Dominionism and the NAR
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Historic premillennialism draws its name from the fact that many of the early Church Fathers (i.e. Ireneaus [140-203], who as a disciple of Polycarp, who had been an disciple of the apostle of John, Justin Martyr [100-165], and Papias [80-155]), apparently believed and taught that there would be a visible kingdom of God upon the earth, after the return of Christ.
A
now here is what I don't get about this conversation... <want some more popcorn?>
ok if Premillienialism does not kick into affect until Jesus comes back. and Ammillenialism says that we are waiting for Jesus to come back and there is no 1000 year reign, then why is it important to figure out which one is right.
why not wait until Jesus comes back and tells us if He wants people to reign for 1000 years and then watch tribulations and deception of the earth again when Satan is released or rule with Him for eternity?
both say we are awaiting for the return of Jesus. well personally if Jesus comes back I plan on following orders concerning it all and dominion on earth is not as appealing as eternity in Heaven but either way as long as Jesus is with us does it really matter?
hmmm i think the issue of dominionsim and other such topics might be more pressing to spell out and define and refute using the Bible verses estalogy but hey we can seat back and watch the fireworks....
hi joey nice to meet you.
did you know baby kangaroos are called Joeys?
ok if Premillienialism does not kick into affect until Jesus comes back. and Ammillenialism says that we are waiting for Jesus to come back and there is no 1000 year reign, then why is it important to figure out which one is right.
why not wait until Jesus comes back and tells us if He wants people to reign for 1000 years and then watch tribulations and deception of the earth again when Satan is released or rule with Him for eternity?
both say we are awaiting for the return of Jesus. well personally if Jesus comes back I plan on following orders concerning it all and dominion on earth is not as appealing as eternity in Heaven but either way as long as Jesus is with us does it really matter?
hmmm i think the issue of dominionsim and other such topics might be more pressing to spell out and define and refute using the Bible verses estalogy but hey we can seat back and watch the fireworks....
hi joey nice to meet you.
did you know baby kangaroos are called Joeys?
E
1. Yes it is future to him.
2. It is an answer to his prayer.
3. He prayed for Gods mercy on his nation. Not for his nations salvation.
4. He prayed for the restoration of his city and return of its glory.
why did you not even comment on these points?
By the way. Daniel mentioned the law and how God was doing what he was doing to the children of Israel according to the law he gave. can you show where in the law Daniel was talking about. this should help us in understanding what Daniel was praying for and why.
Actually it is more in depth than this. The command to restore and rebuild jerusalem (many commands were given to restore and rebuild. but the command to restore and rebuild the city was the last one given). We can take history by knowing what date this is. and if we count exactly 69 weeks of years. We come to the DAY Jesus entered jerusalem on a donkey. When he was saddened and told the people if they only knew what day that was. They would have recieved. But they did not so now they are doomed.
correct.
BUT: what was the TRUE PROMISE?
I asked you for this. But since you brought it up.. here goes.
3 ‘If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them, 4 then I will give you rain in its season, the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
5 Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing;
you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
6 I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none will make you afraid;
I will rid the land of evil beasts,
and the sword will not go through your land.
7 You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you.
8 Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight;
your enemies shall fall by the sword before you.
9 ‘For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you.
10 You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.
11 I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you.
12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people.
13 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that you should not be their slaves;
I have broken the bands of your yoke and made you walk upright.
The is the promise God made to the children of Israel. Not to the church. Not to any other nation. It is a promise God made with the literal decendants of Abraham through Jacob.
It has nothing to do with salvation of any person. it has to do with Israel living in the land God promised to give abraham. If they walked with God, God promised to do all these things.
God never made this promise to any other nation (despite those who say Israel no longer has access to this covenant, and the so called "client nation of God" now is assured these blessings, of which I grew up learning but now reject) This was only Given to Israel.
See above. I would love to live in a nation which could have this covenant. But I don't. Nor am I a jew. I will never see peace like they were assured. I have peace in my heart. But I will never live not fearing for my or my families safety. Israel was promised that. No other nation recieved this promise.
