Dominionism and the NAR

[4runner]

i asked: DOES PREMILLENNIALISM ATTACH A 1,000 YEAR EARTHLY REIGN AFTER THE SECOND ADVENT?

should be fairly easy to explain. yea or nay?

''Attach'' The bible tells us that there will be a Millennial Reign of Christ that will start at His post tribulational return. This is What the apostles and the first century Church taught.

Although dispensationalist are premillennialist, not all premillennialist are dispensationalist.

*Example* All men are humans, but not all humans are men

 

[zone]

''Attach'' The bible tells us that there will be a Millennial Reign of Christ that will start at His post tribulational return. This is What the apostles and the first century Church taught.

no it doesn't.
one short chapter in revelation mentions a period symbolically called a thousand years.

no apostles in scripture or any early creeds say any such thing.

john was shown a series of visions in Rev.
if you don't understand them , that's your prob bud.

Rev 20 is the only place a thousand years is mentioned, and dispos have invented a whole eschatological system around it.

if you're not "dispensationalist", then what does Jesus need a literal 1,000 years with sinful flesh and glorifed saints co-existing in a restored Mosaic system years for?

Dominionism...same animal, different stripes.

 

[4runner]

no it doesn't.
one short chapter in revelation mentions a period symbolically called a thousand years.

Once you start sipiritualizing scripture rather than believing it you will #1 make it say anything you want it to say, and #2 not believe what it actually says.

The fact is John taught his disciple there would be a millennial reign and they taught that first century church. good Polycarp, and historical premillennialist. Thats if you want to know the truth.

P.S. Polycarp learned from John the Revelator himself

May the truth set you free

 

[4runner]

i meant google* not good

 

[zone]

Once you start sipiritualizing scripture rather than believing it you will #1 make it say anything you want it to say, and #2 not believe what it actually says.

The fact is John taught his disciple there would be a millennial reign and they taught that first century church. good Polycarp, and historical premillennialist. Thats if you want to know the truth.

P.S. Polycarp learned from John the Revelator himself

May the truth set you free

Sunday, October 28, 2007

The Inconclusive Eschatology of Polycarp [A.D. 65-100]



In Chapter 7 of Polycarp’s Epistle to the Philippians, Polycarp mentions the resurrection and the final judgment, but makes no mention whatsover of a millennium. He also defines antichrist biblically, not expecting him to be a future, worldwide dictator.

Chap. VII. — Avoid the Docetae, and Persevere in Fasting and Prayer.
​

For whosoever does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, is antichrist;” (1 John 4:3) and whosoever does not confess the testimony of the cross, is of the devil; and whosoever perverts the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts, and says that there is neither a resurrection nor a judgment, he is the first-born of Satan. Wherefore, forsaking the vanity of many, and their false doctrines, let us return to the word which has been handed down to us from (Comp. Jude 1:3) the beginning; “watching unto prayer,” (1 Peter 4:7) and persevering in fasting; beseeching in our supplications the all-seeing God “not to lead us into temptation,” (Matthew 6:13; Matthew 26:41) as the Lord has said: “The spirit truly is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41).
​

What little information we can glean from Polycarp’s eschatology supports amillennialism, though it is far from conclusive.

~

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• • http://christianityinhistory.blogspot.com/2007/10/inconclusive-eschatology-of-polycarp-ad.html

 

[zone]

Once you start sipiritualizing scripture rather than believing it you will #1 make it say anything you want it to say, and #2 not believe what it actually says.

tell me 4runner:
without "spiritualizing" scripture....

what does the following SAY?
i need to BELIEVE IT, without SPRITUALIZING it...please tell me what it says (take all the time you need):

Revelation 12:3
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads

also: could you please address the following?

i asked: DOES PREMILLENNIALISM ATTACH A 1,000 YEAR EARTHLY REIGN AFTER THE SECOND ADVENT?

should be fairly easy to explain. yea or nay?

 

[4runner]

tell me 4runner:
without "spiritualizing" scripture....

what does the following SAY?
i need to BELIEVE IT, without SPRITUALIZING it...please tell me what it says (take all the time you need):

Revelation 12:3
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads

also: could you please address the following?

Verse 3 is clearly explained in verse 9

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[4runner]

What little information we can glean from Polycarp’s eschatology supports amillennialism, though it is far from conclusive.

