Does being left behind during the rapture mean you're eternally condemned

[Ahwatukee]

Because God rebukes the fly away theory in Ezekiel 13, that reveals just how much of a deceptive doctrine it would be in the last days.

God's Word 'as written' is what should make your faith stronger, not a doctrine of men like the pre-trib rapture theory. The proper way to study God's Word is to allow It to interpret Itself, thus allowing God Himself to speak. But what you've been wrongly taught to do is first trust in a doctrine men devised, and then go look in God's Word for proof of it. And then that kind of operates upon your mind like how blind love does.

You should take your own advice and let scripture interpret scripture! For Scripture states that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer wrath and that Jesus rescues us from that coming wrath, keeping us out of it. One of your errors is your definition of God's wrath, which is not just restricted to the day when Christ returns, but are the events leading up to Christ's return which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Another error is not understanding the severity and magnitude of the coming wrath. Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, any and all wrath! Therefore, it would not be in God's nature to leave His church here on earth when Christ already suffered for that wrath. The severity of the coming wrath is also why believers will not be here to be exposed to it.

All that you and others do is misapply scripture.

 

[DP]

Hello Brother, Here is my understanding of salvation in the Church age (Age of Grace ) as opposed to non-Church Age salvation.

Old Testament believers had to keep the commandments as evidence of their faith in a coming redeemer. The sacrifices they performed at the Temple were not sufficient in and of themselves to set aside their sins. They also had to believe those sacrifices represented the coming Messiah.

That only shows another one of the deceptions of men you've bought into. You are suggesting that Old Testament Scripture does not have anything to do with Christ's Church and events for the very end of this world. Sounds like you've also been taught the lie that everything written in the Old Testament Books have already been fulfilled. What a huge mistake you make listening to those false prophets.

 

[DP]

You should take your own advice and let scripture interpret scripture! For Scripture states that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer wrath and that Jesus rescues us from that coming wrath, keeping us out of it. One of your errors is your definition of God's wrath, which is not just restricted to the day when Christ returns, but are the events leading up to Christ's return which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Another error is not understanding the severity and magnitude of the coming wrath. Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, any and all wrath! Therefore, it would not be in God's nature to leave His church here on earth when Christ already suffered for that wrath. The severity of the coming wrath is also why believers will not be here to be exposed to it.

All that you and others do is misapply scripture.

Line upon line, allowing God's Word to interpret God's Word is EXACTLY how I study His Word, you white-washed wall!

Why don't you TRY and disprove what I showed of when the "day of the Lord" happens per Apostles Paul and Peter??? You keep saying the "day of the Lord" will happen PRIOR to the tribulation, but you never give ANY Scripture proof of it, showing how you like to tell LIES.

 

[Flip]

Because God rebukes the fly away theory in Ezekiel 13, that reveals just how much of a deceptive doctrine it would be in the last days.

God's Word 'as written' is what should make your faith stronger, not a doctrine of men like the pre-trib rapture theory. The proper way to study God's Word is to allow It to interpret Itself, thus allowing God Himself to speak. But what you've been wrongly taught to do is first trust in a doctrine men devised, and then go look in God's Word for proof of it. And then that kind of operates upon your mind like how blind love does.

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Ezk 13, does nothing of the sort against the Pre-Trib position. You think that chapter backs you up concerning false teaching, but it is YOU it is speaking to. I was post-trib for over 5 years when I first became saved. About 3 years into my belief, I bought an Audio KJV Bible made for blind folks to learn the Bible. I began to listen everyday 6+ hours each day, everyday. I could go through the Bible every 10 days, over & over & over & over & over & over, hearing it so that my mind could hear it in context.

As I did this for about 2.5 years I began to learn and see problems in my post-trib belief. It did not match up to what the Bible was saying. I began to doubt what I had be taught my all of my post-trib teachers. About 8 of 'em. One of the first teachers I ever listened to and saw at his Church teaching was Dr. Walter Martin. I learn my basic Christian doctrines from him. He was post-trib. His book " Kingdom of the Cults" is a classic on Cults and every Christian worth his salt, should have a copy and learn it to be able to defend themselves against any cult you come against. Look up on google, Dr. Walter Martin.

Anyway as I went through my Audio Bible, I began to see Big problems in my post-trib view. I wrote down the problems and asked each teachers in my area that I saw weekly, how to fix the problems in the post-trib view. Not one of them could fix them.

