Does the new covenant affirm or deny the OT?

[PS]

Just thinking about this-
The New Testament says "Come to Jesus and be saved" (in a nutshell). There is no need to know about OT law, no need for self-analysis, and no need for the Old Testament. People across the world in primitive mud huts who cannot read and do not have a Bible can come to Jesus with a childlike faith and be saved.

Throw the OT in the bin. It is obsolete, it misleads, it causes confusion, it is unnecessary, it is ended and finished. We have a new High Priest. Praise God.

 

[mailmandan]

The danger of the law is that people think if they keep the law they shall have eternal life, but that is not true. What the law does is to point out our sins and iniquities so that we might then go to the Redeemer. Point being the law does not and cannot save. The New Testament brings this truth out, while the Old Testament does not, and the danger is that those who were brought up on the Old Testament sit back in their armchair thinking they are right with God, when they have never met with the Saviour or their sins according to the law, having never been redeemed.

Galatians 3:24 - Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Sadly, there are those who pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9) Here is a statement below made by such a person who is a previous member of Christian Chat and was a SDA.

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

 

[Judges1318]

Just thinking about this-
The New Testament says "Come to Jesus and be saved" (in a nutshell). There is no need to know about OT law, no need for self-analysis, and no need for the Old Testament. People across the world in primitive mud huts who cannot read and do not have a Bible can come to Jesus with a childlike faith and be saved.

Throw the OT in the bin. It is obsolete, it misleads, it causes confusion, it is unnecessary, it is ended and finished. We have a new High Priest. Praise God.

1 Timothy 1:
"We know that the law is good if a man uses it properly."

2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..."

If we use it right, the law is a useful part of learning about and growing up into Christ. In fact, it was the only scriptures Paul and others had to instruct people about God and salvation and holy living.

 

[PS]

1 Timothy 1:
"We know that the law is good if a man uses it properly."

2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..."

If we use it right, the law is a useful part of learning about and growing up into Christ. In fact, it was the only scriptures Paul and others had to instruct people about God and salvation and holy living.

1Ti 1:8-10 KJV
(8) But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
(9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
(10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

The lawful or correct use of the law is to teach or show the wicked (listed) that their way is not God’s way, and in the sight of the Lord they are destined for eternal damnation. Hellfire preaching was common in England 100 years ago in order to scare the people, so they would turn to Christ. Maybe we should take it up again in our preaching, and if we did that would be a good way of using the law, lawfully.

Thank you for the post, you have helped clarify what the lawful use of the law is.

 

[PS]

Just to add, that the explanation regarding the lawful teaching of the law is found in the New Testament. hint hint.

 

[posthuman]

Throw the OT in the bin. It is obsolete, it misleads, it causes confusion, it is unnecessary, it is ended and finished. We have a new High Priest. Praise God.

On the contrary i believe it clarifies, it elucidates, and it is eminently useful and not completely fulfilled yet.
It just needs to be understood as what it is: a testimony and revelation of the person and work of Jesus Christ who is the Lord Godade flesh. Remember, Jesus showed the disciples on the Emmaus road how all the scripture speaks of Him, beginning with Moses.

If you don't see Him in it, you don't understand it - just as He said of those who have nothing, and even what they have is taken away. If you don't have knowledge of Him and multiply it by seeing Him in what you read, then yes the OT will confuse you as you misinterpret it. The right interpretation is the one that reveals and glorifies Him

 

[Judges1318]

Just to add, that the explanation regarding the lawful teaching of the law is found in the New Testament. hint hint.

Besides moral instruction, the OT also shows us how much superior the New Covenant of faith in Christ is over the old covenant of law. The book of Hebrews is an excellent example of how to use the law properly in this regard.

For example, in the old covenant it was forbidden to consume the blood of the sacrifice where the life is. In the New Covenant we do not have that limitation of law and are able to consume the blood of the Sacrifice, Jesus Christ, and take the life of the sacrifice into ourselves.

Another example, in the old covenant you were not allowed to enter into the place of the mercy seat behind the curtain. But in the New Covenant the barrier to the Holy Place is torn away and the worshiper has unhindered access to the mercy of God.

These lawful limitations demonstrate how the covenant of law can not give you life, nor can it bring you into unhindered mercy of God. Only in the Covenant of faith in Christ are these benefits realized. The law itself helps us to understand this.

 

[Whispered]

Rom 7:12 tells us the law is holy and just and good.

What the law cannot do, and what the law was never designed to do, is make us holy. Why? Because of the weakness of our flesh (Rom 8:3).

The purpose of the law was and is to bring us to Messiah so that we would come to the realization that justification is through faith alone.


Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I think what anti-law of God advocates fail to remember too is the facts of Jesus ministry. And that is that when Jesus did not say the law was done away with, who are we to say it was?The sacrificial law was nailed to the cross with Jesus as the last sacrifice for the sins of the world. It doesn't mean, nor did Jesus ever say, the law has disappeared. In fact, just the opposite.

Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Not all has yet been accomplished as per the prophecy of the Messiah and His impact on this world. Therefore....

 

[Whispered]

Just thinking about this-
The New Testament says "Come to Jesus and be saved" (in a nutshell). There is no need to know about OT law, no need for self-analysis, and no need for the Old Testament. People across the world in primitive mud huts who cannot read and do not have a Bible can come to Jesus with a childlike faith and be saved.

Throw the OT in the bin. It is obsolete, it misleads, it causes confusion, it is unnecessary, it is ended and finished. We have a new High Priest. Praise God.

When you write, OT, you mean, Old Testament?

 

[Whispered]

what on earth makes you think that either i or Dino never do any research? why in the world would you accuse us of having never studied? you got some basis for that?




how about instead of declaring that by fiat on your own authority, you actually address at least one of the points i made about the article? as it is you're just taking petty personal snipes and declaring what i wrote - which was exegetical - wrong on no other basis but 'because you say so' -- an argument which is neither convincing nor useful.

for example:



you know a couple of things that are not part of the decalogue?
Deuteronomy 6 & Leviticus 19 -- wherein it is written, you shall love the LORD your God, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
these are what Jesus Christ says are the greatest commandments upon which 'all the law and the prophets' are founded -- the basis of all the law is not the 10 commandments.
the article you put calls all the things outside of the decalogue en masse 'sacrificial' and 'ceremonial' and implies that all of it was practiced 'because of sin' -- saying it's 'obvious' that sabbath wasn't kept because of sin, therefore it's not ceremonial. obvious question: is love the Lord with all your heart practiced because of sin? is love your neighbor as yourself practiced because of sin? so are they 'ceremonial' ?

Ceremonial: marked by, involved in, or belonging to ceremony : stressing careful attention to form and detail
((Merriam Webster))

does sabbath observance under the law of the Sinai covenant given through Moses stress careful attention to form and detail?
YUP

Civic : of or relating to a citizen, a city, citizenship, or community affairs
((Merriam Webster))

does sabbath observance under the law of the Sinai covenant given through Moses relate to community affairs and relate to citizenship?
YUP

Moral: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior, expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior
((Merriam Webster))

does sabbath observance under the law of the Sinai covenant given through Moses express or teach a conception of right behavior?
YUP

so if you could do something edifying, maybe you could show us how this 'ceremonial/civic/moral' distinction is not an arbitrary human projection onto the holy writ, and prove that sabbath is 100% moral code with no civil regulation or ceremonial aspect of observance? that'd be great! it would be like we are having an actual Bible discussion! thanks!

You ignored the information I posted , writing this in response to the last of your post above, that shows the parts of the law of God.
How do I know you don't research? You just proved it by ignoring, research.


And no, you've also exampled you are not able to civilly engage in a discussion about the scriptures. I will not waste my time further. I saw this post and wanted to clarify your false remarks.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I think what anti-law of God advocates fail to remember too is the facts of Jesus ministry. And that is that when Jesus did not say the law was done away with, who are we to say it was?The sacrificial law was nailed to the cross with Jesus as the last sacrifice for the sins of the world. It doesn't mean, nor did Jesus ever say, the law has disappeared. In fact, just the opposite.

Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Not all has yet been accomplished as per the prophecy of the Messiah and His impact on this world. Therefore....

Jesus also said:

Matthew 22:

34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


If we love God with all our heart, soul, mind and love our neighbor as ourselves, would we then "keep the law"?

And what about the law which God puts in our minds and writes in our hearts under the New Covenant?


God has given us all we need to live godly in Christ Jesus in this life. Sometimes easy ... sometimes we face difficulties. But the failure is on our part due to the weakness of our flesh. The failure is not on the part of the law. The law was not given to make us holy. The law was given so we would look to Messiah as our only refuge ... our only hope.

 

[Whispered]

Jesus also said:

Matthew 22:

34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


If we love God with all our heart, soul, mind and love our neighbor as ourselves, would we then "keep the law"?

And what about the law which God puts in our minds and writes in our hearts under the New Covenant?


God has given us all we need to live godly in Christ Jesus in this life. Sometimes easy ... sometimes we face difficulties. But the failure is on our part due to the weakness of our flesh. The failure is not on the part of the law. The law was not given to make us holy. The law was given so we would look to Messiah as our only refuge ... our only hope.

