Does being left behind during the rapture mean you're eternally condemned

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Dec 12, 2013
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God gave all his prophets and the writers of the books of the Bible some leeway in which words to choose. Otherwise, the writing styles and words of every book would be the same, which they are not.

If God was DICTATING the words, it would kind of be like automatic writing - which is occultic. God respected the ability of the people he chose to write the Bible, that they would pick the appropriate words to convey the right meaning, which he inspired them to write.
While I agree God allowed their style still have to question...Every word of God is inspired<-----what does inspired mean....? Holy men wrote as they were moved by the spirit....Paul, was taught by direct revelation.....is it that Paul chose the word or did God inspire Paul to use that word and is there a difference?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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While I agree God allowed their style still have to question...Every word of God is inspired<-----what does inspired mean....? Holy men wrote as they were moved by the spirit....Paul, was taught by direct revelation.....is it that Paul chose the word or did God inspire Paul to use that word and is there a difference?
As I said, if God was inspiring each and every word, then each book would have the same style, vocabulary, syntax, etc, etc. Since they do not, it seems more likely to me that God inspired the author to write the message, while allowing the authors the freedom to use which words they wanted.

However, since the authors were men of prayer, I would imagine they walked very close to God, and thus were in touch with God's purpose, intent and reasons for what he wrote.

Textual criticism (lower) means being able to analyze each word, each phrase, verse, and passage. Pauline epistles have much in common. However, there are even some differences, which can be accounted for by an amanuensis which Paul seems to have used as he got older, and his eyesight got worse. Even the amanuensis had some liberty in what they wrote.

And yes, the Bible is inspired. I do take it's word, always remembering context!
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
This is for purgedconscience, who asked me to provide more evidence for the word "apantesin" meaning "meet and return" as opposed to "meet .... and then go to heaven," in 1 Thess. 4:17

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 ESV

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

First, it is the believers that "meet and return" at the second coming. We return to earth with Jesus. Here is what The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament by Cleon L. Rogers Jr & Cleon L. Rogers III says.

"Apantesis - meeting. (Noun, not an infinitive as most translations make this word to be!)

The word had a technical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to the cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who went out from the city and would then ceremonially escort him back to the city."

So Paul, who knew his Greek, picked this word, instead of something else, because he knew it meant that we would meet the highest dignitary of all, Jesus Christ, and then ESCORT HIM BACK TO EARTH!

This word only occurs in four places in the Bible. The other three occurrences are as following.

"Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom" Matt. 25:1

ότε ὁμοιωθήσεται ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν δέκα παρθένοις, αἵτινες λαβοῦσαι τὰς λαμπάδας ἑαυτῶν ἐξῆλθον εἰς ὑπάντησιν τοῦ νυμφίου." Matt 25:1

The word ὑπάντησιν or upantesiv here is an alternate for apantesin, meaning "meeting" Rogers and Rogers add the following to this word. In this case, the bride is the honoured guest, who the bridegroom goes out to meet and bring back.

"This represents the betrothal, then the marriage. The bridegroom, accompanied by his friends went to meet fetch the bride from her father's house and brought her back in procession to his own house, where the marriage feast was held."

A few verses later the same word is used in verse 6. Here, the virgins are the ones who come out to meet the honoured guest, who is the bridegroom. Then they go back in with him. Meet and go back, again!

"But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’[SUP]9 [/SUP]But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’[SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.[SUP]11 [/SUP]Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’[SUP]12 [/SUP]But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’[SUP]13 [/SUP]Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." Matt 25:6-13

"μέσης δὲ νυκτὸς κραυγὴ γέγονεν· Ἰδοὺ ὁ νυμφίος, ἐξέρχεσθε εἰς ἀπάντησιν αὐτοῦ." Matt 25:6 Greek

This final example is when Paul arrived in Rome, a deputation came to meet him at the Forum of Appius. Then they accompanied him back to Rome, as verse 16 says. In other words, they met the famous Paul and went back with him to Rome.