Historic premillennialism draws its name from the fact that many of the early Church Fathers (i.e. Ireneaus [140-203], who as a disciple of Polycarp, who had been an disciple of the apostle of John.

The doctrine of Premillennialism has strong support in church history. In fact, Premillennialism was the prevailing millennial view for the first 300 years of church history.

In the early church, Premillennialism was well represented by Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactantius. Papias’s belief in Premillennialism is especially significant since he was a disciple of Polycarp who in turn was a disciple of the Apostle John who penned the statements about a 1000-year reign of Christ in his Book of Revelation.

Polycarps 2 most famous disciples were both strong proponents of historic premillennialism, that tells us what Polycarp who was taught by the Apostle John himself believed.

Not only do you oppose scripture, but those that wrote it, and those that were discipled by the Apostles

I will stick with scripture and the apostles doctrine.

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

One of those doctrines is the very doctrine you oppose

 

[zone]

Verse 3 is clearly explained in verse 9

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

so, the text identifies the great dragon as satan. that's good.

but i needed you to tell me what manner of entity satan really is, since john is seeing a dragon, a serpent, and a devil. satan is not identified in this verse as a cherubim, so, what am i to make of the imagery since we are required to do a LITERAL INTERPRETATION (which those who claim they do are the first to break their own rules).

why is God choose to attach those names to satan? is it spiritualizing to ask that question? do those names describe attributes of satan LITERALLY? or spiritually?
i asked you to teach me what it all says and means without spiritualizing it.

take all the time you need.

maybe a definition of what you mean by spiritualizing first?

 

[zone]

Historic premillennialism draws its name from the fact that many of the early Church Fathers (i.e. Ireneaus [140-203], who as a disciple of Polycarp, who had been an disciple of the apostle of John.

The doctrine of Premillennialism has strong support in church history. In fact, Premillennialism was the prevailing millennial view for the first 300 years of church history.

In the early church, Premillennialism was well represented by Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactantius. Papias’s belief in Premillennialism is especially significant since he was a disciple of Polycarp who in turn was a disciple of the Apostle John who penned the statements about a 1000-year reign of Christ in his Book of Revelation.

Polycarps 2 most famous disciples were both strong proponents of historic premillennialism, that tells us what Polycarp who was taught by the Apostle John himself believed.

Not only do you oppose scripture, but those that wrote it, and those that were discipled by the Apostles

I will stick with scripture and the apostles doctrine.

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

One of those doctrines is the very doctrine you oppose

too bad you're not actually sticking to what John as an Apostle but acting in office of PROPHET when taken to The Lord's Day was shown in VISIONS.

you'll NEVER be able to tell any of us what goes on in the "millennium": and that SHOULD be one of the most trumpeted and described "dispensations" recorded. yet you base all of that speculation and story-telling, and dispensational theology on one short chapter in a vision, which uses a single Hebraism to describe a period of time the jews knew very well meant completion, fullness, and specifically in relation to the messianc era.

which in case you hadn't noticed, THEY DENY.

carry on.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok here goes. Back to the fun with Zone

bra,
israel has rarely been obedient as a nation.

God's promise was always a remnant. only a remnant. same all the way through their history. how may were in the wilderness? a million?

how many made it to The Promised Land?

we do not know what the final number of saved jews is.

same as we don't know how many gentiles will be saved.

Yeah it was always a remnant. There still is a few problems.

1. The remnant is kept So God can keep his promise.
2. This does not respond to what I said about what Daniel prayed about and what he was asking for (Context)

16 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. 17 Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

At this time, Gods people was Isreal.

Why was Daniel praying?

2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the LORD through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
3 Then I set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes. 4 And I prayed to the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, 5 we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 6 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.
8 “O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. 10 We have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. 11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.
13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 14 Therefore the LORD has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the LORD our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

As we can see. the context of the prayer of Daniel is the nation of Israel. Who the prophet Jeremiah said would have 70 to repent. Daniel sees the 70 years is almost up and prays to God on behalf of his people and his city/

According the the law. If Israel followed God, God would bless them and they would live in peace. If they did not. God would judge them and have foriegn armies come in, tear down their sanctuaries and make them prisoners.

Daniel is NOT asking about eternal salvation. He is asking God to have mercy on Israel, And restore them to their land, and restore the great city Jerusalem.

