Does Oneness theology (Modalism) teach a "sock puppet" view of God's nature?

[UnitedWithChrist]

You base the loving relationship as a proof of your Trinity but we also believe that during the Incarnation. How about the loving relationship of the Holy Spirit? Or the triple loving relationship?

How can you have love between a Being and his hand puppet, the flesh of Jesus, in your theology?

Yes, we believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons which eternally have lived in relationship.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The Father and the Spirit did not cease to exist because we did not believe that Jesus is only Son of God but also GOD who is the Spirit. We rather believe the Son is not eternal. In contrast, we more than believe the Father and Spirit continue to exist because Lord Jesus is now the Spirit and Father who hears our prayers(see 2 Corinthians 3:17, John 16:26-27)

You base the loving relationship as a proof of your Trinity but we also believe that during the Incarnation.
How about the loving relationship of the Holy Spirit? Or the triple loving relationship?

You do not believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God?

Where do you get that from?

And, if you believe that the Son is not eternal, then how can you claim he is God? One of the attributes of God is eternality. And, Jesus is the eternal son of God.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom

The Lord is the Spirit means the Spirit is YHVH. There is no contradiction here with Trinitarianism.

We believe the Father is YHVH, the Son is YHVH, and the Holy Spirit is YHVH. In particular, the Holy Spirit mediates the presence of Jesus in the believer, as well as the Father. This is possible because God is co-essential, sharing the same essence.

John 16:26-27 26 In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

I am not sure why you think these two verses proves anything concerning Oneness theology. It is simply saying that believers can now ask God the Father in Jesus' name for requests. How does that negate the Trinity doctrine? In fact, just about every Trinitarian prayer ends "in Jesus' name".

By the way, Scripture says Jesus intercedes with the Father on behalf of the saints, so I am not sure how you would explain that given your defective Oneness theology. I have already mentioned this, though.

And, if you really want to get into the other defective portions of Oneness theology, we could discuss how Oneness people believe that speaking in tongues is a requirement of salvation, and how you must be water baptized prior to salvation. Scripture clearly teaches that not all believers speak in tongues. Additionally, I am aware that many Oneness Pentecostals claim that healing is guaranteed if you have true faith, and if you aren't healed, in essence you don't have real faith. So, Oneness anti-Trinitarianism is only one of their defective theologies.

 

[just_truth]

You do not believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God?

Where do you get that from?

I believe NOT ONLY, but I believe Jesus is both Man(Son of God) and GOD(Father/Spirit).

And, if you really want to get into the other defective portions of Oneness theology, we could discuss how Oneness people believe that speaking in tongues is a requirement of salvation, and how you must be water baptized prior to salvation. Scripture clearly teaches that not all believers speak in tongues.

Speaking in tongues is not a requirement for salvation, it is only an initial sign of receiving the Holy Spirit.
Frankly speaking I never yet speaking in tongues but I already receive the Holy Spirit.

Additionally, I am aware that many Oneness Pentecostals claim that healing is guaranteed if you have true faith, and if you aren't healed, in essence you don't have real faith. So, Oneness anti-Trinitarianism is only one of their defective theologies.

I am only a member of Oneness Pentecostal, I am not aware such kind of doctrine forcing anyone to be healed.

 

[just_truth]

I am not sure why you think these two verses proves anything concerning Oneness theology. It is simply saying that believers can now ask God the Father in Jesus' name for requests. How does that negate the Trinity doctrine? In fact, just about every Trinitarian prayer ends "in Jesus' name".

By the way, Scripture says Jesus intercedes with us the Father on behalf of the saints, so I am not sure how you would explain that given your defective Oneness theology. I have already mentioned this, though.

READ CAREFULLY WHAT IS WRITTEN IN John 16:26-27...
"In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God."

As you said Jesus intercede/meditate with us is simply saying that believers can now ask God the Father in Jesus' name for requests.
The role of mediatrix is to ask a favor to higher to someone subordinate is requesting, but this time Jesus said and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf... Father himself loves you, because you have loved me.

AGAIN AND AGAIN ASKING THIS QUESTION TO YOU..."How about the loving relationship of the Holy Spirit? Or the triple loving relationship OF THREE PERSONS?

 

[just_truth]

It is simply saying that believers can now ask God the Father in Jesus' name for requests. How does that negate the Trinity doctrine? In fact, just about every Trinitarian prayer ends "in Jesus' name".

By the way, Scripture says Jesus intercedes with the Father on behalf of the saints, so I am not sure how you would explain that given your defective Oneness theology. I have already mentioned this, though.

And, if you really want to get into the other defective portions of Oneness theology, we could discuss how Oneness people believe that speaking in tongues is a requirement of salvation, and how you must be water baptized prior to salvation. Scripture clearly teaches that not all believers speak in tongues. Additionally, I am aware that many Oneness Pentecostals claim that healing is guaranteed if you have true faith, and if you aren't healed, in essence you don't have real faith. So, Oneness anti-Trinitarianism is only one of their defective theologies.

