Does the Ever-virginity of Mary Contradict Scripture?

[dscherck]

They do not get the fact that mary gave birth to the flesh of Christ. The flesh which suffered the same result of sin our flesh suffers (feels pain, gets old, is week, needs fed, Gets sick and dies) Which Christ had to have or he could not be like us, and he could not die or suffer anything.

Adam did not have any of these calamities until after he sinned. Sin is what brought death, And Christ had to suffer those things with us.

mary did not have to by Holy, because she did not give birth to God. She had a human body form in her, which God then entered after he was born. She gave birth to his flesh, not his being, His being was alive before this earth was even created (he even helped create it) He also created her.

until they realise these basic things, they will not realise they are following a pagan tradition handed down from the ages from babel, The names have changed and the terms have changed, but it is the same "mother of God" ritualistic belief handed down from babylon.

Still denying Jesus is God I see.
You're following an ancient Gnostic heresy. God didn't enter Jesus when Mary gave birth, Jesus was God from the very moment of conception. We can see that from the Scriptures! Notice how John the baptist leaped for joy in his mother's womb when Mary, still pregnant with Jesus, approached? Why would he do that if as you say, "She had a human body form in her, which God then entered after he was born"

Mary didn't just give birth to an empty vessel, she carried inside her a person, she gave birth to a person, not a thing. And that person IS God the Son.

 

[Grandpa]

Where are the prophecies that say that the Lord will be born from a perfect, holy, sinless woman? Where are the prophecies that say this woman will remain a virgin even in marriage?

I couldn't find any.

But what I did find in church history was a battle against paganism. In the gentile world, at the time of Jesus Christ, paganism reigned. The church fathers biggest battle was against paganism and the ideas paganism represented. And Christianity won, mostly. But what we find now is that paganism still lingers. Like an after taste or a film on everything. You see it in Christmas, Easter, and the oldest churches. The Catholic church won against paganism, but as outsiders can see, paganism didn't go away completely. Some of it still lingers in the Catholic "holy traditions".

Mother of God. Pagan idea. Praying to dead idols. Pagan idea. Building statues to worship. Pagan idea. Bowing down to idols. Pagan idea. There are probably many more that I don't know about.

What, exactly, is being cherished in these "holy traditions"? Looks like thinly veiled paganism to me.

Bowing down before images. Praying to the "mother of god".

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, what should we call it? I suppose we turn off our brains and call it what we are commanded to call it by the church that says only it can interpret scripture. How convenient for them. "The one true church of holy apostolic precession".......

Joshua 24
14Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[lil_christian]

Btw...the whole "until" thing? Saying that it doesn't prove anything? It does prove that Mary wasn't a virgin after she had her baby.

Compare these two sentences:

1. Joseph kept Mary a virgin UNTIL she had Jesus. (or, "knew her not until")

2. I did not eat my dessert UNTIL my dinner was finished.

Mary still had the typical marriage after she gave birth, and I still had my dessert after I had my main meal.

 

[dscherck]

Btw...the whole "until" thing? Saying that it doesn't prove anything? It does prove that Mary wasn't a virgin after she had her baby.

Compare these two sentences:

1. Joseph kept Mary a virgin UNTIL she had Jesus. (or, "knew her not until")

2. I did not eat my dessert UNTIL my dinner was finished.

Mary still had the typical marriage after she gave birth, and I still had my dessert after I had my main meal.

And Michal, the daughter of King Saul was childless UNTIL the day of her death.

And the tomb of Moses was lost UNTIL this very day.

So I guess Michal managed to have kids after her death, and we'll soon read about the discovery of Moses' tomb right?

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

They do not get the fact that mary gave birth to the flesh of Christ. The flesh which suffered the same result of sin our flesh suffers (feels pain, gets old, is week, needs fed, Gets sick and dies) Which Christ had to have or he could not be like us, and he could not die or suffer anything.

Adam did not have any of these calamities until after he sinned. Sin is what brought death, And Christ had to suffer those things with us.

mary did not have to by Holy, because she did not give birth to God. She had a human body form in her, which God then entered after he was born. She gave birth to his flesh, not his being, His being was alive before this earth was even created (he even helped create it) He also created her.