Again. Salvation of any soul is not at issue here. This is Gods covenant with his nation. The literal children of Israel. And this is the covenant Daniel spoke of.
Why was Israel where they were? Why was daniel praying for them?
14 ‘But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant,
16 I also will do this to you:
I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.
And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies.
Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you.
18 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 I will break the pride of your power;
I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze.
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain;
for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit.
21 ‘Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number;
and your highways shall be desolate.
23 ‘And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me,
24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword against you that will execute the vengeance of the covenant;
when you are gathered together within your cities I will send pestilence among you;
and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26 When I have cut off your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall bring back your bread by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied.
27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
38 You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. 39 And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands;
also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.
This is why Daniel was in Babylon at this time. Israel was being Judged. Daniel was praying for Gods mercy. To keep his promise. And restore his people and his city. That is context of daniel 9 Zone. Also notice that these judgments were sent in full again on 70 AD. Jerusalem and the temple was literally destroyed. And all its people were scattered among the nations. Just as God said would happen.
But what did God say would happen if Israel repented?
40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember MY COVENANT with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them;
they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes.
44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the LORD their God.
45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:
I am the LORD.’”
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the LORD made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
This is why there is a remnant left. Gods covenant was with the nation. He promised not to destroy them. That is why Israel is the only nation on earth who was utterly destroyed. but as a nationality is still in tact.
Yes it did. The command was given. And even though Israel was still in sin;. God allowed them to return after the saabath of 70 years was given to the land, as told in lev 26, and prophesied by jeremiah. in which Daniel was praying for.
Yes. At the end of the 69th week. Messiah wasd Cut Of just as prophesied.
Ah, But David was not talking about Gods covenant with mankind. But his covenant with Jacob, which concerned the nation of Israel. Not the salvation of the world, or any soul. You are thinking of the wrong covenant.
'God made covenants with mankind, in how they were saved. God gave Israel the law and priesthood. But even gentiles could partake in this covenant.
The covenant Daniel is talking about is only the one which concerns the abrahamic covenant concerning his children and the land promised to give to them. (spoken of by God to moses in lev 26) One must separate the two.
It came from scripture. God made covenants between himself, and between and his nation. Theyu are not interchangable, Nor are the covenants made with national israel transferable to other nations or peoples.
This is where people run into trouble. they want to make it one big covenant. which it is not.
ok now sis. this really surprises me coming from you. since when do we remove context from scripture in order to interpret it. It does not matter what Daniel was asking for? Funny that the angel did not think so.
20 Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God, 21 yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. 23 At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:
The whole 70 week prophesy was Gods answer to daniels prayer of supplication for HIS PEOPLE and HIS CITY. we can not interpret Dan 9 without this context or we will risk misinterpretation.
you are however right that we do need to see if it has been fulfilled or not. You think it has. I do not. Hopefully now you see even more reasons I can not agree with you.
We have no disagreement here. Yes jesus was cut off. But not for himself. Or for Israel. But for the world. Gabriel did not mention to Daniel the messiah was being cut of for his people. I do not believe daniel believed this is what he meant. Nor do I. Gabriel was just letting Daniel know events which were happening on the way to God making an end of Israles sins, and restoring them according the the covenant made between God and moses. Which Daniel was praying for, and Which I posted above. Thats all.
The abomination of desolation is a term used to describe someone, anyone, entering the holies of holies of the temple and sacrificing an abominable thing. This was done by Antiochus epiphanies within the first 69 weeks when he defiled the temple with a pig, which was an abomination according to the law. As pigs were seen as unclean. Titus did NOT DO THIS. Thus he did not commit this abomination. It has not yet happened.
Remember what Jesus said, "when you see the abomination spoken of by Daniel standing in the holy place) Run! God did not allow Israel to run in AD 70. he took them by the roman army and did what he promised to do in lev 26.
[/quote]
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
BACK TO JESUS AGAIN.
the word THEN is NOT meaning then as in NEXT...it means AT THAT TIME....
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
TITUS.
37 years AFTER the 70th week ended.