Great post. The law of God and the books of the prophets are grounded in love. Love fulfills the law.
Why was the law given?
The Book of Romans chapter 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

The Book of Matthew chapter 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

[PS]

When you write, OT, you mean, Old Testament?

Yes, I mean Old Testament, when I write OT.

Salvation for all in the finished work of Jesus Christ as we understand it, is not taught in the OT.

 

[Whispered]

Yes, I mean Old Testament, when I write OT.

Salvation for all in the finished work of Jesus Christ as we understand it, is not taught in the OT.

That's actually not true.
There is another thread in the BDF that talks about Christ being in the Old Testament.

Question: "What was the Old Testament way of salvation?"

...." If the Old Testament way of salvation was not keeping the Law, then how were people saved? Fortunately, the answer to that question is easily found in Scripture, so there can be no doubt as to what was the Old Testament way of salvation. In Romans 4 the apostle Paul makes it very clear that the Old Testament way of salvation was the same as the New Testament way, which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. To prove this, Paul points us to Abraham, who was saved by faith: “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness” (Romans 4:3). Again, Paul quotes the Old Testament to prove his point—Genesis 15:6, this time. Abraham could not have been saved by keeping the Law, because he lived over 400 years before the Law was given! "

 

[dcontroversal]

Supercedes.......!!

 

[PS]

That's actually not true.
There is another thread in the BDF that talks about Christ being in the Old Testament.

Question: "What was the Old Testament way of salvation?"

...." If the Old Testament way of salvation was not keeping the Law, then how were people saved? Fortunately, the answer to that question is easily found in Scripture, so there can be no doubt as to what was the Old Testament way of salvation. In Romans 4 the apostle Paul makes it very clear that the Old Testament way of salvation was the same as the New Testament way, which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. To prove this, Paul points us to Abraham, who was saved by faith: “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness” (Romans 4:3). Again, Paul quotes the Old Testament to prove his point—Genesis 15:6, this time. Abraham could not have been saved by keeping the Law, because he lived over 400 years before the Law was given! "

That is what I said in the thread you mention and indeed I posted pages of scriptures that showed God was there with the Israelites in the OT. What changes in the NT is that the Saviour paid the penalty of sin on our behalf, making the law obsolete, but still we need to come to God in faith believing. That has not changed.

 

[PS]

That's actually not true.
There is another thread in the BDF that talks about Christ being in the Old Testament.

Question: "What was the Old Testament way of salvation?"

...." If the Old Testament way of salvation was not keeping the Law, then how were people saved? Fortunately, the answer to that question is easily found in Scripture, so there can be no doubt as to what was the Old Testament way of salvation. In Romans 4 the apostle Paul makes it very clear that the Old Testament way of salvation was the same as the New Testament way, which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. To prove this, Paul points us to Abraham, who was saved by faith: “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness” (Romans 4:3). Again, Paul quotes the Old Testament to prove his point—Genesis 15:6, this time. Abraham could not have been saved by keeping the Law, because he lived over 400 years before the Law was given! "

In response to your comment about the OT, I will simply say it is a historical record of a disobedient people who are not to be admired.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Great post. The law of God and the books of the prophets are grounded in love. Love fulfills the law.
Why was the law given?
The Book of Romans chapter 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

The Book of Matthew chapter 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Galatians 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Galatians 5:16-18

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.



What is meant by the words against such (the fruit of the Spirit in evidence in our lives) there is no law and if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law???

 

[PS]

Galatians 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Galatians 5:16-18

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.



What is meant by the words against such (the fruit of the Spirit in evidence in our lives) there is no law and if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law???

Galatians 5:18
“If ye are led (give yourselves up to be led) by (Greek) the Spirit, ye are not under the law.” For ye are not working the works of the flesh (Gal_5:16, Gal_5:19-21) which bring one “under the law” (Rom_8:2, Rom_8:14). The “Spirit makes free from the law of sin and death” (Gal_5:23). The law is made for a fleshly man, and for the works of the flesh (1Ti_1:9), “not for a righteous man” (Rom_6:14, Rom_6:15).

(Jamison-Fawcett-Brown)

 

[PS]

If we follow Jesus and live according to His teaching, we are not under law.

So if someone assaults you and you instinctively either turn the other cheek or walk or run away, you are not under law.

Of course, you aren't. You have not done anything wrong, but if you are in America and you get your gun out and shoot them, you are immediately under the law. Common sense, of course you are.

You will know if Christ lives in you, by your actions. Do not do as the world does. Separate yourself from the world.