"And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage. And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who guarded him." Acts 28:15-16 ESV

"κἀκεῖθεν οἱ ἀδελφοὶ ἀκούσαντες τὰ περὶ ἡμῶν ἦλθαν εἰς ἀπάντησιν ἡμῖν ἄχρι Ἀππίου Φόρου καὶ Τριῶν Ταβερνῶν, οὓς ἰδὼν ὁ Παῦλος εὐχαριστήσας τῷ θεῷ ἔλαβε θάρσος." Acts 28:15 Greek
IMO, we do no injustice to ἀπάντησιν if we have to stop for a 7 year wedding banquet and party and come back with Him as his bride after the tribulation.:cool:
 
I

Is

Guest
There were heresies (or at least controversies) among the early church leaders. For instance, Origen, believed in a Universalist type of salvation, even including satan. He also had a hierarchical view of the Trinity rather than the equality of the F, the S and the HS.

Origen and universalism, Origenist controversy in the early church, universalism and first principles, de principii, ultimate restoration of souls, platonism, salvation of all, can satan be saved?

Origen: Model or Heretic? | Christian History

This is a link to the passage about Irenaeus:

What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture? | Beginning And End

It’s understandable how the pretribs took I Thessalonians 4 (being “caught up”) to refer to the pretrib rapture, with one of the top early church leaders teaching being “caught up” before the tribulation (or at least pre-wrath). However, IMO, Irenaeus mis-interpreted I Thess. 4.



Notice that Paul said, “that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord….” How can Paul be alive at the time of the pretrib rapture? Most pretribs probably think that Paul made a mistake and thought the second coming of Christ would come in his lifetime. I have my own ideas, but basically I believe that there will be the first resurrection when Christ returns to earth (“thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”), the final millenium, and then the final resurrection to eternal heaven.
There were heresies (or at least controversies) among the early church leaders. For instance, Origen, believed in a Universalist type of salvation, even including satan. He also had a hierarchical view of the Trinity rather than the equality of the F, the S and the HS.
And? Does the fact about Origen annul the beliefs of the others since he believed in a pre-trib rapture as they did?
 
I

Is

Guest
We are definitely told explicitly not to try to determine the day and the hour! However Jesus' own words tell us that the purpose of the Matthew chapter 24 discourse is to help us discern the signs of the times.

My assessment is very consistent with that purpose. Those, like Harold Camping and Joseph Smith who tried to predict a specific day were certainly not paying due regard to Scripture.

The signs of the times that Jesus told believers to watch for do seem to set an outside limit.

As I have stated, this outside limit is totally dependent on my being correct that the fig tree in Matt 24:32 refers to the rebirth of Israel; and my taking 70 years as a generation. I am definitely NOT persuaded of my own infallibility!

However if my assumptions are correct; then we would do well to prepare ourselves for His immanent return.

If my assumptions are incorrect then absolutely no harm has been done.

I certainly do NOT expect anyone to make fiscal or material decisions based on my assumptions!
I certainly do NOT expect anyone to make fiscal or material decisions based on my assumptions!
That's just the problem marcR, people have done that very thing in the past. What if a person weak in their faith read it and it scared them so bad they killed themselves?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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That's just the problem marcR, people have done that very thing in the past. What if a person weak in their faith read it and it scared them so bad they killed themselves?
I don't feel led to base my words or my actions on speculative 'WHAT IF?" suppositions.

That is NOT God's plan for my life!
 
I

Is

Guest
I don't feel led to base my words or my actions on speculative 'WHAT IF?" suppositions.

That is NOT God's plan for my life!
Then it is obvious you don't see yourself "as your brothers keeper".
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Then it is obvious you don't see yourself "as your brothers keeper".
I don't see how that follows! I am very concerned about how my words and actions effect others! I am not going to address WHAT IFs; because the possibilities are unfathomable!
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Then it is obvious you don't see yourself "as your brothers keeper".
If someone is going to respond inappropriately to what I say, that is not and cannot be my responsibility!; because that could happen regardless what I say---and I am not ready to stop sharing my thoughts.
 
P

popeye

Guest
I was baptized in a pre-trib rapture believing church. I never accepted that teaching because it’s probably a fabrication. It’s a little like M. Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles setting up Heaven’s Gate in Waldport, OR and then later in Colorado before moving to their final destination, San Diego – Rancho Santa Fe from 1995 to 1997.

