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How can an honest person NOT see that the context of John 3 is speaking of being born again of the Spirit - Jesus even clarifies - That which is born of the flesh is flesh - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Water does not give birth to spirit; only Spirit gives birth to spirit - God is Spirit. Water does not create the new man, the inward man, the new creature - which are all names for the new birth - only being born of the Spirit >>>>> baptized with holy Spirit >>> can do that.
If you are born again; you also have been baptized with the holy Spirit regardless if you were baptized in water or not. One is not baptized with holy Spirit without faith.
How can an honest person NOT see that 1 Co. 12:13 clearly says "for by one Spirit are we baptized into one body"? . . .
The point is - water baptism does not save us - our faith in Jesus Christ saves us. Our faith in Jesus Christ is what gets us born again of the Spirit, filled with the Spirit, baptized in living water, i.e. holy Spirit - God even uses the same 'liquid' language for holy Spirit as he would for water . . . . poured out, filled with, baptized with . . . . [sigh]
If you are born again; you also have been baptized with the holy Spirit regardless if you were baptized in water or not. One is not baptized with holy Spirit without faith.
How can an honest person NOT see that 1 Co. 12:13 clearly says "for by one Spirit are we baptized into one body"? . . .
The point is - water baptism does not save us - our faith in Jesus Christ saves us. Our faith in Jesus Christ is what gets us born again of the Spirit, filled with the Spirit, baptized in living water, i.e. holy Spirit - God even uses the same 'liquid' language for holy Spirit as he would for water . . . . poured out, filled with, baptized with . . . . [sigh]
Now you are misconstruing what I stated. You are right, baptism is meaningless without the Cross. Which is why we needed the Cross before we could have a relationship with God. There was no purpose or reason for God to dwell with man if man did not have an eternal existence. If death is not overcome, everything else is moot. Christ overcame death and sin for us.
Faith or belief is what justifies us in believing Christ saved us from death and sin. Baptism is the difference between a believer and an unbeliever. It separates that moot faith of Satan from that of one who desires to be in Christ and then live according to Christ's precepts. Christ did the real thing which we could not do. Baptism is our spiritual participation in that death and resurrection which is why it is called our "spiritual resurrection" But that does not give you eternal life either.
Eternal life is granted if our faith continues, actively working with the Holy Spirit in perfecting ourselves.
You really have not gotten any further than Satan's belief. He believes that Christ also died and was resurrected. He genuinely believes that He was defeated by Christ.
I don't have it backwards, you have not gone far enough.
Faith or belief is what justifies us in believing Christ saved us from death and sin. Baptism is the difference between a believer and an unbeliever. It separates that moot faith of Satan from that of one who desires to be in Christ and then live according to Christ's precepts. Christ did the real thing which we could not do. Baptism is our spiritual participation in that death and resurrection which is why it is called our "spiritual resurrection" But that does not give you eternal life either.
Eternal life is granted if our faith continues, actively working with the Holy Spirit in perfecting ourselves.
You really have not gotten any further than Satan's belief. He believes that Christ also died and was resurrected. He genuinely believes that He was defeated by Christ.
I don't have it backwards, you have not gone far enough.
Christ doesn't have to be HERE to baptize us in holy Spirit.
Again, John baptized with water - there comes one mightier than John and he baptizes in holy Spirit. There is one baptism - the one that Jesus promised, the promise of his Father, to all born again believers - baptism with holy Spirit.
John 3:5 Except a man be born of water and of Spirit >>>>> spiritual water >>>>> living water >>>>> If you knew the gift of God and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; you would have asked of him, and he would have given you living water. >>>>> Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast you that living water? >>> Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. >>>> He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
When Jesus ascended - the baptism in the holy Spirit became available to ALL that believe on him.
Again, John baptized with water - there comes one mightier than John and he baptizes in holy Spirit. There is one baptism - the one that Jesus promised, the promise of his Father, to all born again believers - baptism with holy Spirit.
John 3:5 Except a man be born of water and of Spirit >>>>> spiritual water >>>>> living water >>>>> If you knew the gift of God and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; you would have asked of him, and he would have given you living water. >>>>> Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast you that living water? >>> Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. >>>> He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
When Jesus ascended - the baptism in the holy Spirit became available to ALL that believe on him.
peacefulbeliever,
You are correct, baptism is "being born from above". It is entrance into the Body of Christ.
It goes along with it but is a separate event. One receives the Gift ofthe Holy Spirit if and when on is baptised.
which is why it is baptism. Baptism is by water and the Spirit. Everytime baptism is mentioned or inferred as it does here it by the Holy Spirit. One cannot separate water/Spirit.
this must be an "ole wives tale" or something. This idea is unheard of until well after the reformation. It is wholly protestant and unscriptural. John 3:5 is the sine quo non definition of baptism and entrance into Christ, the "borning from above". It is water and the Spirit.
why would water need to be mentioned. It is describing what water baptism accomplishes. This whole chapter is known as the baptism chapter.
again, it is describing water baptism. It is what baptism does.
I thought that you understood from your first statement, but then digress to absolute contradiction of scripture.
Here is what Justin Martyr states about baptism and John3:5.
"Those who are convinced that what we teach is true and who desire to live accordingly are instructed to fast and to pray to God for the remission of all their past sins. We also pray and fast with them. Then we bring them to a place where there is water, and they are regenerated in the same manner in which we ourselves were regenerated. They then receive the washing with water in the name of God (the Father and Lord of the universe) and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. For Christ said, 'Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven"' [John 3:5]. (Justin First Apology chant 61)
Or Clement...
But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
Or Basil the Great ....
"This then is what it means to be `born again of water and Spirit': Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3, Col. 2:12-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit's presence there" (The Holy Spirit, 15:35).(375 AD)
They all categorically deny your interpretation.