Since eternal salvation is not the context here. But the restoration of the nation of Israel and the city. The answer sent to Daniel by God will deal with this issue. Not eternal life or salvation of anyone.

So any response which says daniel 9 is fulfilled because of salvation is invalid. Because this is not what Daniel was even asking for.

right.

and so what did the angel come and tell him?

all that stuff that would be accomplished for his people and jerusalem.

now, you've either got pretend 70AD didn't happen (titus and the soldiers left her desolate), or aknowledge that the angel meant what he said about Jerusalem, but not about Jesus.

you gotta go in to Dan 9 with an exacto knife and make trouble, or you leave it alone and let it speak.

Christ came when prophesied, Finished His Work exactly as prophesied, it is testified to throughout the entire Bible.

what you refuse to see is that God's Plan was not changed, slowed, postponed or altered one iota by unbelieving jews. because you were raised on Scofield's "israel-centric" (dispnsational) view of Redemptive History instead of a Christo-centric view.

every Promise God made israel is fulfilled. when the believers enter the eternal state with believing gentiles, the consummaton of our inheritence is complete.

Again. Daniel was not asking for his people to be saved. he was asking for God to be merciful to them and for them to repent so they can be returned to the land. Context of Daniel 9 does not support your theory in my mind.

second. I can't take AD 70 as fulfilled. Because there was no abomination in ad 70. Ad 70 was 30 years past the end of the 69th week. No one made a covenant with Isreal. There were not many wars which happened between the 69th and 70 week when the abomination occures.

26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

we see a few things which happen after the 69th week. or the 62 week + 1 week.

1. Messiah is killed.
2. City and sanctuary is destroyed which will remain destroyed until the end of war desolations are determined. (end of war desolations are not completed, for the sanctuary has not been rebuilt yet.
3. Someone will confirm a covenant. The temple will be rebuilt, and szacrifice as per law will begin again (Israel is still in unbelief)
4. In the middle of the 70th week, He will commit the abomination of desolation.
5. We have the consumation poured out on the desolate (the great tribulation. As Jesus said, as has never been seen before, and shall never be seen after)

The city and sanctuary destroyed in 70 AD. this part your right. The rest has not happened yet!

Romans 11 says NOTHING that indicates either jewish universalism, OR a 2000 year reprieve from judgment because their forefathers rejected Christ - that is patently absurd and does dreadful violence to the whole Plan.

the start of the 70th week refers to the start of the ministry of Jesus, he was crucified in the middle of the week and the end of the week corresponds to the Gentiles coming to Christ (Cornelius)....end of story.

Ah, But here I can not see in the prophesy. The prophesy states messiah will be cut off at the END of the 69th week. Not in the middle of the 70th week. He is cut of before the begining of the 70th week.

the fullness of the gentiles simply means the fullness of God's mystery of the Church (Eph) realized by the bringing in of THE OTHER SHEEP, which are not of this fold (israel): THEM I MUST BRING ALSO....the gentiles.

done deal.

Romans 11:31
so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.

see? nice and orderly.
no weird gaps, no 2 separate plans, no two peoples, etc etc.

Everything you said about the end or fullness of the gentiles is correct. But then youi missed an important point.

1. The blindness of Isreal only happens UNTIL this time period. THEN all ISREAL WILL BE SAVED. Just as the prophesy says:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

If Israels blindness is only in part until the fullness of the Gentiles is completed. Then it is logical to believe then the blinders will be removed, and as Paul said. ALL Israel will repent and be saved.
To read it any other way I can not see.

2. No gap. There already is a Gap. Between the end of the 69th week (messiah is killed) and the destruction of the city (70 AD) is already 37 years. last I read. 37 does not equal 7.

Paul never said anything about a short time. and there's zero abut israel being restored to some level of glory aside from eternal life with Jesus, of which we are all partakers.

you gotta have a pretrib rapture to get your gentile church off the earth so God can switch back to Plan A for israel >> Hollywood, dude....a Pharisee Production.

it just ain't written at all. not in there.

