You have said this same thing in the past, with the same amount of animosity. Instead of correcting with meekness and respect for your brothers and sisters in Christ you would condemn them. Have you even considered restoration? Though I believe you to be incorrect, your method of discussion is ineffective and lacking love. How will you lead people to the truth when you are so quick to toss them into Hell?
Does YOUR FAITH heal you?Name it claim it! YAY!!
- Thread starter PollyAnna
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It's easy to be wrong with a scripture.....I've done it many times. This Op deserves "consideration" because some adequate points have been made & questions have been asked.
Is everyone healed upon accepting Christ? No. Are they always healed sometime afterwards? No again. So how do we deal with what the Word says & what happens/doesn't happen?
1. God's word is always true, no matter what.
Romans 3:1-6 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? [SUP]4 [/SUP]May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED in YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL when YOU ARE JUDGED." [SUP]5 [/SUP]But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) [SUP]6 [/SUP]May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?
2. Are there scriptures that "prove" or "confirm" the belief? For "by His stripes we were healed"for physical healing, yes.
James 5:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; [SUP]15 [/SUP]and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Thought the listing is in reverse, forgiveness & healing are named together. And healing is guaranteed.
What do I do about the times we don't get healed? It happens, & shouldn't be ignored. However, saying God's Word doesn't mean what it says is not the way to deal with it. It's forever established in Heaven. Just because I don't have an answer for it doesn't mean I question God's Word.
Like the Op, I hate WOF..... One does not name & claim, telling God what to do. But God's Word is what it is..... sure & unchanging.
Is everyone healed upon accepting Christ? No. Are they always healed sometime afterwards? No again. So how do we deal with what the Word says & what happens/doesn't happen?
1. God's word is always true, no matter what.
Romans 3:1-6 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? [SUP]4 [/SUP]May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED in YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL when YOU ARE JUDGED." [SUP]5 [/SUP]But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) [SUP]6 [/SUP]May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?
2. Are there scriptures that "prove" or "confirm" the belief? For "by His stripes we were healed"for physical healing, yes.
James 5:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; [SUP]15 [/SUP]and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Thought the listing is in reverse, forgiveness & healing are named together. And healing is guaranteed.
What do I do about the times we don't get healed? It happens, & shouldn't be ignored. However, saying God's Word doesn't mean what it says is not the way to deal with it. It's forever established in Heaven. Just because I don't have an answer for it doesn't mean I question God's Word.
Like the Op, I hate WOF..... One does not name & claim, telling God what to do. But God's Word is what it is..... sure & unchanging.
2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Tell it to Paul,for he was given a thorn in the flesh,and asked God to remove it three times,but God said My grace is sufficient for you,that is all you need,so Paul said very well then,I will glory in my infirmities,for when I am weak,then I am strong.
God sometimes has a reason why we do not get healed,or allow an ailment to befall us,and if He does not heal,then that not healing us actually causes us to have a better spiritual walk with God,for we learn to be humble,rest on God's grace,and realize that His grace is sufficient for us,and when we are weak,then we are strong,for the power of Christ rests on us.
To heal,or not to heal,that is the question,or that will be found out to those that seek a healing,sometimes a healing helps the spiritual advance of the kingdom,and sometimes not being healed,helps the spiritual advance of the kingdom.
A healing to testify that God does indeed exist,and because that healing is necessary in that persons life,such as people that evangelize,so they can get around,not a healing to keep a person in a good spiritual position with God,that would go astray if completely without ailment.
I really do not all the reasons,but God will heal,and sometimes He will not heal.
To heal,or not to heal,and if you ask for a healing,that question will be answered.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Tell it to Paul,for he was given a thorn in the flesh,and asked God to remove it three times,but God said My grace is sufficient for you,that is all you need,so Paul said very well then,I will glory in my infirmities,for when I am weak,then I am strong.