Heaven’s Gate – Ascent to madness, Part 1 - SkepticReport



The pre-trib rapture idea probably gained a lot of adherents who had suffered through the economic depression of the 1930’s followed immediately by wwII in the first half of the 1940’s. Bible teachers manipulated scripture to set up a pre-trib rapture that would avoid “global armageddon” – similar to the motivation of the Heavens Gate group.

So it’s important to make sure not to be deceived by a “strong delusion.” In the 1980’s the pre-trib rapture idea was very strong, being promoted by very popular evangelists such as Jimmy Swaggart. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead his disciples into all truth: (John 16:13)
The word of God testifies against this nonsence big time. The bible is free online. You have no excuse for omitting the gathering of the bride by the groom.
 
P

popeye

Guest
This is for purgedconscience, who asked me to provide more evidence for the word "apantesin" meaning "meet and return" as opposed to "meet .... and then go to heaven," in 1 Thess. 4:17

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 ESV

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

First, it is the believers that "meet and return" at the second coming. We return to earth with Jesus. Here is what The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament by Cleon L. Rogers Jr & Cleon L. Rogers III says.

"Apantesis - meeting. (Noun, not an infinitive as most translations make this word to be!)

The word had a technical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to the cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who went out from the city and would then ceremonially escort him back to the city."

So Paul, who knew his Greek, picked this word, instead of something else, because he knew it meant that we would meet the highest dignitary of all, Jesus Christ, and then ESCORT HIM BACK TO EARTH!

This word only occurs in four places in the Bible. The other three occurrences are as following.

"Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom" Matt. 25:1

ότε ὁμοιωθήσεται ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν δέκα παρθένοις, αἵτινες λαβοῦσαι τὰς λαμπάδας ἑαυτῶν ἐξῆλθον εἰς ὑπάντησιν τοῦ νυμφίου." Matt 25:1

The word ὑπάντησιν or upantesiv here is an alternate for apantesin, meaning "meeting" Rogers and Rogers add the following to this word. In this case, the bride is the honoured guest, who the bridegroom goes out to meet and bring back.

"This represents the betrothal, then the marriage. The bridegroom, accompanied by his friends went to meet fetch the bride from her father's house and brought her back in procession to his own house, where the marriage feast was held."

A few verses later the same word is used in verse 6. Here, the virgins are the ones who come out to meet the honoured guest, who is the bridegroom. Then they go back in with him. Meet and go back, again!

"But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’[SUP]9 [/SUP]But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’[SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.[SUP]11 [/SUP]Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’[SUP]12 [/SUP]But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’[SUP]13 [/SUP]Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." Matt 25:6-13

"μέσης δὲ νυκτὸς κραυγὴ γέγονεν· Ἰδοὺ ὁ νυμφίος, ἐξέρχεσθε εἰς ἀπάντησιν αὐτοῦ." Matt 25:6 Greek

This final example is when Paul arrived in Rome, a deputation came to meet him at the Forum of Appius. Then they accompanied him back to Rome, as verse 16 says. In other words, they met the famous Paul and went back with him to Rome.

"And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage. And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who guarded him." Acts 28:15-16 ESV

"κἀκεῖθεν οἱ ἀδελφοὶ ἀκούσαντες τὰ περὶ ἡμῶν ἦλθαν εἰς ἀπάντησιν ἡμῖν ἄχρι Ἀππίου Φόρου καὶ Τριῶν Ταβερνῶν, οὓς ἰδὼν ὁ Παῦλος εὐχαριστήσας τῷ θεῷ ἔλαβε θάρσος." Acts 28:15 Greek
First, it is the believers that "meet and return" at the second coming. We return to earth with Jesus. Here is what The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament by Cleon L. Rogers Jr & Cleon L. Rogers III says.
There is absolutely NOTHING you posted that depicts a man made uturn in the sky for the saInts to mount riderless horses to go kill pple with the "groom"

Absolute non sense.

Jesus himself,at the last supper said "I go (to HEAVEN) to prepare a place for you

The jewish wedding on earth,has the groom build on to his FATHERS HOUSE, fetch his bride,and RETURN TO HIS FATHERS HOUSE.
 