[/quote]
No, The covenant is a peace covenant, Isreal is allowed to restart their sacrifice. which they (even to this day) are not allowed to do. It is this temple which is made desolate by the abomination of the future prince of the people who destroy the city. Titus destroyed the city. The future prince will come from this people. not him. he is the people who destroyed.
Actually it would be 30 years after in chronology. Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69th week. which means the last week would have immediatly followed the 69th week.
Thats alot of wars and desolations. Isreal was not at war. they were slaves. Rome was not at war. they conquered and had no enemies. There was no wars during the 70th week you want to put it.
2. It is an answer to his prayer.
3. He prayed for Gods mercy on his nation. Not for his nations salvation.
4. He prayed for the restoration of his city and return of its glory.
why did you not even comment on these points?
By the way. Daniel mentioned the law and how God was doing what he was doing to the children of Israel according to the law he gave. can you show where in the law Daniel was talking about. this should help us in understanding what Daniel was praying for and why.
Actually it is more in depth than this. The command to restore and rebuild jerusalem (many commands were given to restore and rebuild. but the command to restore and rebuild the city was the last one given). We can take history by knowing what date this is. and if we count exactly 69 weeks of years. We come to the DAY Jesus entered jerusalem on a donkey. When he was saddened and told the people if they only knew what day that was. They would have recieved. But they did not so now they are doomed.
correct.
BUT: what was the TRUE PROMISE?
I asked you for this. But since you brought it up.. here goes.
3 ‘If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them, 4 then I will give you rain in its season, the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
5 Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing;
you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
6 I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none will make you afraid;
I will rid the land of evil beasts,
and the sword will not go through your land.
7 You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you.
8 Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight;
your enemies shall fall by the sword before you.
9 ‘For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you.
10 You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.
11 I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you.
12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people.
13 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that you should not be their slaves;
I have broken the bands of your yoke and made you walk upright.
The is the promise God made to the children of Israel. Not to the church. Not to any other nation. It is a promise God made with the literal decendants of Abraham through Jacob.
It has nothing to do with salvation of any person. it has to do with Israel living in the land God promised to give abraham. If they walked with God, God promised to do all these things.
God never made this promise to any other nation (despite those who say Israel no longer has access to this covenant, and the so called "client nation of God" now is assured these blessings, of which I grew up learning but now reject) This was only Given to Israel.
See above. I would love to live in a nation which could have this covenant. But I don't. Nor am I a jew. I will never see peace like they were assured. I have peace in my heart. But I will never live not fearing for my or my families safety. Israel was promised that. No other nation recieved this promise.
Again. Salvation of any soul is not at issue here. This is Gods covenant with his nation. The literal children of Israel. And this is the covenant Daniel spoke of.
Why was Israel where they were? Why was daniel praying for them?
14 ‘But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant,
16 I also will do this to you:
I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.
And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies.
Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you.
18 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 I will break the pride of your power;
I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze.
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain;
for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit.
21 ‘Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number;
and your highways shall be desolate.
23 ‘And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me,
24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword against you that will execute the vengeance of the covenant;
when you are gathered together within your cities I will send pestilence among you;
and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26 When I have cut off your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall bring back your bread by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied.
27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
38 You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. 39 And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands;
also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.
This is why Daniel was in Babylon at this time. Israel was being Judged. Daniel was praying for Gods mercy. To keep his promise. And restore his people and his city. That is context of daniel 9 Zone. Also notice that these judgments were sent in full again on 70 AD. Jerusalem and the temple was literally destroyed. And all its people were scattered among the nations. Just as God said would happen.
But what did God say would happen if Israel repented?
40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember MY COVENANT with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them;
they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes.
44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the LORD their God.
45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:
I am the LORD.’”
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the LORD made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
This is why there is a remnant left. Gods covenant was with the nation. He promised not to destroy them. That is why Israel is the only nation on earth who was utterly destroyed. but as a nationality is still in tact.
Yes it did. The command was given. And even though Israel was still in sin;. God allowed them to return after the saabath of 70 years was given to the land, as told in lev 26, and prophesied by jeremiah. in which Daniel was praying for.