You just said that Christ was separately Man and God in this sentence,

" which God then entered after he was born"

This is heresy. The Humanity and Divinity of Jesus are never separated but are wholly united in one. I am afraid that you are committing the heresy of the Arians when you say this. The Arians taught that Mary only bore Jesus as flesh and that only later the Spirit of God took the place of Jesus' soul. But this is completely false since Jesus was never separated as a Divine and Human entity. He is light from light, true God from true God, never separated in 2 natures but united as One, The LOGOS of God. He is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Mary did not bear God the Father but God the Son, Who is of One Essence in Humanity and Divinity, even before the foundation of the world. You therefore greatly err saying that "God entered (Jesus) after He was born".

until they realise these basic things, they will not realise they are following a pagan tradition handed down from the ages from babel, The names have changed and the terms have changed, but it is the same "mother of God" ritualistic belief handed down from babylon.

Prove it. You and what Bishops? Who is the Bishop "overseer" who has appointed you as an authorized pastor or teacher? How can we take your word for it? Are you the "Ground and Pillar of the Truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)?



1Ti 1:5 Now the goal of the commandment is love out of a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,
1Ti 1:6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to futile talk,
1Ti 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, not understanding either what they say or what they affirm.

 

[lil_christian]

And Michal, the daughter of King Saul was childless UNTIL the day of her death.

And the tomb of Moses was lost UNTIL this very day.

So I guess Michal managed to have kids after her death, and we'll soon read about the discovery of Moses' tomb right?

No, that would be unto. Unto and until are two different things. First off, unto is a preposition. Until is...I'm pretty sure an adverb.

Those words have two different functions.

If the tomb of Moses was lost until this very day, then today it must have been found.

If the tomb of Moses was lost unto this very day, then it's still lost.

If Michal, the daughter of King Saul was childless until the day of her death, then she must have had a baby right after she did. Ummmm? Now, if Michal, the daughter of King Saul was childless UNTO the day of her death, then she still would have been childless.

 

[SantoSubito]

So you need Mary to get to Jesus? Huh-uh. I say you were tricked to believe it was Mary.

Nope I pray directly to Jesus plenty, but I also ask for the intercession of the Blessed Mother and my patron Saint George. It's no different than say, praying for a job, and asking other people to pray that you will get a job as well. Is that betraying God because you feel you need other peoples prayers? No. Same principle applies here, and it is still God who ultimately answers the prayer or not.

HERE IS WHY:

Jesus is our Intercessor.

Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

JESUS is the one who does it all. Says nothing about Mary.

Come boldly unto the throne of grace...go to Jesus.

Hebrews 4:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

See above.

You go to Jesus...not Mary. Mary can't do diddly. She's DEAD. She DIED. Nothing in the Bible says she was immortal, stayed alive, or anything like that. Believe me...the Bible WOULD have said something about Mary not dying. So why do you think that Mary can do anything? The only people that have never experienced death are, as A-Omega and the Bible says, Enoch and Elijah.

I wouldn't expect the Bible to mention the Assumption, as all the NT authors had died except possibly John who was exiled on Patmos. But like it or not Mary is like the rest of us immortal, as the soul cannot die.

 

[SantoSubito]

They do not get the fact that mary gave birth to the flesh of Christ. The flesh which suffered the same result of sin our flesh suffers (feels pain, gets old, is week, needs fed, Gets sick and dies) Which Christ had to have or he could not be like us, and he could not die or suffer anything.

Adam did not have any of these calamities until after he sinned. Sin is what brought death, And Christ had to suffer those things with us.

mary did not have to by Holy, because she did not give birth to God. She had a human body form in her, which God then entered after he was born. She gave birth to his flesh, not his being, His being was alive before this earth was even created (he even helped create it) He also created her.

until they realise these basic things, they will not realise they are following a pagan tradition handed down from the ages from babel, The names have changed and the terms have changed, but it is the same "mother of God" ritualistic belief handed down from babylon.

Like I said Nestorianism is with us to this day. By denying that Christ was fully God and fully man from the moment of his conception you have separated the two natures of Christ. The Church rejected this view when Nestorius put it forth and the Church rejects it still.

 

[SantoSubito]

No, that would be unto. Unto and until are two different things. First off, unto is a preposition. Until is...I'm pretty sure an adverb.

Those words have two different functions.

If the tomb of Moses was lost until this very day, then today it must have been found.

If the tomb of Moses was lost unto this very day, then it's still lost.

If Michal, the daughter of King Saul was childless until the day of her death, then she must have had a baby right after she did. Ummmm? Now, if Michal, the daughter of King Saul was childless UNTO the day of her death, then she still would have been childless.

What he's getting at and what some people fail to realize is that the Greek word for "until" (which is used in the passages Dschereck quoted above in the LXX) only addresses what happened up to a point in time; it does not address what came after or imply a change after a point in time. Our English word "until" however does which is where the confusion comes in.