You are correct, baptism is "being born from above". It is entrance into the Body of Christ.
It goes along with it but is a separate event. One receives the Gift ofthe Holy Spirit if and when on is baptised.
which is why it is baptism. Baptism is by water and the Spirit. Everytime baptism is mentioned or inferred as it does here it by the Holy Spirit. One cannot separate water/Spirit.
this must be an "ole wives tale" or something. This idea is unheard of until well after the reformation. It is wholly protestant and unscriptural. John 3:5 is the sine quo non definition of baptism and entrance into Christ, the "borning from above". It is water and the Spirit.
why would water need to be mentioned. It is describing what water baptism accomplishes. This whole chapter is known as the baptism chapter.
again, it is describing water baptism. It is what baptism does.
I thought that you understood from your first statement, but then digress to absolute contradiction of scripture.
Here is what Justin Martyr states about baptism and John3:5.
"Those who are convinced that what we teach is true and who desire to live accordingly are instructed to fast and to pray to God for the remission of all their past sins. We also pray and fast with them. Then we bring them to a place where there is water, and they are regenerated in the same manner in which we ourselves were regenerated. They then receive the washing with water in the name of God (the Father and Lord of the universe) and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. For Christ said, 'Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven"' [John 3:5]. (Justin First Apology chant 61)
Or Clement...
But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
Or Basil the Great ....
"This then is what it means to be `born again of water and Spirit': Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3, Col. 2:12-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit's presence there" (The Holy Spirit, 15:35).(375 AD)
They all categorically deny your interpretation.
K
I don't care what you say, placing your faith in your own work of being baptized demeans the cross and is demonic. On the other hand, placing your faith in the work of Christ and then deciding to be baptized is a wonderful experience. It's all about where your faith is. In what you do or what God did.
SeaBass,
Joel 2:28 is not about being baptised. It is about the Holy Spirit being poured out upon all flesh. The fact that the Holy Spirit has a specific function of influencing, or calling all men to repentance. It has to do with Eph 2:15-18 the making of ONE man.
The Apostles were baptised with fire. The flames of fire is a designation ONLY for the Apostles.
If your speaking of the JOel prophecy here it was not baptism in the first place. However, the prophecy of Joel is still being carried out. It will continue until Christ comes again.
the prophecy was for the Messianic Age which is still in progress.
"Agreed.
Joel 2:28 is not about being baptised. It is about the Holy Spirit being poured out upon all flesh. The fact that the Holy Spirit has a specific function of influencing, or calling all men to repentance. It has to do with Eph 2:15-18 the making of ONE man.
The Apostles were baptised with fire. The flames of fire is a designation ONLY for the Apostles.
If your speaking of the JOel prophecy here it was not baptism in the first place. However, the prophecy of Joel is still being carried out. It will continue until Christ comes again.
the prophecy was for the Messianic Age which is still in progress.
"Agreed.
Scripture disagrees with you again. Eph 2:15-18. Christ not ONLY unified mankind, Jew and Gentile, but gave life to the world. Overcame death for all. Heb 2:14, Heb 2:9, Rom 5:18, Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 5:6-10, Rom 3:23-25, I Cor 15:12-22. Nothing about ONLY believers.
What you do does separate you from being a beleiver and an unbeliever. Faith, belief which justifies, Baptism - entrance into Christ. Eternal life is attained through faith. The working out of our salvation. It is all works, you will give an account of your works, Rom 2:5-8, Rev 20:13. It is ALL ABOUT WHAT YOU DO.
If all you did was put your faith in the Cross, as I stated earlier, you are no further than Satan or an unbeliver.
The Cross did not grant eternal life. If it actually had, then all men would also be in heaven.
What you do does separate you from being a beleiver and an unbeliever. Faith, belief which justifies, Baptism - entrance into Christ. Eternal life is attained through faith. The working out of our salvation. It is all works, you will give an account of your works, Rom 2:5-8, Rev 20:13. It is ALL ABOUT WHAT YOU DO.
If all you did was put your faith in the Cross, as I stated earlier, you are no further than Satan or an unbeliver.
The Cross did not grant eternal life. If it actually had, then all men would also be in heaven.
do you not read well. I answered this is the very post to which you are responding, Here is what I stated.....in #1385
"Now you are misconstruing what I stated. You are right, baptism is meaningless without the Cross. Which is why we needed the Cross before we could have a relationship with God. There was no purpose or reason for God to dwell with man if man did not have an eternal existence. If death is not overcome, everything else is moot. Christ overcame death and sin for us. [/quote]
Maybe it would help to understand what another says without first interpretating it through your own paradigm.
"Now you are misconstruing what I stated. You are right, baptism is meaningless without the Cross. Which is why we needed the Cross before we could have a relationship with God. There was no purpose or reason for God to dwell with man if man did not have an eternal existence. If death is not overcome, everything else is moot. Christ overcame death and sin for us. [/quote]
Maybe it would help to understand what another says without first interpretating it through your own paradigm.
K
It's not my choice it is the word of God. Yes I choose to look at the cross for my salvation and for my sanctification. With out the cross we are nothing we are trimmings for the fire. That's why the cross is dominant in every post I make, Because I know where my salvation comes from and it is nothing I did, but what I believed. It is extremely wrong to point people to baptism for their salvation as it points them away from the cross. There is nothing wrong with baptism and every believer should be baptized as a sign of their faith in the work of the cross and nothing more than that. With out the cross, we are just a sounding brass and people making noise about nothing.
A
Give me the scripture that says water baptism has ended. Remember, Paul said in Ephesians 4:4 that there is one baptism. That means there cannot be two. Show me the scripture that says water baptism is no longer in effect today. There are only two events of Holy Spirit baptism in the New Testament. It was never promised to all people for all time.
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