Yes. At the end of the 69th week. Messiah wasd Cut Of just as prophesied.
Ah, But David was not talking about Gods covenant with mankind. But his covenant with Jacob, which concerned the nation of Israel. Not the salvation of the world, or any soul. You are thinking of the wrong covenant.
'God made covenants with mankind, in how they were saved. God gave Israel the law and priesthood. But even gentiles could partake in this covenant.
The covenant Daniel is talking about is only the one which concerns the abrahamic covenant concerning his children and the land promised to give to them. (spoken of by God to moses in lev 26) One must separate the two.
It came from scripture. God made covenants between himself, and between and his nation. Theyu are not interchangable, Nor are the covenants made with national israel transferable to other nations or peoples.
This is where people run into trouble. they want to make it one big covenant. which it is not.
ok now sis. this really surprises me coming from you. since when do we remove context from scripture in order to interpret it. It does not matter what Daniel was asking for? Funny that the angel did not think so.
20 Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God, 21 yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. 23 At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:
The whole 70 week prophesy was Gods answer to daniels prayer of supplication for HIS PEOPLE and HIS CITY. we can not interpret Dan 9 without this context or we will risk misinterpretation.
you are however right that we do need to see if it has been fulfilled or not. You think it has. I do not. Hopefully now you see even more reasons I can not agree with you.
We have no disagreement here. Yes jesus was cut off. But not for himself. Or for Israel. But for the world. Gabriel did not mention to Daniel the messiah was being cut of for his people. I do not believe daniel believed this is what he meant. Nor do I. Gabriel was just letting Daniel know events which were happening on the way to God making an end of Israles sins, and restoring them according the the covenant made between God and moses. Which Daniel was praying for, and Which I posted above. Thats all.
The abomination of desolation is a term used to describe someone, anyone, entering the holies of holies of the temple and sacrificing an abominable thing. This was done by Antiochus epiphanies within the first 69 weeks when he defiled the temple with a pig, which was an abomination according to the law. As pigs were seen as unclean. Titus did NOT DO THIS. Thus he did not commit this abomination. It has not yet happened.
Remember what Jesus said, "when you see the abomination spoken of by Daniel standing in the holy place) Run! God did not allow Israel to run in AD 70. he took them by the roman army and did what he promised to do in lev 26.
[/quote]
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
BACK TO JESUS AGAIN.
the word THEN is NOT meaning then as in NEXT...it means AT THAT TIME....
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
TITUS.
37 years AFTER the 70th week ended.
[/quote]
No, The covenant is a peace covenant, Isreal is allowed to restart their sacrifice. which they (even to this day) are not allowed to do. It is this temple which is made desolate by the abomination of the future prince of the people who destroy the city. Titus destroyed the city. The future prince will come from this people. not him. he is the people who destroyed.
Actually it would be 30 years after in chronology. Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69th week. which means the last week would have immediatly followed the 69th week.
Thats alot of wars and desolations. Isreal was not at war. they were slaves. Rome was not at war. they conquered and had no enemies. There was no wars during the 70th week you want to put it.
E
Yeah he was. But again you did not look at the preceding verses. When the times of the gentiles are completed and ALL ISREAL IS SAVED. The end of Gentile has come, THEN Israel as a nation is saved.
Is all isreal saved today? Were they all saved 2000 years ago?
Thgis has not happened yet. The prophesy is that God will save ALL ISREAL. Has nothing to do with God saving the world.
Sorry, Can not agree. Context again sis. When the time of the gentiles has come to completion. ALL ISREAL WILL BE SAVED.
You have it backwards here. yes it went to Isreal first. But this is not what Paul says. He said Israel is blind, until gentiles time have come to an end. Israel was blind before it went to the gentiles. They have been blind ever since.
There is no problem if one realizes God made a covenant with the world, which messiah fulfilled in 33 AD. And God made separate covenants with the nation of isreal. which has NOTHING to do with salvation. But them as a people and their land. It is not universalism. Even when Israel was in her land. not all were saved. And in this future kiongdom. Even though all Israel is saved at the beginning. I do not believe they will all stay to be saved. Although I could be wrong here
Still love ya sis!!
