Does God ever break His word to us?

[Gr8grace]

You osas folks deny this to your death. You say once you have it, it can never be lost or taken away.

Anyone that reads my posts know that I try to read the bible every day. And this morning I came across something that, the first few times I read, it meant little to me, but this morning realized it has great merit in this topic. Neat how His word does that, huh?

So I have always said you can backslide, as the bible tells us repeatedly, yet some deny, and have given several times my personal testimony of doing it myself, along with irrefutable evidence.
Yet some still sin daily and claim to be saved.

So tell me, does God ever break a promise?

No. There may be some blessings attached to the promise that are conditional and can be lost, but God never breaks His promises.

Not believing in eternal security won't "unsave" an individual, but the blessings for being faithful to His promise of salvation.............may and probably will be lost. They will have shame and loss of rewards for not remaining in the hope of Christ.

They are miserable men.....................they have lost their hope and confidence in Christ. They live by sight and not faith.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

you say conjecture, based on what? because its not written in the text he didn't? ok show me where its in the text he did... and if you cant you too are writing conjecture in your claim as well, by the way I didn't comment on this to get into the petty arguments many seem to like to get into, its all pride based, how about just trying to see the overall message here and not make so much effort to discredit someone elses words?

All you have is conjecture. No evidence.

I have the witness of history that reveals how ancient blood covenants were enacted (two parties walking between the pieces) and scriptural evidence that shows that's how GOD enacted blood covenants.

I'm not trying to discredit you, but merely prevent the propagation of a falsehood about blood covenants, and specifically the one in Genesis 15.

 

[phil36]

Suzerain treaties.

 

[phil112]

Yes..................

You did as I requested and I applaud you for that.
Let me tell you exactly what my state was in so that we're clear.
I did nothing but drink for weeks before that coma. Getting drunk didn't put me in the coma, running out of potassium did.
Doc told me I was maybe 1 or two days most away from dying.
Weeks of drinking, watching porn on the computer, just whatever I wanted to do. Weeks. No food, just whiskey. A prolonged period of sinning minute by minute.
AFTER the doc told me I almost died, he kept me in the hospital on an IV for 6 days and released me on the seventh. I came home, picked up the bottle, and a couple of days later lapsed into the coma.
Knowing that, will you still contend that I was saved thru all of that?
Do you believe that had I died I would have gone to heaven?

 

[phil36]

Sorry, but this is in no way factual. The evidence and the nature of blood covenants don't support this. It's pure conjecture.

Abraham cut the animals into pieces and laid them on the ground. Of course he walked between the pieces. That is the only way that blood covenants were made binding between two parties. If it had not been a blood covenant, then maybe you might have a point. But blood covenants were never unilateral. Both parties had to agree and indicate their assent by walking between the pieces (and possibly other things according to custom). Even Israel walked between the pieces when the old covenant was made at Sinai, even though it's not written in Exodus that that happened. The fact that Jeremiah mentions it centuries later indicates that this was common custom.

And I will give the men that have transgressed my covenant, which have not performed the words of the covenant which they had made before me, when they cut the calf in twain, and passed between the parts thereof, Jeremiah 34:18​

Furthermore, there were no conditions for Abraham to keep for the covenant to remain in force. The covenant was given by GOD as surety to Abram that he would indeed inherit the land (as Abram requested in Genesis 15:8).

The Suzerain treaty was a well known institution in the ancient near east. The episode with God and Abraham would not have been lost on either Abraham or his descendants.

In the ratifying of the treaty between say a King and a conquered people, both parties would have stood before the animal carcasses (usually sacrificed and placed with a pathway between the animal halves) and agreed that if they broke the agreement that they had made then what has been done to the animals be done to them. Then both parties would walk through the cut animal halves (thats a simple explanantion).

Abraham - when it came time to ratify the covenant, he arranged the animals and made the pathway. God then put Abraham into a deep sleep and God himself walked through the animals taking upon himself the obligations which He had promised Abraham.

This is significant, it was God alone who walked through the halves of the animals, therefore the oath is eternal (Just read Galatians 3). It is not dependant on Abraham. It is not lie the Mosaic covenant where both God and the people took an oath...I wil be your God ...If etc etc.