It is written (maybe not pre-trib) but it is there. Scripture talks of a falling away, The end of gentile domination. maybe the gentile churches have become so corrupt there are no true churhces left? Either way. Scripture says God will restore Isreal to its place as God's representatives. It is Gods covenant with them. Which has not faded away.

it says nothing of the sort.

there will be a time of great falling away from at the end, but that's by nominal christians (in profession only - jew and gentile).

true believers (jew and gentile) go through the trib and emerge victorious dead or alive.

Well this is exactly what Romans 11 says. If you read the whole thing. And this is exactly what Daniel prayed for. And what God promised to him. As scripture says, God will give life to the dry bones and bring them together from the four corners of the earth. This is speaking about Israel being scatted and returned to her land. Nothing to do with the church.

no Bud.
those are somebody else's ideas...its LEAVEN.
a whole buncha guys are in on it.

Well like I tell Scotty. I don't care what anyone else says. I care what scripture says. If other people agree. great, if they don't thats alright too. My goal is to find out what scripture says.

EG:
listen man okay?

Titus and the boyz destroying the city are mentioned in Daneil 9 but are not prophesied as FALLING WITHIN THE 70 WEEKS.

Jesus decreed her fate inside the 70 weeks....Titus carried it out 37 years later; EXACTLY AS JESUS SAID - ALL THESE THINGS SHALL COME UPON THIS GENERATION (those living when He was rejected).



it's now or never.
for everybody EG.

i'm gonna do another Noahide Laws thread tomorrow to show you whey they injected the dispy Leaven into the church....

The times of the gentile is not yet fullfilled. They wars are still going. No one has made a covenant with anyone yet. The temple is not rebuilt yet. and the abomination has not occured yet. Until these things Since they have not happened. Dan has not been fullfilled.

Still love ya though

 

[zone]

Ok here goes. Back to the fun with Zone

Yeah it was always a remnant. There still is a few problems.

1. The remnant is kept So God can keep his promise.
2. This does not respond to what I said about what Daniel prayed about and what he was asking for (Context)

16 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. 17 Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

At this time, Gods people was Isreal.

Why was Daniel praying?

2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the LORD through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
3 Then I set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes. 4 And I prayed to the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, 5 we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 6 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.
8 “O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. 10 We have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. 11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem. (THE FIRST TIME)
13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 14 Therefore the LORD has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the LORD our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

As we can see. the context of the prayer of Daniel is the nation of Israel. Who the prophet Jeremiah said would have 70 to repent. Daniel sees the 70 years is almost up and prays to God on behalf of his people and his city

EG - he's received a prophesy.it is future to him.

the PROMISE of restoration FROM BABYLON back to Jerusalem (at which time the Ultimate Promise would be Revealed in All HIS GLORY) was that it would take 70 weeks. and indeed it did. Jesus Christ is THE MOST HOLY in Daniel 9.

the vision, the stuff promised to take place within the 70 weeks, DO NOT START until the decree by Cyrus to GO BACK AND REBUILD.

that's your start point.

According the the law. If Israel followed God, God would bless them and they would live in peace. If they did not. God would judge them and have foriegn armies come in, tear down their sanctuaries and make them prisoners.

Daniel is NOT asking about eternal salvation. He is asking God to have mercy on Israel, And restore them to their land, and restore the great city Jerusalem.

correct.
BUT: what was the TRUE PROMISE?

what was the ULTIMATE PROMISE?

WHAT WERE ALL THOSE TYPES REALLY FOR?

now, the children of israel got EXACTLY WHAT WAS PROMISED.

Cyrus gave the decree, some returned and rebuilt, there were troublous times, nevertheless up it went.........then what happened?

JESUS CAME....right on time.

and, who was in place just in time to CRUCIFY HIM, exactly as prophesied in genesis to satan?

the SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN. the Babylonian cult of the Pharisees (who were something NEW which came OUT OF BABYLON TO JERUSALEM - rabbis....sages) was there to BRUISE HIS HEEL.

Jesus came, the Old Covenant was superceded by the New, and the Old Temple System was completely torn down.

if some israelites rejected Him (as it was prophesied they would - a remnant will be saved), who are we to RESET that series of events to squeeze in jewish universalism, and where did such an idea come from?

Since eternal salvation is not the context here. But the restoration of the nation of Israel and the city. The answer sent to Daniel by God will deal with this issue. Not eternal life or salvation of anyone.