God sometimes has a reason why we do not get healed,or allow an ailment to befall us,and if He does not heal,then that not healing us actually causes us to have a better spiritual walk with God,for we learn to be humble,rest on God's grace,and realize that His grace is sufficient for us,and when we are weak,then we are strong,for the power of Christ rests on us.
To heal,or not to heal,that is the question,or that will be found out to those that seek a healing,sometimes a healing helps the spiritual advance of the kingdom,and sometimes not being healed,helps the spiritual advance of the kingdom.
A healing to testify that God does indeed exist,and because that healing is necessary in that persons life,such as people that evangelize,so they can get around,not a healing to keep a person in a good spiritual position with God,that would go astray if completely without ailment.
I really do not all the reasons,but God will heal,and sometimes He will not heal.
To heal,or not to heal,and if you ask for a healing,that question will be answered.
Demonstrably, that is not what folks here are believing, PollyAnna. You're setting up a straw man to have something to tear down.
Folks here keep pointing to Christ and you keep pointing to heresy hunters.
Hmmmm . . .
Our family has seven children. One was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes at age 7 (age 15 now and doing great) who has not been healed, yet our faith remains. Jesus told us that there would be trouble in this world, but that He would walk every step of the way with us.
He proved this once again to our family this past year as we've walked the path of metastatic brain and spine cancer with our 11 (now 12) year old son. God led us to have him treated at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, and it's been a long, hard road, but as promised, God has walked every step of the way with us and His Body has stepped up and supported us in many wonderful ways. Our son has received clear scans and we pray that his healing is complete and enduring. He'll go back to St. Jude's for repeat scans periodically, and we continue to choose to trust God through it all, no matter the outcome. God is good and God is faithful, no matter what.
The only guaranteed outcome is the Resurrection. Supernatural healing in this life does happen, but is not guaranteed. It is not for us to demand or claim. But we can and do ask!
We live in a fallen world and will be touched by it to varying degrees. God promises that He will never leave us or forsake us, no matter what. Our experience has been as touched on above. Others have received supernatural, dramatic healings. Either way God is good and God is faithful - even when He raises up the Body to love those well who are sick and dying but does not heal.
We will all die from something as the Lord tarries, yes? That is a reality that we all face. In the midst of it all, we choose to trust God. The notion that God puts illness or tragedy on folks to teach us or others lessons - NO. We are touched by this fallen world, yes, and God can take what the Enemy has intended for evil and bring good from it, but God does not PUT or CAUSE bad things to happen to anyone.
There is great value in walking through sickness and trials - light is shone in places where is wasn't before and we, as believers, are taught empathy and how to relate with people and minister to those going through similar circumstances that we could not have known had we not gone through trials ourselves.
We learn how to love others better, more practically, and more deeply when we've been through stuff ourselves, yes? And having gone through trials with Christ at our side, are able to minister His love and His Gospel more effectively to the Lost around us, yes?
Why?
Because the Gospel becomes to us to be about LIFE, and not SIN, as it is intended in the Scriptures. The Lost respond so much better to Love and Life than to Turn or Burn. It is the kindness of God that brings us to repentance, yes?
But enough with this heresy-hunting stuff - Just preach Jesus, the simple truths of the Gospel and contextual Scriptures and let the Holy Spirit sort it out. Press into Jesus and let Him produce the Fruit in you that He desires to produce - it will always build up and not tear down. There are times to sound alarms - I have a website that examines the Hebrew Roots Movement (and even reference Let Us Reason once or twice), but in the context of building believers up in who they are in Christ, not just for the sake of tearing down those I disagree with.
We must always act in a redemptive context - grace - the building up of our sisters and brothers in Christ, loving them well to spur them on to the good works (fruit) that God has prepared in advance for them to do!