Get this wrong and you get the gospel wrong.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Suzerain treaty was a well known institution in the ancient near east. The episode with God and Abraham would not have been lost on either Abraham or his descendants.

In the ratifying of the treaty between say a King and a conquered people, both parties would have stood before the animal carcasses (usually sacrificed and placed with a pathway between the animal halves) and agreed that if they broke the agreement that they had made then what has been done to the animals be done to them. Then both parties would walk through the cut animal halves (thats a simple explanantion).

Abraham - when it came time to ratify the covenant, he arranged the animals and made the pathway. God then put Abraham into a deep sleep and God himself walked through the animals taking upon himself the obligations which He had promised Abraham.

This is significant, it was God alone who walked through the halves of the animals, therefore the oath is eternal (Just read Galatians 3). It is not dependant on Abraham. It is not lie the Mosaic covenant where both God and the people took an oath...I wil be your God ...If etc etc.

Get this wrong and you get the gospel wrong.

There is no evidence for this, only speculation. There were no conditions to the covenant beyond GOD's promise, so Abram was not bound to do anything.

Can any of you who insist Abram didn't walk through the pieces provide evidence of a blood covenant being performed by only one party?

 

[phil36]

There is no evidence for this, only speculation. There were no conditions to the covenant beyond GOD's promise, so Abram was not bound to do anything.

Can any of you who insist Abram didn't walk through the pieces provide evidence of a blood covenant being performed by only one party?

Certainly.


Genesis 15

8 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?”
9 So the Lord said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.”
10 Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half.11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away.
12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”
17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites,Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”

 

[FreeNChrist]

You did as I requested and I applaud you for that.
Let me tell you exactly what my state was in so that we're clear.
I did nothing but drink for weeks before that coma. Getting drunk didn't put me in the coma, running out of potassium did.
Doc told me I was maybe 1 or two days most away from dying.
Weeks of drinking, watching porn on the computer, just whatever I wanted to do. Weeks. No food, just whiskey. A prolonged period of sinning minute by minute.
AFTER the doc told me I almost died, he kept me in the hospital on an IV for 6 days and released me on the seventh. I came home, picked up the bottle, and a couple of days later lapsed into the coma.
Knowing that, will you still contend that I was saved thru all of that?
Do you believe that had I died I would have gone to heaven?

Christians can get caught up in the most egregious things you could imagine. Even worse than what you went through.

But, you went through it. And if you went into it with Christ, then Christ went through it with you. Do you think He abandons those who are His at the very times when they need Him the most??

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Certainly.


Genesis 15

8 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?”
9 So the Lord said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.”
10 Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half.11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away.
12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”
17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites,Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”

You're just playing games. You have no evidence. Using your logic one could say that Israel didn't pass between the pieces at Sinai. Just because something's not mentioned in the bible doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[phil36]

You're just playing games. You have no evidence. Using your logic one could say that Israel didn't pass between the pieces at Sinai. Just because something's not mentioned in the bible doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I think you would rather it be a works covenant which it is not. Fortunatley scripture nor church history agree with you. The evidence is simple, God put Abraham into a deep sleep...then God himself went through the animal halves. ...

Also, if we go by what you are trying to teach, then Galatians 3 etc etc makes no sense. Why do you find what the bible teaches and what the church has always believed so offensive?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I think you would rather it be a works covenant which it is not. Fortunatley scripture nor church history agree with you. The evidence is simple, God put Abraham into a deep sleep...then God himself went through the animal halves. ...

You must be really obtuse. There was only one condition to the covenant: GOD's promise to give the land to Abram's seed, i.e., Christ. Abraham was not required to do anything to keep the covenant in force.

Abram not passing between the pieces is just something you (or someone else) made up out of need to make the covenant be unconditional. It already was unconditional.

Can you provide evidence that blood covenants were ever enacted with only one party participating? I'm willing to be corrected if you are right. But I'm not going to sit back and let you blow smoke, and not challenge you.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Also, if we go by what you are trying to teach, then Galatians 3 etc etc makes no sense. Why do you find what the bible teaches and what the church has always believed so offensive?

What makes no sense is Abram asking GOD for surety that he would indeed receive the land as he had promised, and then GOD make a blood covenant with him promising to give the land to his descendants.