 

[lil_christian]

Nope I pray directly to Jesus plenty, but I also ask for the intercession of the Blessed Mother and my patron Saint George. It's no different than say, praying for a job, and asking other people to pray that you will get a job as well. Is that betraying God because you feel you need other peoples prayers? No. Same principle applies here, and it is still God who ultimately answers the prayer or not.



See above.





I wouldn't expect the Bible to mention the Assumption, as all the NT authors had died except possibly John who was exiled on Patmos. But like it or not Mary is like the rest of us immortal, as the soul cannot die.

No, having LIVING people pray for you is not like asking Mary or Saint George, WHO ARE DEAD, to pray for you. I might as well ask my great-grandmother, who is in heaven praising Jesus, to pray for me.

Ok, fellow Christians need to support each other. That's why we ask for prayers from others...not dead people.

Does the Bible SAY that Mary was immortal or did not die? Did it say that Mary was so holy that she couldn't even consummate her marriage?

 

[lil_christian]

What he's getting at and what some people fail to realize is that the Greek word for "until" (which is used in the passages Dschereck quoted above in the LXX) only addresses what happened up to a point in time; it does address what came after or imply a change after a point in time. Our English word "until" however does which is where the confusion comes in.

Would it make sense if Luke 2:11 said:

Luke 2:11
For UNTIL you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

instead of:

Luke 2:11
For UNTO you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

I don't think it would make much sense.


NOTE: I'm not adding or subtracting or twisting Scripture. I am showing you that unto and until are NOT the same thing.

Until implies that it happened afterwards. It also answers in an adverb phrase, WHEN. Unto does not.

 

[SantoSubito]

No, having LIVING people pray for you is not like asking Mary or Saint George, WHO ARE DEAD, to pray for you. I might as well ask my great-grandmother, who is in heaven praising Jesus, to pray for me.

Ok, fellow Christians need to support each other. That's why we ask for prayers from others...not dead people.

Except they aren't dead they are even more alive than us in Heaven. In Catholic theology the three parts of the Church are all still part of the Body of Christ; The Church Militant (us on Earth), The Church Triumphant (those in Heaven), and The Church Suffering (those in Purgatory) are all united in the Body of Christ, for God is not a God of the dead.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You just said that Christ was separately Man and God in this sentence,This is heresy.

Says who?? You?

Was Christ in human flesh when he created the earth?
Was Christ in human flesh when he walked with Adam?
Was Christ in human flesh when he was in the burning bush?
Was Christ in human flesh when he was in the fiery furnace with Meshack Shadrack and abendigo?

mary Gave Christ a human flesh to enter to become man. You trying to twist things does not make what I believe a heresy. Facts are facts no matter what anyone says!

The Humanity and Divinity of Jesus are never separated but are wholly united in one. I am afraid that you are committing the heresy of the Arians when you say this.

And you just proved the point I have been making since Scott started this thread. Your saying I am a heretic because i do not believ in a doctrine based on what ifs and maybe's. Just because MEN say so. You should be ashamed of yourself for not seeking truth, and calling me a heretic because I do not believe in something that can not be proven by Scripture.

The Arians taught that Mary only bore Jesus as flesh and that only later the Spirit of God took the place of Jesus' soul. But this is completely false since Jesus was never separated as a Divine and Human entity. He is light from light, true God from true God, never separated in 2 natures but united as One, The LOGOS of God. He is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Mary did not bear God the Father but God the Son, Who is of One Essence in Humanity and Divinity, even before the foundation of the world. You therefore greatly err saying that "God entered (Jesus) after He was born".

1. Mary birthed Jesus flesh.
2. It is not know when God the son entered this flesh, before birth or AT birth. But if people are saying he did not enter until long after the lfesh was born, I would agree, they are in error. But it does not take the fact that mary did not birth God. God was around before mary was even born. The son created mary in mary's mother';s womb, and gave her life. How could the one which gave mary her life be born of mary?
3. Jesus was NOT Human before the foundation of the world, where do you get this? Mary's egg, which was inseminated by the touch of the HS gave Christ his human flesh. so how Could Christ be Human before the foundation of the world? when the egg had not even been created yet!
4. You may believe I err, but God (the son) entered the flesh born of mary after the flesh was created. Those are facts, supported by scripture. and nothing you or anyone else says can change the facts!

Prove it. You and what Bishops? Who is the Bishop "overseer" who has appointed you as an authorized pastor or teacher? How can we take your word for it? Are you the "Ground and Pillar of the Truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)?

1. A true bishop will teach the word of God. not twist and distort it.
2. A true bishop will do as Jesus did, paul did, and peter did. And use scripture to prove his truths are from God. Not human tradition.
3. A true church does not sources outside of Scripture. Scripture will WITHOUT A DOUBT support all doctrines of the church.