So any response which says daniel 9 is fulfilled because of salvation is invalid. Because this is not what Daniel was even asking for.

it doesn't MATTER what Daniel was asking for.
what matters is whqt Go said was going to happen, then its our job to find out if it did indeed happen.

of course it did.

Again. Daniel was not asking for his people to be saved. he was asking for God to be merciful to them and for them to repent so they can be returned to the land.

which He was merciful, and they did return.
then what happened?

THE PROMISE CAME.

Ad 70 was 30 years past the end of the 69th week. No one made a covenant with Isreal. There were not many wars which happened between the 69th and 70 week when the abomination occures.

26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

JESUS
not killed because he deserved it, He did it for daniel's people (and the gentiles), just like Daniel was told.

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

TITUS AND SOLDIERS vs THE JEWISH REVOLT/WARS = DESOLATION.
this does NOT say Titus comes within the 70 weeks. it says the DECREE of desolation will be will be consummated (sentence carried out) by him.

which it was.....within that very generation (Mtthw 24)

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

BACK TO JESUS AGAIN.
the word THEN is NOT meaning then as in NEXT...it means AT THAT TIME....

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

TITUS.
37 years AFTER the 70th week ended.

we see a few things which happen after the 69th week. or the 62 week + 1 week.

1. Messiah is killed.
2. City and sanctuary is destroyed which will remain destroyed until the end of war desolations are determined. (end of war desolations are not completed, for the sanctuary has not been rebuilt yet.
3. Someone will confirm a covenant. The temple will be rebuilt, and szacrifice as per law will begin again (Israel is still in unbelief)
4. In the middle of the 70th week, He will commit the abomination of desolation.
5. We have the consumation poured out on the desolate (the great tribulation. As Jesus said, as has never been seen before, and shall never be seen after)

Ah, But here I can not see in the prophesy. The prophesy states messiah will be cut off at the END of the 69th week. Not in the middle of the 70th week. He is cut of before the begining of the 70th week.

NO!
you got it right the frist time:

"we see a few things which happen after the 69th week."

the ONLY thing that follows AFTER the 69th week is the 70th week.

Everything you said about the end or fullness of the gentiles is correct. But then youi missed an important point.

1. The blindness of Isreal only happens UNTIL this time period. THEN all ISREAL WILL BE SAVED. Just as the prophesy says:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Paul is quoting an OT prophesy of the coming Messiah.
he either Came and Finished His work or He didn't.

and where did he come from? Zion!

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Matthew 21:5
"Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'"

jacob who heard and received has his sins forgiven and is granted everlasting Righteousness through Jesus Christ....just like the gentiles.

He went to them FIRST.

the Gospel went to them FIRST.

the fullness of the gentiles is SIMPLY the first opening up of the Holy Spirit and salvation under The Covenant to the gentiles.

already happened bud.

If Israels blindness is only in part until the fullness of the Gentiles is completed. Then it is logical to believe then the blinders will be removed, and as Paul said. ALL Israel will repent and be saved.

welp, we got a problem....
its either a remnant or jewish universalism.

its either salvation and adding to the Church daily throughout History or we need 2 Covenants in place, 2 people, and a 1,000 year reign on earth back under Moses.

Still love ya though

love ya too my brother.
zoney.

 

[Scotth1960]

no it doesn't.
one short chapter in revelation mentions a period symbolically called a thousand years.

no apostles in scripture or any early creeds say any such thing.

john was shown a series of visions in Rev.
if you don't understand them , that's your prob bud.

Rev 20 is the only place a thousand years is mentioned, and dispos have invented a whole eschatological system around it.

if you're not "dispensationalist", then what does Jesus need a literal 1,000 years with sinful flesh and glorifed saints co-existing in a restored Mosaic system years for?

Dominionism...same animal, different stripes.

Amen, zone. Amillennialism is the clear teaching of the historic Church, as summed up in the Constantinople Creed of 381 AD, "Of Whose [Christ's] Kingdom there is no end (there shall be no end)". Take care. God bless. In Erie PA USA July 5, 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington
PS Christ's Kingdom is "not of this world".

 

[4runner]

Amen, zone. Amillennialism is the clear teaching of the historic Church, as summed up in the Constantinople Creed of 381 AD, "Of Whose [Christ's] Kingdom there is no end (there shall be no end)". Take care. God bless. In Erie PA USA July 5, 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington
PS Christ's Kingdom is "not of this world".

