Christ. I wonder if any were turned away because of the spiritual division in here with all the name calling and judging one another. I wonder if any of those guests see the Spirit of God in here at all.
Ya know, Jesus Christ IS the Living Word. I don't believe any of the disciples or any of Jesus' followers carried a Bible around with them to search out Scriptures to support their belief in the Lord. In fact, most of them were too busy running to their families and neighbors in great joy to tell what Jesus had done for them. And many were being persecuted and dragged to their deaths because it was obvious they were associated with Jesus Christ. I don't think one of them was found with a Bible in their hands. But every single one of them had the Holy Spirit of God in them revealing Jesus Christ. The Word was alive in them!
I am sorry if I came across as offensive to anyone in here. I genuinely desire that the Lord Jesus would be glorified in us and nothing else. I don't want to be right, I want God to reveal His righteousness. I pray in the name of Jesus that God would have His way and give us His wisdom regarding unity in His Spirit.
There are currently 18 users browsing this thread. (5 members and 13 guests)
It made me cry because I wondered how many of those guests are searching for Jesus Christ. I wonder if any were turned away because of the spiritual division in here with all the name calling and judging one another. I wonder if any of those guests see the Spirit of God in here at all.
Ya know, Jesus Christ IS the Living Word. I don't believe any of the disciples or any of Jesus' followers carried a Bible around with them to search out Scriptures to support their belief in the Lord. In fact, most of them were too busy running to their families and neighbors in great joy to tell what Jesus had done for them. And many were being persecuted and dragged to their deaths because it was obvious they were associated with Jesus Christ. I don't think one of them was found with a Bible in their hands. But every single one of them had the Holy Spirit of God in them revealing Jesus Christ. The Word was alive in them!
I am sorry if I came across as offensive to anyone in here. I genuinely desire that the Lord Jesus would be glorified in us and nothing else. I don't want to be right, I want God to reveal His righteousness. I pray in the name of Jesus that God would have His way and give us His wisdom regarding unity in His Spirit.
E
You are referring to passages in Scripture where Jesus is talking to a multitude of unbelieving people. Jesus is teaching people who have (for the most part) not heard the truth. Once we become Christians the way we respond to these things change. If a "so called" Christian would still do these things then did they actually receive Christ or are they just "playing the game".
Major difference because the person who would do either of those never had true saving faith. So therefore, correct they won't enter into heavens gates.
So we can still see that it's faith that saves us. The more you say the more you add to salvation which is way apposed to the true Gospel of Christ.
Salvation for the true believer in Christ rests solely on faith in Christ. Someone who has a "false faith" in Christ will do anything to add to salvation to try and "work" their way into heaven. So far you have added baptism, forgiveness and testifying to others to a list of things needed for salvation.
Major difference because the person who would do either of those never had true saving faith. So therefore, correct they won't enter into heavens gates.
So we can still see that it's faith that saves us. The more you say the more you add to salvation which is way apposed to the true Gospel of Christ.
Salvation for the true believer in Christ rests solely on faith in Christ. Someone who has a "false faith" in Christ will do anything to add to salvation to try and "work" their way into heaven. So far you have added baptism, forgiveness and testifying to others to a list of things needed for salvation.
Keep in mind that those apostles, including Peter, didn't get the big picture until beginning at Pentecost, except for saying to Jesus "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." before Jesus' cross, which was most highly significant. But that confession was not a license to give Peter complete approval of God for all he said or did.
Peter eventually caught on fully after such training, but it took years to accomplish, just like the rest of us.
So we should be cautious about some of Peter's doctrines.
Paul got the big picture first, even though not having walked with Jesus in the flesh like Peter. Peter came into agreement over what Paul had to say about it all with 2 Peter 3:14-17 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Disciples of Christ must not take any one scripture reference against another. It all must fit like two shoes. If one doesn't fit with the other, both are wrong. It wouldn't make sense to wear one of a pair that does fit a foot, doing without a shoe on the other foot. You go shopping again. Peter approved of Paul's writings. Paul made it clear God didn't call that apostle to water baptize people.
Why do some of you persist in not dealing with that?
Peter eventually caught on fully after such training, but it took years to accomplish, just like the rest of us.
So we should be cautious about some of Peter's doctrines.
Paul got the big picture first, even though not having walked with Jesus in the flesh like Peter. Peter came into agreement over what Paul had to say about it all with 2 Peter 3:14-17 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Disciples of Christ must not take any one scripture reference against another. It all must fit like two shoes. If one doesn't fit with the other, both are wrong. It wouldn't make sense to wear one of a pair that does fit a foot, doing without a shoe on the other foot. You go shopping again. Peter approved of Paul's writings. Paul made it clear God didn't call that apostle to water baptize people.
Why do some of you persist in not dealing with that?
Before answering also be thinking about why God let Paul disobey Jesus' apparent commandment to baptize in water according to what is being said here over and over?
1 Corinthians 1:14-18 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Was Paul disobedient?
1 Corinthians 1:14-18 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Was Paul disobedient?
You don't know your Greek, βαπτισθήτω is of the Aorist Imperative, it is a command, it is passive (actually middle) and third person for a reason, Peter is telling "all of them" to "repent", (second person plural) and submit to baptism by baptizing each other (hence third person singular) "ἕκαστος every one of you" (singular)
and IF THEY ALL DO, they "shall receive the gift" (future, Middle Deponent, Indicative, second person plural)
and IF THEY ALL DO, they "shall receive the gift" (future, Middle Deponent, Indicative, second person plural)