Is all isreal saved today? Were they all saved 2000 years ago?
Thgis has not happened yet. The prophesy is that God will save ALL ISREAL. Has nothing to do with God saving the world.
Sorry, Can not agree. Context again sis. When the time of the gentiles has come to completion. ALL ISREAL WILL BE SAVED.
You have it backwards here. yes it went to Isreal first. But this is not what Paul says. He said Israel is blind, until gentiles time have come to an end. Israel was blind before it went to the gentiles. They have been blind ever since.
There is no problem if one realizes God made a covenant with the world, which messiah fulfilled in 33 AD. And God made separate covenants with the nation of isreal. which has NOTHING to do with salvation. But them as a people and their land. It is not universalism. Even when Israel was in her land. not all were saved. And in this future kiongdom. Even though all Israel is saved at the beginning. I do not believe they will all stay to be saved. Although I could be wrong here
Still love ya sis!!
hi EG.
i've read all of this post carefully....
i truly do not think you understand the gravity of rejecting Jesus Christ.
i also see that dispensationalism is very much embedded in your theology. that's okay : i still love you
you are back in temporal things, looking for a kingdom of this world for the jews - the same thing they looked for, rejecting jesus in the process, and receiving condemnation.
it was the reason they cried out for BARRABAS.
he was a revolutionary...a subversive: a murderer willing to take the "kingdom", or the "land", by force treachery and through bloodshed....there is a very specific reason he was presented by Pilate, with Jesus, to the people..
the choice was made. Barrabas.
those jews who died with 'Crucify Him' on their lips will not be raised into flesh bodies in a future millennium so they can "get right with God", EG.
there's no other provision made. there just isn't.
the temporal Land promises were completely fulfilled, as God kept His part of the Covenant: IF they obeyed, He would....IF they did not, He would not....
but over and over they were ejected from the land: because it was and is GOD's LAND. His Land.
we'll get to this more later - it is a very serious error to read a future temporal Land promise in this world to anyone: this world is coming to and end: the temporal land promises are and were TYPES.
i did.
i addessed each point: but you are looking for a flesh provision for israel: i see their provision in Christ alone....Scripture testifies of this also - everywhere.
God has kept every promise He ever made to them EG. and He will do so by bringing many sons to glory. but jewish universalism based on a distorted hermeneutic which places israel at the center of Redemptive History rather than Christ is not good.
what i said was: what matters is what GOD SAID was coming. that is all that matters EG. we understand Daniel by seeing what God is saying, and by seeing it FROM THIS SIDE OF THE CROSS.
we'll resolve the 70th week, and you'll see there's no more provision made for anybody outside that veil being removed when turning to Christ: jew or gentile. and it must be done BEFORE the short space - that's when strong delsuion comes, and as you know afte a certain point, it no longer looks for man to repent: it is the winepress of the furiousness of God's Wrath.
unbelieving israel is not exempt from that wrath, nor eternal damnation - a close look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus reveals the same thing all the parables reveal: those who rejected Christ were judicially blinded: for good. every single parable was spoken in israel, among israelites, and are about israel: yes, we apply the same soterilogical dynamics today - but this went to THEM FIRST.
and what i find that's so frustrating with dispensationalists/christian zionists is that they skip over the fact that the church began, was built on, JEWS. how do we explain this if the jews are blinded til 2000 years in the future? one word out of place in Romans 11 and we make an entire global system out of it. incerdible, but the great irony is that in itself is warned of!
it's just astonishing to me because i never once ever saw this happening in the Bible...not from the first day i opened it, not for eight years since.
i see what has happened with the injection of dispensationalism: but it JUST IS NOT IN THERE.
IT JUST ISN'T. it's an amazingly tight and very effective overlay, but it is a counterfeit nonetheless.