You can't explain that one.

 

[phil36]

What makes no sense is Abram asking GOD for surety that he would indeed receive the land as he had promised, and then GOD make a blood covenant with him promising to give the land to his descendants.

You can't explain that one.

lol I'll finish our conversation here. I'll stick with what the church (OT and NT) has always taught. Not HeRose's version.

 

[phil112]

Zechariah 11:6-11 "For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the Lord: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.

Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.

And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.

And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord."



Folks, when you break your agreement with God, He is no longer bound by it either. You broke it, and He allows it. When He honors your transgression, He makes that break official. God will break His vow. Don't keep screwing up.

 

[phil112]

Christians can get caught up in the most egregious things you could imagine. Even worse than what you went through.

But, you went through it. And if you went into it with Christ, then Christ went through it with you. Do you think He abandons those who are His at the very times when they need Him the most??

I'm simply at a loss for words...........read post 34.

 

[directline2iam]

If I can include myself in the "us" in your question, the truth is NO.
Who is the auther and finisher of our faith?
The biginning of our faith. The finishing of our faith. What are we between those two?
We are made perfect in His time, not ours. In our time, we can never measure up, we backslide and sinbut we rely.on Jesus to carry us when we fail.fails

 

[FreeNChrist]

Zechariah 11:6-11 "For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the Lord: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.

Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.

And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.

And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord."



Folks, when you break your agreement with God, He is no longer bound by it either. You broke it, and He allows it. When He honors your transgression, He makes that break official. God will break His vow. Don't keep screwing up.

"Why don't you step out of the old testament and come up to the new with the rest of us that depend on Christ's sacrifice for salvation?"

Sound familiar?

 

[phil112]

"Why don't you step out of the old testament and come up to the new with the rest of us that depend on Christ's sacrifice for salvation?"

Sound familiar?

You think that what God requires of us has changed across that time span?
I'm not advocating law. Simply demonstrating that what folks claim is a lie.
Altho new testament wording is different, God isn't. Many times we are told in the new, "strive so that you don't fail/fall".
Fail/fall from what to where? From salvation to being lost. Very clearly.
Those folks claim that God never goes back on His word. This passage very clearly proves that to be a lie. And God never changes, does He?
You break the covenant, He has the right to tear it up.
Stop sinning and have the mind of Christ. Stop looking for an excuse to sin. Stop saying "well, it's impossible to not sin". Christ said differently.
Don't tempt God, as I did, into tearing up your contract. You're unemployable and no one else is hiring anyway.

 

[phil112]

If I can include myself in the "us" in your question, the truth is NO.
Who is the auther and finisher of our faith?
The biginning of our faith. The finishing of our faith. What are we between those two?
We are made perfect in His time, not ours. In our time, we can never measure up, we backslide and sinbut we rely.on Jesus to carry us when we fail.fails

So you don't give a damn what scripture says. Got it.
You have no clue what backsliding is, do you? Go back to the old testament and look it up. Look at the destruction israel brought on itself by backsliding.
There is no sin in heaven. Period.
If you sin, you must repent before you can be saved.
Had I died in a coma, I would have gone to hell. Why? Because I had not repented of what I had been doing. I was a sinner, full of sin. God would never have allowed me entry.
Anyone that believes anything else is_________. You fill in the blank. Let's just say it ain't smart to believe something to be truth that the bible says is a lie.

 

[FreeNChrist]

You think that what God requires of us has changed across that time span?
I'm not advocating law. Simply demonstrating that what folks claim is a lie.
Altho new testament wording is different, God isn't. Many times we are told in the new, "strive so that you don't fail/fall".
Fail/fall from what to where? From salvation to being lost. Very clearly.
Those folks claim that God never goes back on His word. This passage very clearly proves that to be a lie. And God never changes, does He?
You break the covenant, He has the right to tear it up.
Stop sinning and have the mind of Christ. Stop looking for an excuse to sin. Stop saying "well, it's impossible to not sin". Christ said differently.
Don't tempt God, as I did, into tearing up your contract. You're unemployable and no one else is hiring anyway.

I think the Cross changed everything.

And apparently you do too, since that was a direct quote of yours.