READ CAREFULLY WHAT IS WRITTEN IN John 16:26-27...
"In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God."

As you said Jesus intercede/meditate with us is simply saying that believers can now ask God the Father in Jesus' name for requests.
The role of mediator is to ask a favor to higher from someone subordinate is requesting(as behalf?, but this time Jesus said "I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf... Father himself loves you, because you have loved me."
####################################################################################
AGAIN AND AGAIN ASKING THIS QUESTION TO YOU..."How about the loving relationship of the Holy Spirit? Or the triple loving relationship OF THREE PERSONS?

 

[just_truth]

How can you have love between a Being and his hand puppet, the flesh of Jesus, in your theology?

The manifestation of God is a great divine mystery, (see1 Timothy 3:16).
You falsely accuse us that our belief Oneness of God is only sock hand puppet. Definitely, a mere sock hand puppet is not a mystery and divine at all.

 

[just_truth]

New International Version
"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

New Living Translation
“I have spoken of these matters in figures of speech, but soon I will stop speaking figuratively and will tell you plainly all about the Father.

English Standard Version
“I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.

 

[just_truth]

...

New International Version
"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

New Living Translation
“I have spoken of these matters in figures of speech, but soon I will stop speaking figuratively and will tell you plainly all about the Father.

English Standard Version
“I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.

 

[just_truth]

You do not believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God?

Where do you get that from?

And, if you believe that the Son is not eternal, then how can you claim he is God? One of the attributes of God is eternality. And, Jesus is the eternal son of God.

The Book of Revelation reveals everything and it also reveals last about God in heaven, you cannot no longer found a term of Son of God, but only a Word of God (see Revelation 19:13).

Since now Jesus is God(Father), the book of Revelation tell us now about His sons...

King James Bible
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

New International Version
Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

THE SPIRIT(Holy Spirit) WHO IS SPEAKING HERE IS NO OTHER BUT JESUS.
"

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I believe NOT ONLY, but I believe Jesus is both Man(Son of God) and GOD(Father/Spirit).




Speaking in tongues is not a requirement for salvation, it is only an initial sign of receiving the Holy Spirit.
Frankly speaking I never yet speaking in tongues but I already receive the Holy Spirit.




I am only a member of Oneness Pentecostal, I am not aware such kind of doctrine forcing anyone to be healed.

What do you mean "forcing anyone to be healed"?

I was speaking about the claims of Word of Faith people that believers are entitled to healing from all physical conditions, and if they are not healed, it is because they lack faith. Is that what Oneness Pentecostals teach too? I was under the impression that is the typical belief, because I know a man from a Oneness Pentecostal family in the Philippines who believes this. Ironically, his father who is a Oneness Pentecostal just died of pneumonia, so apparnetly he didn't have this kind of faith.

Apparently you don't believe speaking in tongues is required for salvation or receipt of the Holy Spirit..good.

Concerning how Jesus is the Son of God:

The phrase "Son of God" means, primarily, that Jesus is the Messianic King of David's line.

The "Son of God" in Israelite terms means that this person represented God on earth. The human, Messianic King in a sense represented God on earth. For instance, Solomon and human kings are called "son of God" in this sense in

Secondarily, Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God, meaning that he was eternally begotten of the Father, but the primary meaning relates to the Messianic King, of which position Jesus occupies now.

2 Samuel 7:12-16 . 12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, 15 but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.’”

Psalms 2
1 Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”
10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

The Israelite king was considered the Son of God in this sense, with the ultimate fulfillment being Jesus.

By the way, "Son of Man" also has two meanings. "Son of Man" is the Messianic figure of Daniel 7:13-14. So, Son of Man was also a Messianic term. It could also refer to his humanity. I believe it translates, roughly, to "Son of Adam". He is the second Adam, who is not disobedient, unlike our father Adam.

And, Jesus could be a "father" in this sense too as he is the corporate head of all those who are redeemed. He represents them, like Adam represents the fallen men (Romans 5:12-19). Those who are unsaved are represented by Adam and his sin, death, and condemnation. Those who are saved are represented by Jesus and his righteousness, life, and justification/vindication.

But Jesus is not the Father in the sense of the Father of the Triune God. He is the Son, not the Father. As I have said, the interpersonal language used between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit would make the claim that there are no Persons within the Triune God to be incoherent.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The Book of Revelation reveals everything and it also reveals last about God in heaven, you cannot no longer found a term of Son of God, but only a Word of God (see Revelation 19:13).

Since now Jesus is God(Father), the book of Revelation tell us now about His sons...

King James Bible
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

New International Version
Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

THE SPIRIT(Holy Spirit) WHO IS SPEAKING HERE IS NO OTHER BUT JESUS.
"

I have no clue what you are saying.