P

popeye

Guest
Question to consider.....

How long ago did the concept of "rapture" start being taught?
iow,truth is second to age?

If this is foundational,then we must reject paul's correction of Peter.
(remember,peter said it first,so paul is cancelled huh?)

We also would need to embrace all early church heresay?

"first mention" = Infallibility?

But,nice try. (outside the word of God)
 
P

popeye

Guest
IMO, we do no injustice to ἀπάντησιν if we have to stop for a 7 year wedding banquet and party and come back with Him as his bride after the tribulation.:cool:
Of course.

It is always a train wreck when postribs attempt to reconcile no brainer pretrib verses. THEY CAN NOT DO IT HONESTLY.

You should see what they do to mat 25 (10 virgins).
 
P

popeye

Guest
kohenMatt Your right The popular idea is that those taken are raptured. Pre Trib believers seem to always quote Matthews version of this saying because it fits in with their beliefs, but Luke has an important detail missing from Matthew. After Jesus said about being taken and left behind his Disciples asked him where ie where are they taken. He replied where the body (Corpse) is the Eagles (Vultures in some translations) are gathered together. In revelation we are told that the birds are invited to feast on the corpses of the Antichrists army.
How many verses depict the righteous take first? 6?

How many do you have where they are not? 0?
 
P

popeye

Guest
"Left Behind" a series of fiction books, written by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins which made the New York Times Fiction best seller list and made a lot of money for the authors. It was then made into a bunch of fiction movies, making more money for this fiction account of end times.

So here is my challenge to you, Samual, put the word Rapture into the search engine for any reputable Bible translation, from KJV to ESV and more. Try Biblegateway, as there are many versions on there. You will not find the word "rapture" in any translation.

Then there is 1 Thess. 4:17 which I have dealt with over and over and over!

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess 4:17 ESV

"
ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

The words "to meet" are
ἀπάντησιν or apantesin in Greek. This word is only used three times in the New Testament, always when people meet someone AND RETURN. In other words, we are going to meet Jesus and return to earth with him. That is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

"
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." Hebrews 9:28

No rapture, not in the Bible. No one left behind, because we are returning with Jesus!

But I do think we need to have our lives in order and be following Christ before he returns. So instead of worrying about nonsense end times stuff, focus on living a Christ-like life, and sharing the gospel.
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Does this mean we are to jettison our bibles also?
 
Jan 31, 2015
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Matthew 25:10 says

while they went to buy oil the Bridegroom came and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding and the door was shut


Luke 12: 35 says

You yourselves be like men who wait for their Master when He will return from the wedding that when He comes and knocks they may open to Him immediately


The first event happens at Midnight (Matthew 25:6)
The second event happens at second watch or third watch (Luke 12:38)

From the above two verses it is clear that Christ comes as the Bridegroom to take the bride for wedding and then He will return from the wedding to take the rest
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
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iow,truth is second to age?

If this is foundational,then we must reject paul's correction of Peter.
(remember,peter said it first,so paul is cancelled huh?)

We also would need to embrace all early church heresay?

"first mention" = Infallibility?

But,nice try. (outside the word of God)
Did God teach about a rapture concept in the OT?
Did Jesus teach it?
Did the Disciples?
Did any early church fathers?
Or is this a newly developed doctrine over the last couple hundred years?
 
P

popeye

Guest
Did God teach about a rapture concept in the OT?
Did Jesus teach it?
Did the Disciples?
Did any early church fathers?
Or is this a newly developed doctrine over the last couple hundred years?
There are several catching aways in both testaments
 
P

popeye

Guest
Matthew 25:10 says

while they went to buy oil the Bridegroom came and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding and the door was shut


Luke 12: 35 says

You yourselves be like men who wait for their Master when He will return from the wedding that when He comes and knocks they may open to Him immediately


The first event happens at Midnight (Matthew 25:6)
The second event happens at second watch or third watch (Luke 12:38)

From the above two verses it is clear that Christ comes as the Bridegroom to take the bride for wedding and then He will return from the wedding to take the rest
No. It is a worldwide event. Not one time zone