Darby and Scofield really really caused great harm to the texts and have actually really hurt the jews, and Christians who are knowingly supporting the nation state of israel PHYSICALLY and TEMPORALLYtoday are in serious trouble also....they need the gospel, not land.
they need to come out of Babylon, not rebuild her (incidentally....not one single disciple of Jesus perished in 70AD...they all escaped)
anyways...i know you've heard all this before, so carrying on....
i did read everything...i just want to post a very simplistic restatement of what i have been saying.
then later to actually look closely at the various decrees to rebuild etc..., and get really precise about that 70th week: if that has been fulfilled, the whole system fails, and we have a very very serious problem...
DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK 490 YEARS
The Bible says, "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." Daniel 9:27.
Have you ever heard of the "seven-year period of great tribulation"? The whole idea is rooted in two words of the above sentence! The two words are "one week."
Supposedly, that period of "one week" applies to the final seven-year period of great tribulation at the end of time. Right now, all over planet Earth, in books, in magazines, in videos, on the radio, in seminaries, on the Internet, and at Bible prophecy conferences, Christians are talking about events that they firmly believe will occur during a final seven years of tribulation.
According to the popular interpretation of Daniel 9:27, the "he" refers to a future Antichrist who will eventually make a covenant, or peace treaty, with the Jews during the final seven years of tribulation. In the "midst" of this tribulation, this Antichrist will cause "the sacrifice … to cease." In order for the sacrifices to cease, they must have been restarted. Therefore, according to countless modern interpreters, there must be a rebuilt third Jewish temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.
1) The entire prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of "seventy weeks." This period applies to one complete, sequential block of time. This prophecy would start during the Persian period and would end during the time of the Messiah.
2) Logic requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week. If it does not, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week!
3) It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and the 70th week. No hint of this gap is found in the prophecy itself. There is no gap between the first 7 weeks and the following 62 weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and the 70th week?
4) Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a seven-year period of tribulation, or about any Antichrist.
5) The focus of this prophecy is the Messiah, not the Antichrist. Modern interpreters have applied "the people of the prince" who would come to "destroy the city and the sanctuary" (verse 26) to the Antichrist. Yet the text does not say this. In the past, that sentence has been applied to the Romans, who under Prince Titus did "destroy the city and the sanctuary" in A.D. 70.
6) "He shall confirm the covenant." Jesus Christ came "to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." Romans 15:8. Nowhere in the Bible is Antichrist ever said to make or confirm a covenant with anyone! The word "covenant" always applies to the Messiah, never to the Antichrist!
7) "He shall confirm the covenant with many." Jesus said, "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." Matthew 26:28. Jesus used the same words, because He knew that He was fulfilling Daniel 9:27!
8) "In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." The 70th week was from A.D. 27 to 34. After three and a half years of ministry, Christ died in A.D. 31, "in the midst [middle] of the week." At the moment of His death, "the veil of the temple was rent [torn] in twain from the top to the bottom." Matthew 27:51. This act of God signified that all animal sacrifices had at that moment ceased to be of value. The Great Sacrifice had been offered!
9) "For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." Jesus plainly applied this "abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15) to the time when His followers were to flee from Jerusalem before the destruction of the second temple in A.D. 70. Jesus told His 12 disciples, "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies [the Roman armies led by Prince Titus], then know that its desolation is near." Luke 21:20, emphasis added. Those disciples did "see" those very events. Christ’s very last words to the Pharisees from inside the second temple were, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Matthew 23:38. Thus Daniel’s prophecy about Jerusalem becoming "desolate" was exactly fulfilled in A.D. 70! Jesus understood this perfectly.
10) Gabriel said that the 70-week prophecy specifically applied to the Jewish people (Daniel 9:24). From A.D. 27 to A.D. 34, the disciples went only "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:6. At the end of the 70 weeks, in the year A.D. 34, Stephen was stoned by the Jewish Sanhedrin (Acts chapter 7). Then the gospel began to go to the Gentiles. In Acts chapter 9, Saul became Paul, "the apostle of the Gentiles." Romans 11:13. Then in Acts chapter 10, God gave Peter a vision revealing that it was now time to preach the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10:1-28). Read also Acts 13:46.