Here's the verses I think you are referring to:

Revelation 21:1-6 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

So, Yahweh is the Alpha and Omega. Yahweh is the term for the Triune God. Yahweh could refer to the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. In these verses, Yahweh is saying that believers will be his adopted sons. It is true that believers are Yahweh's adopted sons. In one sense, you could say that Yahweh is an everlasting Father, and Jesus is Yahweh.

However, to say that Jesus is the Father is an error. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are Yahweh, but the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father, and the Holy Spirit is neither the Son or the Father.

 

[just_truth]

I have no clue what you are saying.

Here's the verses I think you are referring to:

Revelation 21:1-6 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Okay, actually I am referring to the Spirit of Jesus speaking to the Seven Churches.
Now let us read verse 5, there is only One sitting in the throne and only One speaking not three.
The One sits no other than Jesus sitting at the right hand of Power (see Mark 14:62).
Further, He is alone the Immortal ...

New International Version
Who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

English Standard Version
Who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

New King James Version
Who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

So, Yahweh is the Alpha and Omega. Yahweh is the term for the Triune God. Yahweh could refer to the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. In these verses, Yahweh is saying that believers will be his adopted sons. It is true that believers are Yahweh's adopted sons. In one sense, you could say that Yahweh is an everlasting Father, and Jesus is Yahweh.

Again, Yahweh is 'I AM" not "US or WE". Definitely a singular God and not triune.

However, to say that Jesus is the Father is an error. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are Yahweh, but the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father, and the Holy Spirit is neither the Son or the Father

.

It is clearly said in the Bible for many times that the Father is referring to God or God referring to the Father, but Trinitarians do not take it that scriptural statements, just to assert their Tri-god persons are all equal deities.
If Jesus is not a Father it would mean He is not God.

God(Father) is the Son in the flesh, the Holy Spirit is God in action who is now Jesus (see John 14:18, Revelation 2:7, and 2 Corinthians 3:17)

 

[just_truth]

.

Jesus Christ is the final overall consciousness of one God in three(Father/Son/Holy Spirit).

 

[Gregoryp]

Now does everyone understand why the majority of mankind are so cynical towards organised religion, which then unfortunately also leads them to perceive that either God is very weak and disorganised, or non existent? Its nonsense like this that has also put me off organised religion, so divided and fighting against each other, reminds me of the current riots going on around the world, divide and conquer. God loved the world so much that he sacrificed his only begotten son. Repent from sin, declare Jesus as your lord and saviour, and accept the gifts of mercy, grace, salvation and forgiveness . Amen, thats all that matters.

 

[just_truth]

.

In Hypostatic Union the union of the Divinity and humanity of Christ. is the Divinity of the Father is not included in the union?

 

[just_truth]

..
.

In Hypostatic Union is the union of the Divinity and humanity of Christ.
Is the Divinity of the Father included in the union or not?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

In Hypostatic Union is the union of the Divinity and humanity of Christ.
Is the Divinity of the Father included in the union or not?

1. Jesus is glorified man.
2. Jesus is God (YHVH).
3. The three Persons of the one true God indwell one another. They share the same essence.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

So, there is an "I" and "me" here, and a "him" here. Two distinct Persons yet they mutually indwell one another.

You should be able to answer your own question given these three points.

I think you are trying to reason about spiritual things using carnal knowledge. The first and major hurdle you need to jump is the claim that interpersonal activity doesn't require two or more persons. Your claim is that one nature was talking to another nature when Jesus prayed. This claim is unproveable and is in fact ridiculous.

Like the cult I belonged to, apparently Oneness people have developed extensive answers to "difficult Scriptures" (ones that refute their worldview). Unfortunately such "rescue devices" keep the person trapped in false theology and it is almost impossible to penetrate their thinking. God allowed me to linger ten years in such a deceived state before he showed me that the Armstrongites were false teachers and that they have an alternate worldview which is full of holes.

Same type of procedure, different cultic group.

I hope you get there.

If you are a real believer I think God will show you their errors, but if you aren't, you'll continue stubbornly in them. You will absorb their alternate worldview and their distortion of church history, etcetera, and continue to think it is the "Truth" and that "trinitarians are ignorant and blind" and "they are all like Roman Catholics". This is the sort of language I was taught that caused me to be prideful and to deny the Trinity, based on the teachings of foolish, vain, prideful, ignorant (but convincing) old men like Herbert Armstrong.

 

[just_truth]

1. Jesus is glorified man.
2. Jesus is God (YHVH).
3. The three Persons of the one true God indwell one another. They share the same essence.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

So, there is an "I" and "me" here, and a "him" here. Two distinct Persons yet they mutually indwell one another.

You should be able to answer your own question given these three points.