False.

What is Premillennialism?​

by Michael J. Vlach, Ph.D.​

Premillennialism (or Chiliasm) is a theological position that attempts to address the relationship of the second coming of Jesus Christ with the promised 1000-year kingdom that is mentioned in Revelation 20:1–6.

In short, Premillennialism is the view that the second coming of Christ will occur before the establishment of the millennium (the word millennium is Latin for “one-thousand years”). The prefix “pre” means before; thus, the second coming of Christ will take place “before” the millennium begins.

Those who are premillennialists assert that in the end times there will be a Tribulation Period in which an Antichrist will emerge and God will pour out His wrath upon the world. At the end of this Tribulation, Jesus will return visibly and bodily to earth to defeat Satan and the Antichrist, and then He will establish a millennial kingdom on the earth. At this time, those who died earlier as believers will receive glorified bodies and reign with Christ. Those believers who survive the Tribulation will also reign with Christ. During this period, Satan will be bound and thrown into a pit. At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be released and will orchestrate a final rebellion against God. He will be defeated and sent permanently to the lake of fire.

Most premillennialists view the millennial kingdom as covering a literal 1000 years, but some view the 1000 years of Revelation 20:1–6 as representative of a long period of time. All premillennialists, though, assert that the millennium is an intermediate kingdom that will give way to the Eternal Kingdom (or Eternal State) which will be the final destination and state for all believers.

Unlike other views of the millennium like Amillennialism and Postmillennialism, Premillennialism views the millennium of Revelation 20:1–6 as being fulfilled in the future. The other two perspectives view the Millennium as somehow being in operation now in this period between the two comings of Christ.

Biblical Support for Premillennialism
Premillennialism is based on a literal and chronological reading of the Book of Revelation. Revelation 19 describes the return of Jesus Christ to defeat His enemies. Revelation 20:1–6 tells of the 1000-year reign of Christ. And then Revelation 21–22 describes the New Heavens and New Earth that begin shortly after the millennium. A literal reading, therefore, indicates that a millennial kingdom comes after the present age but before the final Eternal Kingdom.

Although Revelation 20 is the only passage in the Bible that explicitly mentions a 1000-year reign of Christ before the Eternal Kingdom, some premillennialists believe there are Old Testament passages that are consistent with the idea of an intermediate kingdom after the present age but before the Eternal Kingdom. For instance, Isaiah 65:20 states: “No more shall there be in it an infant that lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.” This passage speaks of longevity of life that is not true of the present age, but it also mentions the presence of death which will not be true of the Eternal Kingdom either. Thus, premillennialists understand passages such as this to refer to an intermediate kingdom of Messiah. Zechariah 14:5–17 is another passage used in support of Premillennialism. Here the Lord is said to be King over all the earth, but there is still disobedience and rebellion on the part of some nations. According to premillennialists, both these conditions can only occur in an intermediate kingdom between the present age and the Eternal Kingdom.

Premillennialists also point out that the promised function of reigning with Christ is proof of Premillennialism. Revelation 20:1–6 promises that believers will reign with Christ for 1000 years, but nowhere in the New Testament is it stated that Christians are already reigning with Christ. Thus, this reigning with Christ must be future.

Two Forms of Premillennialism
There are two forms or variations of Premillennialism—Dispensational Premillennialism and Historic Premillennialism.

The main difference between these two forms of Premillennialism is the emphasis that each gives to the nation Israel during the Millennium. Dispensational Premillennialists hold that the nation Israel will be saved and restored to a place of preeminence in the Millennium. Thus, Israel will have a special function of service in the Millennium that is different from that of the Church or saved Gentiles.

Most Historic Premillennialists, on the other hand, hold that the nation Israel will undergo a national salvation immediately before the Millennium is established, but there will be no national restoration of Israel. Thus, the nation Israel will not have a special role or function that is distinct from the Church.

Another difference is that most Dispensational Premillennialists hold that the millennium is for a literal 1000 years, while some Historic Premillennialists assert that the 1000 years is figurative for a long period of time.

Premillennialism in Church History
The doctrine of Premillennialism has strong support in church history. In fact, Premillennialism was the prevailing millennial view for the first 300 years of church history. As the historian Philip Schaff states, “The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, 2:614).