So, my doubts became much more concerning to me and I had to start searching to see if any other teachings did answer these problems. I kept noticing that the Bible seemed to show that the Church would be removed before the Wrath of GOD and the Time of Jacob's trouble before it started. I then went to a library as the internet did not exist in 1980's. I got some books on various 2nd coming beliefs of the 2nd coming and the Rapture.

The one persuasion I found to match what I'd been hearing in my Audio KJV was the Pre-Trib view. It matched all of the verses I was hearing and removed the doubts I had on the Rapture. I was ready to give up on any Rapture. It restored my belief in a "Rapture" and it proved to me that it is PRE-TRIB. So, anything you try to use to show I'm wrong is nothing but your major misunderstanding & misuse of the WORD OF GOD and what it actually says.

I used to use all the same verses you present each time I read your lies. Yes, I call them lies because that's what they are.

Your belief is full of problems that you and others like you refuse to see or acknowledge. I do understand your view because I once held it very stongly. I fought for the post-trib view the same way you do now but hearing the WORD OF GOD as Paul tells us to do in Romans 10:17 changed my way of seeing what men taught. I bought the Audio to increase my Faith, but it had other side effects like showing me doctrines correctly.

And it also confirmed those that were teaching the Pre-Trib catching away to be what the Bible actually says. It does not say it in one verse like you folks demand. It is a recipe you put together from several verses / chapters that all say the same thing separately and when compared and added together, they complete the doctrine as a whole. Making it very clear. The context of each of them say the same thing separately as they do together.

Their like car parts in a junk yard laying there in pieces. You can recognise that each piece fits to a certain car, and as you add each car piece to the others they build the car as a unit to make what the brand of car is. The Bible works like that as GOD has spread HIS Truth in HIS WORD so that only those led by the HOLY SPIRIT can see and put it together clearly. This is done to keep satan in the dark and to keep those who are not earnestly seeking GOD from seeing HIM. Yes, GOD does hide HIMSELF.

I'm very sorry for your mis-belief and the web of lies your caught in. I suggest you obtain an AUDIO KJV and start to learn the Bible in context as that's the way you hear it read to you. Alexander Scourby does an excellent job of reading the KJV to you. If you have any brains, you'll obtain one and listen. You can hear the New Testament in 3 days at 7 hours a day. Try it, you'll love it. 8/28/16

 

[PlainWord]

PlainWord , I'll tell you one thing you never think of or recognize. If the Pre-Trib View is a lie, then it is one of the best, helpful, lie I've ever seen. With us thinking the LORD return to pick us up suddenly with no warning at any moment, makes me want to learn the entire Bible as quickly as I can and to then reach out to others who don't know the LORD and it helps to make my faith stronger by the study that I do.

And if it does occur the way you think, it still does not hurt my faith because no one knows when the Rapture is to happen so no one should have any disappointment because they never had a date to worry about. And who can tell what tribulation is normal that the Church has had for 2000 years and what tribulation is in the Time of Jacob's Trouble. How we gonna know that this tribulation we go through is in the tribulation?

You won't know anything until the anti-christ has appeared and then we only have 3.5 years to wait for the 2nd coming. And we never knew the past 3.5 years was the Tribulation because we've always had it happening. Your logic is foolhardy and make no common sense.

But hearing the KJV in Audio 6+ hours every day of my life has taught me the LORD will remove us from the Wrath to come. Sorry for you. 8/28/16

Hey Flip,

Thanks for the response. You are correct in believing that a pre-trib rapture gives you a greater sense of urgency and fear to behave as if every day could be your last day on earth. This "fear" has been a big selling feature of those who preach Pre-trib. However, all good Christian are to live as if it is his/her last day because it could be. We never know when a heart attack might happen, or a car accident, etc. We are to walk like Jesus and obey God because we love Him, not out of fear.

You need to read this passage again from Rev 12 (Truncated for effect):

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.” [SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The "Woman" in the above is Israel.
"Those who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus" can only be Christians.

Ask yourself, who is Satan targeting in the above? God's people? Jews and Christians alike??

So, if you are Satan and have but a short time and have been cast to earth, who do you go after? What is your goal? Satan's goal has always been to be above God, right? I am sure that you are familiar with Isa 14?