I think you are trying to reason about spiritual things using carnal knowledge. The first and major hurdle you need to jump is the claim that interpersonal activity doesn't require two or more persons. Your claim is that one nature was talking to another nature when Jesus prayed. This claim is unproveable and is in fact ridiculous.

The two natures is also leads to the true distinction of the Father and Sons as two persons in actual Incarnation, but not lead to three or triple distinction of Godhead.

What ridiculous you are saying? If Christ praying does not prove his humanity then God manifestation in the flesh is fake and bogus.
-Jesus is a glorified man that's because His humanity needs glorification together with his Divinity(Father) since from Incarnation, as the Father be glorified in the Son(see John 14:13, John 12:23, John 12:28).
-Yes, Jesus is God Yahweh the Eternal I AM, definitely referring to his Divinity as One, not WE or US.
-One God is only One divine Spirit, the indwelling only possible between the two natures as the Father fully dwelt in the Son.
Never a three or triple indwelling of deities, and even no single scriptural support.

God allowed me to linger ten years in such a deceived state before he showed me that the Armstrongites were false teachers and that they have an alternate worldview which is full of holes.

Same type of procedure, different cultic group.

I hope you get there.

If you are a real believer I think God will show you their errors, but if you aren't, you'll continue stubbornly in them. You will absorb their alternate worldview and their distortion of church history, etcetera, and continue to think it is the "Truth" and that "trinitarians are ignorant and blind" and "they are all like Roman Catholics". This is the sort of language I was taught that caused me to be prideful and to deny the Trinity, based on the teachings of foolish, vain, prideful, ignorant (but convincing) old men like Herbert Armstrong.

I read before the publications of Herbert Armstong because it is a free subscription, I no longer update on their latest status.
I do not agree with some that are written on their publication but anyway it's free, when Armstrong died seems there's a doctrinal change of their church. I do not know much what are the changes they made, maybe you have more information.

I also read there about their doctrine of British/American Israelism. I read early Oneness Pentecostal elders believe also this doctrine.

 

[just_truth]

1. Jesus is glorified man.
2. Jesus is God (YHVH).
3. The three Persons of the one true God indwell one another. They share the same essence.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

So, there is an "I" and "me" here, and a "him" here. Two distinct Persons yet they mutually indwell one another.

You should be able to answer your own question given these three points.

I think you are trying to reason about spiritual things using carnal knowledge. The first and major hurdle you need to jump is the claim that interpersonal activity doesn't require two or more persons. Your claim is that one nature was talking to another nature when Jesus prayed. This claim is unproveable and is in fact ridiculous.

The two natures is also leads to the true distinction of the Father and Sons as for the meantime two persons in actual Incarnation, but if the distinction is between two deity/deities that is a clear polytheism.
Further, the indwelling of the natures does not lead to three or triple distinction of Godhead.

What ridiculous you are saying? If Christ praying does not prove his humanity then God manifestation in the flesh is fake and bogus.
-Jesus is a glorified man that's because His humanity needs glorification together with his Divinity(Father) since from Incarnation, as the Father be glorified in the Son(see John 14:13, John 12:23, John 12:28).
-Yes, Jesus is God Yahweh the Eternal I AM, definitely referring to his Divinity as One, not WE or US.
-One God is only One divine Spirit, the indwelling only possible between the two natures as the Father fully dwelt in the Son.
Never a three or triple indwelling of deities, and even no single scriptural support.

God allowed me to linger ten years in such a deceived state before he showed me that the Armstrongites were false teachers and that they have an alternate worldview which is full of holes.

Same type of procedure, different cultic group.

I hope you get there.

If you are a real believer I think God will show you their errors, but if you aren't, you'll continue stubbornly in them. You will absorb their alternate worldview and their distortion of church history, etcetera, and continue to think it is the "Truth" and that "trinitarians are ignorant and blind" and "they are all like Roman Catholics". This is the sort of language I was taught that caused me to be prideful and to deny the Trinity, based on the teachings of foolish, vain, prideful, ignorant (but convincing) old men like Herbert Armstrong.

I read before the publications of Herbert Armstong because it is a free subscription, I no longer update on their latest status.

I do not agree with some that are written on their publication but anyway it's free, when Armstrong died seems there's a doctrinal change of their church. I do not know much what are the changes they made, maybe you have more information.

I also read there about their doctrine of British/American Israelism. I read early Oneness Pentecostal elders believe also this doctrine.
.

 

[just_truth]

3. The three Persons of the one true God indwell one another. They share the same essence.

-One God is only One divine Spirit, the indwelling only possible between the two natures as the Father fully dwelt in the Son.
Never a three or triple indwelling of deities, and even no single scriptural support.

UnitedWithChrist how come the third person(H.S) of Trinity indwells to another two persons, while your doctrine teaches that H.S. is a separate person indwelling to the Believers?