In the early church, Premillennialism was well represented by Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactantius. Papias’s belief in Premillennialism is especially significant since he was a disciple of Polycarp who in turn was a disciple of the Apostle John who penned the statements about a 1000-year reign of Christ in his Book of Revelation.

Through the influence of important church fathers such as Eusebius and Augustine, belief in Premillennialism waned significantly around the fifth century. With some exceptions, most in the Christian Church during the Medieval and Reformation eras held to Amillennialism and the view that the millennium was being fulfilled in a spiritual manner in the present age. However, the last 150 years has witnessed a strong resurgence of Premillennialism. Much of this can be attributed to the rise in popularity of Dispensationalism which affirms a future 1000-year reign of Christ upon the earth.

 

[4runner]

A major difference of historic and dispensational premillennialism is the view of the church in relation to Israel. Historics do not see as sharp a distinction between Israel and the church as the dispensationalists do, but instead view believers of all ages as part of one group, now revealed as the body of Christ. Thus, historic premillennialists see no issue with the church going through the Great Tribulation, and so they do not need a separate pre-tribulational rapture of some believers as the dispensational system requires.

Historic premillennialism draws its name from the fact that the early Church Fathers (e.g. Ireneaus [140–203], who as a disciple of Polycarp, who had been a disciple of the Apostle John, Justin Martyr [100–165], and Papias [80–155]) held to this theology. Historic premillennialism was a popular view amongst Protestant Christians[citation needed] until the rise of dispensationalism in the 19th and 20th centuries. Proponents of historic premillennialism include Baptists John Gill, Charles Spurgeon, Benjamin Wills Newton, a contemporary and fierce theological rival to John Nelson Darby the father of dispensationalism, George Eldon Ladd[ Clarence Bass and Presbyterians Francis Schaeffer, Gordon Clark, and James Montgomery Boice.

 

[zone]

but nowhere in the New Testament is it stated that Christians are already reigning with Christ. Thus, this reigning with Christ must be future..

1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 5:10
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.


the problem lies in DOMINIONIST THINKING. just like the jews, we are looking for a temporal king...ain't gonna happen.

Christ's Kingdom is not ULTIMATELY of this world.

we are members of His Kingdom, serving ON EARTH, to help transfer SUBJECTS (saved sinners) from this world to the next.

anyways......

these ideas say Jesus is NOT KING NOW...or that He is KING but is on HOLD for some reason (usually th reason given is that national israel rejected Him 2000 years ago...no matter the remnant is saved just like He promised).

Luke 11:20
But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.

Matthew 12:28
But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

 

[4runner]

Dispensational Premillennialism Historic Premillennialism Overview 1. Distinctive Features and Emphases: a. Dispensationalists argue for the necessity of the literal interpretation of all of the prophetic portions of Scripture. Charles Ryrie makes this point very clearly:

When the principles of literal interpretation both in regard to general and special hermeneutics are followed, the result the premillennial system of doctrine... If one interprets literally, he arrives at the premillennial system. This means that all promises made to David and Abraham under the Old Covenant are to be literally fulfilled in the future millennial age.