-JGIG
"The messenger of satan...", how do you attribute this to a sickness? The thorn is described as a messenger of satan, not as a disease. It mentions infirmity in the next verse, but infirmity isn't always referenced as a sickness but rather persecution. Also "messenger" refers to a created being (2 Corinthians 12:7 Interlinear: and that by the exceeding greatness of the revelations I might not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of the Adversary, that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted ove)
Eh, childish antics. Your retort is simply to toss back the assessment and not consider it. Do you think the method you're using is edifying? I am just being honest. Do you consider any of my "cronies" to be fellow believers in Jesus Christ, fellow children of God? Or do you see them as lost? Often people from the other side of things (opposed to the grace message) do not even consider them fellow believers, but of "another faith." I see you as a believer, that is growing. Do you see us in the same way, or on our way to "that special place in Hell"?
That is a mistake people often make, thinking that perception is irrelevant to the sharing of truth. Perception is rather important for the reception of truth, as a harsh rebuke can cut off restoration. People need to realize the way in which you share the truth (in love) allows for it to be received in the heart, as opposed to sharing the truth harshly hardening the heart.
Just look at street preachers, or soapbox preachers, their message is one of condemnation. The other day I heard a street preacher say for some thirty years he hasn't seen one person convert through his street preaching. Maybe he should take a hint that people's perception is important to the reception of the Gospel (and condemnation isn't the appropriate method). His method doesn't work, and is in fact hardening people's hearts because it lacks love. They say they preach the truth and that is loving, but that is entirely different from preaching the truth in love.
Just look at street preachers, or soapbox preachers, their message is one of condemnation. The other day I heard a street preacher say for some thirty years he hasn't seen one person convert through his street preaching. Maybe he should take a hint that people's perception is important to the reception of the Gospel (and condemnation isn't the appropriate method). His method doesn't work, and is in fact hardening people's hearts because it lacks love. They say they preach the truth and that is loving, but that is entirely different from preaching the truth in love.
What ever happened to those willing to endure hardness for the Lord? What kind od man puts on the armor of God and cries like a baby if he scratches his finger? Just a bunch milk toast fair weather believers.
What if God should require you to sacrifice your body and good health as a testimony of His love? To show lost souls how to have faith that God will redeem and grant eternal life to those who love Him. Do you love yourself more than you love God? Does health and healing come before the testimony of the Lord?
Too many mommies boys running around trying to sound like men but with the character and stamina of little girls no wait the little girls don't cry as quick as these great men who are hero's.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
A lifetime of suffering here for an eternity of bliss in heaven. Which is the greater?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
What if God should require you to sacrifice your body and good health as a testimony of His love? To show lost souls how to have faith that God will redeem and grant eternal life to those who love Him. Do you love yourself more than you love God? Does health and healing come before the testimony of the Lord?
Too many mommies boys running around trying to sound like men but with the character and stamina of little girls no wait the little girls don't cry as quick as these great men who are hero's.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
A lifetime of suffering here for an eternity of bliss in heaven. Which is the greater?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I let others be the judge of that. In regards to Joseph Prince, the Lord orchestrated events in such a way that I got one of his books to learn about God's grace. The Lord used his book to allow me to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. I even had a dream where the Lord told me that He was going to be teaching me about His grace (as Jesus and I stood before two mirrors and the reflection in both were Jesus). This meaning, imputed righteousness, justification, and so on.
You say you see it one way and I another, but God has but one mouth. If there is a contradiction between what we are sharing, then shouldn't we like the Bereans search the scriptures? I said in another thread or post to you that all these people disagreeing simply disagree in method, but actually desire the same goal. That is something to keep in mind.
You say you see it one way and I another, but God has but one mouth. If there is a contradiction between what we are sharing, then shouldn't we like the Bereans search the scriptures? I said in another thread or post to you that all these people disagreeing simply disagree in method, but actually desire the same goal. That is something to keep in mind.
Maybe Ezekiel should have changed his method too, for he didn't have any success stories, either.
Ezekiel 3:5-9 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]"For you are not being sent to a people of unintelligible speech or difficult language, but to the house of Israel, [SUP]6 [/SUP]nor to many peoples of unintelligible speech or difficult language, whose words you cannot understand. But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; [SUP]7 [/SUP]yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate. [SUP]8 [/SUP]"Behold, I have made your face as hard as their faces and your forehead as hard as their foreheads. [SUP]9 [/SUP]"Like emery harder than flint I have made your forehead. Do not be afraid of them or be dismayed before them, though they are a rebellious house."