Your bishops and your churches have NONE of these characteristics. So they can not be the foundation of truth.

God did not give us a bible which we could not understand. It is also not a dead word in which we must look to men over a thousand years ago to know how to interpret it. God said his word is ALIVE and POWERFUL, sharper than any TWO EDGED SWORD. It is just as alive today as it was the day John penned his last words and closed the book. Sorry you believe in a dead word. But I do not believe in a dead word.

 

[lil_christian]

Except they aren't dead they are even more alive than us in Heaven. In Catholic theology the three parts of the Church are all still part of the Body of Christ; The Church Militant (us on Earth), The Church Triumphant (those in Heaven), and The Church Suffering (those in Purgatory) are all united in the Body of Christ, for God is not a God of the dead.

So if you wanted to you could ask them to come back?

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

No, that would be unto. Unto and until are two different things. First off, unto is a preposition. Until is...I'm pretty sure an adverb.

Those words have two different functions.

If the tomb of Moses was lost until this very day, then today it must have been found.

If the tomb of Moses was lost unto this very day, then it's still lost.

If Michal, the daughter of King Saul was childless until the day of her death, then she must have had a baby right after she did. Ummmm? Now, if Michal, the daughter of King Saul was childless UNTO the day of her death, then she still would have been childless.

What you guys don't seem to understand is that the text has nothing to do with Mary having relations - no not at all. This interpretation comes from "constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain." (1 Timothy 6:5)


According to the Strong's Concordance, the word "UNTIL" means this:

G2193
ἕως
heōs
heh'-oce

Of uncertain affinity; a conjugation, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place): - even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-) til (-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while (-s).


The text, "And he knew her not until of which time she bore her first-born son . And he called his name Jesus." (Matthew 1:25)

The word "Until" does not signify that any union took place, notice at the end there, "And he called his name Jesus". This is to emphasize the fact of that Jesus would be born without seed, because it was Mary who said to the angel, "How can this be, since I KNOW NOT a man?" (Luke 1:43)

Thus, the Text is emphasizing the SEEDLESS CONCEPTION OF JESUS and not the conception of any other child or children.... You want to take away the glory from Jesus and at the same time speak blasphemy against Mary? This is all according to the readers false interpretations of Scriptures, for why would the Scriptures want to even mention such an irrelevant thing (Mary's 'sexual relations' with Joseph)? Only a mind seriously darkened by worldly lusts would think like this. As it says, "The eyes of the wicked are always looking for evil things; but the good are always quiet." Proverbs_15:15 LXX

 

[jimmydiggs]

So if you wanted to you could ask them to come back?

Irrelevant question that doesn't establish any objection.



However,



Deuteronomy 18


9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

 

[dscherck]

No, having LIVING people pray for you is not like asking Mary or Saint George, WHO ARE DEAD, to pray for you. I might as well ask my great-grandmother, who is in heaven praising Jesus, to pray for me.

Ok, fellow Christians need to support each other. That's why we ask for prayers from others...not dead people.

Does the Bible SAY that Mary was immortal or did not die? Did it say that Mary was so holy that she couldn't even consummate her marriage?

What is it with people ignoring the words of Scripture and claiming the saints are dead?

 

[lil_christian]

1. Mary birthed Jesus flesh.
2. It is not know when God the son entered this flesh, before birth or AT birth. But if people are saying he did not enter until long after the flesh was born, I would agree, they are in error. But it does not take the fact that mary did not birth God. God was around before mary was even born. The son created mary in mary's mother';s womb, and gave her life. How could the one which gave mary her life be born of mary?
3. Jesus was NOT Human before the foundation of the world, where do you get this? Mary's egg, which was inseminated by the touch of the HS gave Christ his human flesh. so how Could Christ be Human before the foundation of the world? when the egg had not even been created yet!
4. You may believe I err, but God (the son) entered the flesh born of mary after the flesh was created. Those are facts, supported by scripture. and nothing you or anyone else says can change the facts!

I decided to skip some quotes from your thingy EG

Anyways:

Well from the start, Mary's baby was very special since he was conceived by the Holy Spirit...

So are you trying to say EG, that Jesus was Savior at conception, or right before/during/after Mary went into labor?

 

[lil_christian]

What is it with people ignoring the words of Scripture and claiming the saints are dead?

Where's it say the saints aren't dead?

 

[lil_christian]

Irrelevant question that doesn't establish any objection.

Well to be quite honest I'm thoroughly confused. What CAN a saint do/not do?