b. Dispensationalists insist that God has two redemptive plans, one for national Israel, and one for Gentiles during the "church age." This presupposition forms the basis for the dispensational hermeneutic. As John Walvoord states regarding the dispensational hermeneutic, "Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs."
c. There is a "rapture" of believers when Jesus Christ secretly returns to earth before the seven year tribulation period begins (the seventieth week of Daniel, cf. Daniel 9:24-27). Believers do not experience the persecution of the Anti-Christ who rises to prominence during this "tribulation period." The Biblical data dealing with the time of tribulation is referring to unbelieving Israel, not the church. Therefore, church age, or the "age of grace," is to be seen as that period of time in which God is dealing with Gentiles prior to the coming of the kingdom of God during the millennium.
d. The visible and physical second coming of Christ occurs after the great tribulation. Those who are converted to Christ during the tribulation, including Jews (the 144,000) who turn to Christ, go on into the millennium to re-populate the earth. Glorified believers rule with Christ during his future reign.
e. Jesus came to earth bringing with him an "offer" of the kingdom to the Jews, who rejected him. God then turned to dealing with the Gentiles -- thus, the church age is a parenthesis of sorts. The rapture is the next event to occur in Biblical prophecy. The signs of the end of the age (i.e., the birth of the nation of Israel, the revival of the Roman empire predicted in Daniel as seen through the emergence of the EEC [common market], the impending Russian-Arab invasion of Israel, etc.) all point to the immediacy of the secret return of Christ for his church. Antichrist is awaiting his revelation once the believing church is removed.
f. The millennium is marked by a return to Old Testament temple worship and sacrifice to commemorate the sacrifice of Christ. At the end of the millennium, the "great white throne" judgement occurs, and Satan and all unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire. There is the creation of a new heaven and earth.
1. Distinctive Features and Emphases: a. While often popularly confused with "dispensational premillennialism" with but a mere disagreement as to the timing of the "rapture," historic premillennialism is, in actuality, a completely different eschatological system, largely rejecting the whole dispensational understanding of redemptive history.
b. The basic features of historic premillennialism are as follows. When Jesus began his public ministry the kingdom of God was manifest through His ministry. Upon His ascension into heaven and the "Gift of the Spirit" at Pentecost, the kingdom is present through the Spirit, until the end of the age, which is marked by the return of Christ to the earth in judgement. During the period immediately preceding the return of Christ, there is great apostasy and tribulation.
C. After the return of Christ, there will be a period of 1000 years (the millennium separating the "first" resurrection from the "second" resurrection. Satan will be bound, and the kingdom will consummated, that is, made visible during this period.
d. At the end of the millennial period, Satan will be loosed and there will be a massive rebellion (of "Gog and Magog"), immediately preceding the "second" resurrection or final judgement. After this, there will be the creation of a new Heaven and Earth.


Historic Premillennialism
1. Distinctive Features and Emphases: a. While often popularly confused with "dispensational premillennialism" with but a mere disagreement as to the timing of the "rapture," historic premillennialism is, in actuality, a completely different eschatological system, largely rejecting the whole dispensational understanding of redemptive history.
b. The basic features of historic premillennialism are as follows. When Jesus began his public ministry the kingdom of God was manifest through His ministry. Upon His ascension into heaven and the "Gift of the Spirit" at Pentecost, the kingdom is present through the Spirit, until the end of the age, which is marked by the return of Christ to the earth in judgement. During the period immediately preceding the return of Christ, there is great apostasy and tribulation.
C. After the return of Christ, there will be a period of 1000 years (the millennium separating the "first" resurrection from the "second" resurrection. Satan will be bound, and the kingdom will consummated, that is, made visible during this period.
d. At the end of the millennial period, Satan will be loosed and there will be a massive rebellion (of "Gog and Magog"), immediately preceding the "second" resurrection or final judgement. After this, there will be the creation of a new Heaven and Earth.

 

[4runner]

1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 5:10
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

These scripture prove me right and you wrong


the problem lies in DOMINIONIST THINKING. just like the jews, we are looking for a temporal king...ain't gonna happen.

these ideas say Jesus is NOT KING NOW.

Only to your demented point of view

 

[zone]

The basic features of historic premillennialism are as follows.

When Jesus began his public ministry the kingdom of God was manifest through His ministry.

CHECK

Upon His ascension into heaven and the "Gift of the Spirit" at Pentecost, the kingdom is present through the Spirit, until the end of the age, which is marked by the return of Christ to the earth in judgement.

CHECK

During the period immediately preceding the return of Christ, there is great apostasy and tribulation.

CHECK

C. After the return of Christ, there will be a period of 1000 years (the millennium separating the "first" resurrection from the "second" resurrection. Satan will be bound, and the kingdom will consummated, that is, made visible during this period

HUH?

what happened to this part?

Upon His ascension into heaven and the "Gift of the Spirit" at Pentecost, the kingdom is present through the Spirit, until the end of the age, which is marked by the return of Christ to the earth in judgement.

ya, the old "two of everything" separated by 1,000 years in the eschaton cuz we can't understand Rev 20.

d. At the end of the millennial period, Satan will be loosed and there will be a massive rebellion (of "Gog and Magog"), immediately preceding the "second" resurrection or final judgement. After this, there will be the creation of a new Heaven and Earth.

how many rebellions are there led by satan?
how many times is he bound then released?

 

[zone]

Only to your demented point of view

you and i are done talking.
you remind me another poster here. *shiver*

have funin dispensational la-la land.