Maybe the street preachers are also preaching to a rebellious house too?
Ezekiel 3:5-9 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]"For you are not being sent to a people of unintelligible speech or difficult language, but to the house of Israel, [SUP]6 [/SUP]nor to many peoples of unintelligible speech or difficult language, whose words you cannot understand. But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; [SUP]7 [/SUP]yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate. [SUP]8 [/SUP]"Behold, I have made your face as hard as their faces and your forehead as hard as their foreheads. [SUP]9 [/SUP]"Like emery harder than flint I have made your forehead. Do not be afraid of them or be dismayed before them, though they are a rebellious house."
Maybe the street preachers are also preaching to a rebellious house too?
That is the excuse used by "evangelists" who do not reveal the goodness of God that leads to repentance. Instead of being introspective they blame the harvest, instead of deciding that the field is white for harvest they are burning the crops with a message of condemnation instead of reconciliation.
People encourage them in posts, "Oh good for you, preaching to those sinners. You gave them a good stern word! You tell 'em!", when in actuality they have failed these people. There was no love, the truth can be shared in such a way that hardens people's heart, not because the message is offensive but because the messenger is offensive.
Of course we ought to love these street preachers just as we encourage them to love others. In this way they see how gentleness and respect go a long way in receiving truth, or correction. I just find too often when people accuse the harvest of being rebellious it is often because they themselves have showed no results. They blame the harvest instead of their methods. Maybe the issue isn't the harvest but the laborers.
As I shared earlier, perception is a key to reception. If people do not perceive the love in what you share, in that of coming into an embrace and reconciliation with the Father, they do not get a glimpse of God's goodness. They usually get condemnation, hate, and a "repent or else" ultimatum instead of a message of reconciliation.
People encourage them in posts, "Oh good for you, preaching to those sinners. You gave them a good stern word! You tell 'em!", when in actuality they have failed these people. There was no love, the truth can be shared in such a way that hardens people's heart, not because the message is offensive but because the messenger is offensive.
Of course we ought to love these street preachers just as we encourage them to love others. In this way they see how gentleness and respect go a long way in receiving truth, or correction. I just find too often when people accuse the harvest of being rebellious it is often because they themselves have showed no results. They blame the harvest instead of their methods. Maybe the issue isn't the harvest but the laborers.
As I shared earlier, perception is a key to reception. If people do not perceive the love in what you share, in that of coming into an embrace and reconciliation with the Father, they do not get a glimpse of God's goodness. They usually get condemnation, hate, and a "repent or else" ultimatum instead of a message of reconciliation.
L
how do you feel about washing feet?
you cannot really know Christ's REAL and absolute love because you are not the Son of God
political correctness never entered the Lord's mind..but it seems some folks like to use that sort of expression to qualify and perhaps justify their own harsh personalities while telling themselves it's ok...Jesus would approve cause like I'm all about pointing out sin
but that is NOT what Jesus did...
I honestly don't think anyone here is judging you, but I would not expect you to say less, (having become familiar with your style) while not seeing that you are in fact the judge here
I don't really care how you respond to me or even if you bother to do so...I just decided I should point out how irresponsible and careless your comparison of yourself to Jesus is
you cannot really know Christ's REAL and absolute love because you are not the Son of God
political correctness never entered the Lord's mind..but it seems some folks like to use that sort of expression to qualify and perhaps justify their own harsh personalities while telling themselves it's ok...Jesus would approve cause like I'm all about pointing out sin
but that is NOT what Jesus did...
I honestly don't think anyone here is judging you, but I would not expect you to say less, (having become familiar with your style) while not seeing that you are in fact the judge here
I don't really care how you respond to me or even if you bother to do so...I just decided I should point out how irresponsible and careless your comparison of yourself to Jesus is