[SUP]12 [/SUP]“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! [SUP]13 [/SUP]For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; [SUP]14 [/SUP]I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’

and he does this as Paul reminds us in 2 Thes 2:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

So what is the purpose of Satan doing this? He wants to get as many of us as he can to worship him, instead of God. Paul warns us to not be deceived by any means concerning when Christ returns in the above. Jesus warns us in Mat 24: “Take heed that no one deceives you." Deceive us concerning what?!?!?!?

Both Paul and Jesus warn of a "False Christ(s) Event." Right? We are told "Many will be deceived!!!" Non-believers who don't believe in the existence of God and His Son won't be deceived, they are deceived already. Satan already owns them. Satan doesn't need to deceive those he already has.

Satan is coming to deceive Believers into thinking that he is here for the rapture. He planted this lie in the church in 1830 and the idea has caught on, spread by Scofield, Moody, Haggee, LaHaye and many others. For Christians to be deceived into thinking Satan is Jesus, Satan has to come first. If Jesus comes before Satan as you believe, then none of us would be here to be deceived; we'd all be gone (Raptured). This is why Jesus warns us 3 times in Mat 24 about the false Christ(s) events. The false prophets are those spreading the lie. Prophet = Teacher.

In the end times (after 1830) false teachers will reverse the order Christ gives for His return. Paul tells us NOT TO BE DECEIVED. We should expect Satan to do something big USING DECEPTION in the last days to trip up as many Christians as he can. The Pre-Trib Rapture lie is it!!! Sad you can't see it. For nearly 200 years it hasn't mattered to those who died, but for those alive when Satan finishes his big play, it will cost you your life and shame.

This is how the Great Multitude ends up in Heaven. They are the ones who were deceived by Satan and his pre-trib lie. This is why they are "hungry, thirsty, ashamed and crying." You do know what the Biblical symbolism for being hungry and thirsty is, right? Saints in heaven are not literally hungry and thirsty.

 

[Talishi]

Hagee means well, he's just badly deceived. Never give out dates.

Not even Jesus gave out a specific day. What makes date-setters think they know more than Jesus?

 

[DP]

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Ezk 13, does nothing of the sort against the Pre-Trib position. You think that chapter backs you up concerning false teaching, but it is YOU it is speaking to. I was post-trib for over 5 years when I first became saved. About 3 years into my belief, I bought an Audio KJV Bible made for blind folks to learn the Bible. I began to listen everyday 6+ hours each day, everyday. I could go through the Bible every 10 days, over & over & over & over & over & over, hearing it so that my mind could hear it in context.
....

The Pre-trib Rapture 'fly away' doctrine is exactly... what Ezekiel 13 is about:

Ezek 13:2-5
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;

3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.

5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
KJV

The "day of the Lord" timing is at the very end of this world, it is the day of Jesus' 2nd coming. So this is about the last days, "to stand" (Hebrew 'amad), which is what Apostle Paul was talking about in Ephesians 6:13 that we are to make a 'stand' in the "evil day" (tribulation).

So the subject here of Ezekiel 13 is about the false prophets among God's people that go against that requirement for us to make that 'stand' in the last days, and instead they teach lies to make us think to escape.

Ezek 13:9-13
9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of My people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

10 Because, even because they have seduced My people, saying, "Peace"; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, "Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?"

13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in My fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in Mine anger, and great hailstones in My fury to consume it.
KJV

In the above God is warning the false prophets about their lies to His people, and the timing is pointing to the end of this world with His description of that coming destruction, for this "day of the Lord" has not happened yet.

Ezek 13:20-23
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV

Then His Message in bold red there is simply... irrefutable.

 

[PlainWord]

There are two resurrections. The first one each of us gets in our own time because it's when we come to Christ. Many know this first resurrection as becoming "born again." Either term, "first resurrection" or "born again" is fine. Christ was the firstfruits of all of us who are saved. Those of us who are saved are blessed because the second death has no power over us.

The second resurrection is the bodily resurrection for both the just and unjust. This happens on the last day and is followed by judgment.

SAVED: Birth into death (both physical and spiritual) > 1st resurrection (spiritual) > death (physical) > 2nd resurrection (physical). ONE DEATH, TWO RESURRECTIONS

UNSAVED: Birth into death (both physical and spiritual) > death (physical) > 2nd resurrection (physical) . 2nd death (spiritual). TWO DEATHS, ONE RESURRECTION

There are no more resurrections than these two. There are no multiple parts to the resurrection either.

