peacefulbeliever,
I didn't separate water and holy Spirit - John by revelation from God said - I baptize with water but there comes one after me who is mightier than I; he shall baptize with holy Spirit. Jesus himself said that we must be born of water and of Spirit and in the very next verse he clarifies - That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit - why on earth would he insert that there if it didn't have any bearing? To be born from above is to be born of the Spirit - NOT water. Yes one receives the gift of holy Spirit when they are born again - when they are born of the Spirit.
baptism is water and the Spirit, just as John 3:5 states and has always been believed and understood from the very beginning. It is both. NO, one is born again, which is baptism, then they receive the Holy Spirit. From the beginning the Gift of the Holy Spirit was given by anointing.
Here is a short explanation of baptism, even though Rom 6:3-4 describes it, many do not understand the meaning or use of water. Water is life. It is the central element is life. But it is also death. Man cannot live under water.
Thus in baptism we die, going down into the water to be spiritually united with Christ in His death. We live again, rising out of the water in His resurrected humanity. It is called being, "born from above"
The Didache written in late 1st century, early 2nd spells it out very well, how to baptise and what it means. As well as the citations I gave to your earlier.
I have never heard of it being called an 'ole wives tale' (are you saying that because I'm old? - LOL)
It has no reflection on you, just an idiom.
It is called reading with comprehension. This whole chapter is the new birth >>>> born again of the Spirit >>>> water baptism is NOT being born again of the Spirit. Water baptism is a symbol of sins being washed away, it is a symbol of Christ's death and resurrection. Let's see - if John baptized with water and he said that there comes one mightier than he and he will baptize with holy Spirit - wouldn't it make sense that baptism in holy Spirit is NOW the one baptism?
YOu do not read very well, since your view is wholly unknown until sometime after the Reformation. John's baptism was ONLY for the remission of sin. The NT baptism was also remission of sin, but more importantly it was the entrance into Christ as prescribed in John 3:5. Rom 6:3-4 is the description of baptism which is always water/Spirit. NT baptism is always water/Spirit.
I haven't contradicted any scripture - I stated in my first paragraph that John 3 is regarding the new birth - never said it had anything to do with baptism. My bible says (not man) 'he saved us through the washing of regeneration (born again/re-born which is what the Greek word means) and renewing (a renewal) of the holy Spirit.' Water doesn't do that although it symbolizes that - ONLY being baptized with holy Spirit does that.
then I misunderstood you since baptism is of water and the Spirit is is known as the "new birth" the regeneration of the lost union Adam had with God in the beginning. It is re-newal, re-generation of something that had once existed, namely the union Adam had and for which man was created. ONLY water/Spirit does it. Holy Spirit does nothing without the water. It is why it is called a mystery (sacrament) and why it is salvific. It is necessary for salvation.
John 4:10,13,23,24 If you knew the gift of God and who it is that saith to you, Give me to drink; you would have asked of him and he would have given thee living water. . . .Whosoever drinks of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. . . . the hour comes and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him. God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth - That only comes from being born again of Spirit not water.
It comes from neither in the sense you are using it.
This is refering to the Gift of the Holy Spirit that believers recieve by anointing. It always follows baptism, but the indwelling is not from the event of baptism.
"it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit's presence there" . . . . The Spirit's presence is in the water?
That which is born of the Spirit is spirit - the Spirit dwells within each believer through being born again of God - being born again from above.
So to say the Spirit's presence is in the water - isn't that symbolic?
The HOly Spirit is using the water to convey grace. The Spirit DOES NOT DWELL IN THE BELIEVER THROUGH BAPTISM. The indwelling is a separate gift, and is by anointing. The Church has always called it Chrismation. Being born again, is simply the entrance into a lost relationship that is being renewed.
Water is not symbolic of anything. Noah and the Ark are symbolic of baptism. The REd Sea dividing is a symbol of baptism. Water/Spirit is baptism. The only baptism the Church has ever known and understood as the norm, Eph 4:5, Nicene Creed states it. It has never changed from the beginning, has always been practiced and believed the same.
The only confusion lies with sola scripturist who are trying to get a meaning when scripture does not explain the meaning. No one of the Church had a problem with it, so the whole process, form, structure never was explained in one concise statement. But all through Scripture it can be gleaned as to what it means, the form, and purpose. Paul is not going to go into a dissertation about baptism when his readers know full well what he is speaking about.
I would surmise that sola scripturist won't get it straight over the next 500 years either, if Christ taries that long.