 

[popeye]

There are two resurrections. The first one each of us gets in our own time because it's when we come to Christ. Many know this first resurrection as becoming "born again." Either term, "first resurrection" or "born again" is fine. Christ was the firstfruits of all of us who are saved. Those of us who are saved are blessed because the second death has no power over us.

The second resurrection is the bodily resurrection for both the just and unjust. This happens on the last day and is followed by judgment.

SAVED: Birth into death (both physical and spiritual) > 1st resurrection (spiritual) > death (physical) > 2nd resurrection (physical). ONE DEATH, TWO RESURRECTIONS

UNSAVED: Birth into death (both physical and spiritual) > death (physical) > 2nd resurrection (physical) . 2nd death (spiritual). TWO DEATHS, ONE RESURRECTION

There are no more resurrections than these two. There are no multiple parts to the resurrection either.

Except for 1 thes 4 " the DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE.."

THE TWO WITNESSES

AMD THE INNUMERABLE NUMBER OF MARTYRS.

 

[laughingheart]

I bring everything back to what I know of the character of God. I believe we have to tread humbly in our assertions. I think most of us, when we get home, will be like "Oh that's what you meant!!! I did not get that!".
What I would say is that God is just. Nothing unjust will happen. He is love and He is holy. Within the framework of his character is the truth. How that will play out, even with scripture, we see so dimly. Trust that God's ways are good and no one that is His will be left.

 

[popeye]

I bring everything back to what I know of the character of God. I believe we have to tread humbly in our assertions. I think most of us, when we get home, will be like "Oh that's what you meant!!! I did not get that!".
What I would say is that God is just. Nothing unjust will happen. He is love and He is holy. Within the framework of his character is the truth. How that will play out, even with scripture, we see so dimly. Trust that God's ways are good and no one that is His will be left.

End times study is illuminated once God's purpose is discovered.

If we run with " our verses" we will,at some point veer into some exclusive doctrine. If we run with GOD ( Jesus) alongside PURPOSE, we enjoy Heavens rhythm and heartbeat.

Without the Holy Spirit illuminating and guiding there is no surety.
Men will continue to bring God's word into their deal.

Only Jesus can not be deceived. Fickle man will always carry with him to potential to muddy up the things of God,and his word.

John did not wonder if his encounter was some fake mind deception. HE KNEW what he saw.

God AUTHENTICATES his word and testimony,and presence.

It is like crack in a bell or a loose guitar string. They are distinct in CORRUPTION. Only a skilled hand can tune or " remove corruption".
When you walk into a house where fish is cooking,you don't have to ask what is for supper. DISCERNMENT rules. But it is discerned through EXPERIENCE. The nose becomes a trained tool. An accurate tool.

There is a guarantee against the powerful last days deception. A rock solid guarantee. Accurate beyond human ability.

It is the person of Jesus. He cannot be deceived.

The truth is not contained in him.
HE IS TRUTH. TRUTH IS A PERSON

Only those walking with him are safe.

Only those like John can hear his heartbeat.
That is a side benefit of laying our heads on his breast and pressing our ears to hear that heartbeat.

Those are the teachers that get my ear.

The bible confirms what we hear in heaven.

Is anyone going to heaven for daily bread?. That is where we learn the voice of the shepherd.
We learn his distinct voice,not cliche or phrases or cunning codes of men.

 

[laughingheart]

Hi Popeye. What you say is very true. My point is to interpret everything through the filter of the character of God. If something does not match up with his Holiness, justice and love then it must be questioned. My other point was to say that we must walk in humility when we seek to make any statements pertaining to God, the Holy Wild, his plans and purposes. The early Jews thought they knew how the messiah would take control and how he would use his power. They had no ability to understand him as a lamb for the slaughter as opposed to the earthly vision of a powerful ruler. I am saying that we are limited in our understanding. Through God's Holy Spirit all things can be made clear but what He chooses fro us to know and comprehend is His decision alone. We need to be humble and listening. Thank you so much for sharing.

 

[PlainWord]

Except for 1 thes 4 " the DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE.."

THE TWO WITNESSES

AMD THE INNUMERABLE NUMBER OF MARTYRS.

The 1 Thes 4 resurrection is the 2nd resurrection. All physically dead but spiritually alive believers come back on the last day to get their new incorruptible bodies. Can't wait for mine.

The two witnesses are part of the 1 Thes 4 resurrection too. They are dead for just 3.5 days, although it could be 3.5 years based on the day=year principle. In any event when they are killed, their souls go to heaven with everyone else who died physically and they return with everyone else in the 1 Thes 4 second resurrection.

As for the martyrs, it doesn't matter how they died, does it? ALL THREE of these groups you cite were part of the first resurrection when they came to Christ. That's why their souls are in heaven after they die. They all come back together in the second resurrection at the last day. This is the only physical resurrection that anyone has except for Christ since He was firstfruits of both the 1st and 2nd resurrections.

Please note, you will not find anyone in heaven discussed who has a new incorruptible body, except for Jesus. Any time a dead believer is mentioned in heaven, they are called souls if anything. That should be a pretty big clue for you about the strength of your pre-trib theory.

 

[PlainWord]

As I've been saying. If one understands the two resurrections, one would never be a pre-trib rapture believer. The subject really isn't that complicated, it just takes a little study. The best place to read is the Book of John.

There are just two resurrections, the spiritual and the physical in that order!!

There are no parts to either resurrection, there is just one of each.

The spiritual resurrection is variable. It comes to each of us the moment we are "born again." This is why Paul says in 1 Cor 15: [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order:

The second resurrection (the physical one) comes on the "last day" as Jesus Himself tells us repeatedly in the Book of John. Paul also discusses this in 1 Cor 15: afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

The end is the end. There is no more Great Tribulation or regular tribulation after the end. We see that the end is when Christ delivers the Kingdom to the Father and all human rule is over. Therefore the GT has to be over too, long before this happens.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Revelations is a very confusing book and I don't remember reading anything about this particular subject. My mother says that being left behind in the rapture doesn't mean eternal damnation, and you can still accept Jesus and go to Heaven when you die. I do remember seeing in Revelations about how even after everything goes down, there will still be men who don't believe in Christ. I suppose that also means that there will be men who do believe in Christ after this, but could these men still get to Heaven when they died?

God would not send the two witnesses for no reason at all.

 

[PlainWord]

God would not send the two witnesses for no reason at all.

Do you know who the witnesses are? John takes this symbolism from Zech 4.

Hint: They are NOT two fire breathing men who get killed by a beast which crawls up from the bottomless pit as some on here would have you believe.

 

[Preacha24-7]

First of all you don't know what you're talking about. The people who are left behind are those people who haven't been born again. The Rapture is real. The people who haven't received Jesus have one more chance and if they deny Christ they gonna burn in hell. Don't listen to Satan he's a liar. Purgatory is a lie made up by the Catholics. Once you die that's it. Hebrews9:27 The Rapture is real. 1Thess4:15-18
Study God's Word and stop believing false doctrines. To God be the glory. Preacha24-7

 

[PlainWord]

First of all you don't know what you're talking about. The people who are left behind are those people who haven't been born again. The Rapture is real. The people who haven't received Jesus have one more chance and if they deny Christ they gonna burn in hell. Don't listen to Satan he's a liar. Purgatory is a lie made up by the Catholics. Once you die that's it. Hebrews9:27 The Rapture is real. 1Thess4:15-18
Study God's Word and stop believing false doctrines. To God be the glory. Preacha24-7

Sure, the rapture is real but it happens on the Last Day of this age just after the resurrection.

Everyone is going somewhere, but the only people "taken" forcefully and against their will are those who have been worshiping the beast and have received his mark. They are taken to the Body to be slain at Armageddon. This is a Biblical certainty, see Luke 17:37, Rev 16:16. This is also called the "Supper of the great God." See Rev 19:17-21. Trust me, we want to be left behind for this.

As far as the passage you are thinking of here:

[SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

You do NOT want to be the one taken, trust me. You have it backwards. You want to be the one left behind. Again, look where the taken are going. Read Luke's version. Jesus tells us where the taken go. Do you want to be taken and eaten by the birds? Not me.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Do you know who the witnesses are? John takes this symbolism from Zech 4.

Hint: They are NOT two fire breathing men who get killed by a beast which crawls up from the bottomless pit as some on here would have you believe.

Sometimes I listen to you and what I hear is - did God REALLY say that...?

 

[PlainWord]

Sometimes I listen to you and what I hear is - did God REALLY say that...?

What do you mean? You actually think real fire-breathing dragon like men are going to be torching their enemies? If you think that I've got a few bridges for sale.