The explosive evidence is overwhelming! Point by point, the events of the 70th week have already been fulfilled in the past! The following eight words found in Daniel 9:27: "confirm...covenant...many...midst...sacrifice...cease... abominations...desolate": all find a perfect fulfillment in Jesus Christ and in early Christian history.
One reason why the Jewish nation as a whole failed to receive its Messiah was because its leaders and scholars failed to correctly interpret the 70-week prophecy. They failed to see Jesus Christ as the Messiah who died in the midst of the 70th week. The same thing is happening today! Amazingly, sincere Christian scholars are now misinterpreting the very same prophecy.
i've read all of this post carefully....
i truly do not think you understand the gravity of rejecting Jesus Christ.
i also see that dispensationalism is very much embedded in your theology. that's okay : i still love you
you are back in temporal things, looking for a kingdom of this world for the jews - the same thing they looked for, rejecting jesus in the process, and receiving condemnation.
it was the reason they cried out for BARRABAS.
he was a revolutionary...a subversive: a murderer willing to take the "kingdom", or the "land", by force treachery and through bloodshed....there is a very specific reason he was presented by Pilate, with Jesus, to the people..
the choice was made. Barrabas.
those jews who died with 'Crucify Him' on their lips will not be raised into flesh bodies in a future millennium so they can "get right with God", EG.
there's no other provision made. there just isn't.
the temporal Land promises were completely fulfilled, as God kept His part of the Covenant: IF they obeyed, He would....IF they did not, He would not....
but over and over they were ejected from the land: because it was and is GOD's LAND. His Land.
we'll get to this more later - it is a very serious error to read a future temporal Land promise in this world to anyone: this world is coming to and end: the temporal land promises are and were TYPES.
i did.
i addessed each point: but you are looking for a flesh provision for israel: i see their provision in Christ alone....Scripture testifies of this also - everywhere.
God has kept every promise He ever made to them EG. and He will do so by bringing many sons to glory. but jewish universalism based on a distorted hermeneutic which places israel at the center of Redemptive History rather than Christ is not good.
what i said was: what matters is what GOD SAID was coming. that is all that matters EG. we understand Daniel by seeing what God is saying, and by seeing it FROM THIS SIDE OF THE CROSS.
we'll resolve the 70th week, and you'll see there's no more provision made for anybody outside that veil being removed when turning to Christ: jew or gentile. and it must be done BEFORE the short space - that's when strong delsuion comes, and as you know afte a certain point, it no longer looks for man to repent: it is the winepress of the furiousness of God's Wrath.
unbelieving israel is not exempt from that wrath, nor eternal damnation - a close look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus reveals the same thing all the parables reveal: those who rejected Christ were judicially blinded: for good. every single parable was spoken in israel, among israelites, and are about israel: yes, we apply the same soterilogical dynamics today - but this went to THEM FIRST.
and what i find that's so frustrating with dispensationalists/christian zionists is that they skip over the fact that the church began, was built on, JEWS. how do we explain this if the jews are blinded til 2000 years in the future? one word out of place in Romans 11 and we make an entire global system out of it. incerdible, but the great irony is that in itself is warned of!
it's just astonishing to me because i never once ever saw this happening in the Bible...not from the first day i opened it, not for eight years since.
i see what has happened with the injection of dispensationalism: but it JUST IS NOT IN THERE.
IT JUST ISN'T. it's an amazingly tight and very effective overlay, but it is a counterfeit nonetheless.
Darby and Scofield really really caused great harm to the texts and have actually really hurt the jews, and Christians who are knowingly supporting the nation state of israel PHYSICALLY and TEMPORALLYtoday are in serious trouble also....they need the gospel, not land.
they need to come out of Babylon, not rebuild her (incidentally....not one single disciple of Jesus perished in 70AD...they all escaped)
anyways...i know you've heard all this before, so carrying on....
i did read everything...i just want to post a very simplistic restatement of what i have been saying.
then later to actually look closely at the various decrees to rebuild etc..., and get really precise about that 70th week: if that has been fulfilled, the whole system fails, and we have a very very serious problem...
DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK 490 YEARS
The Bible says, "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." Daniel 9:27.
Have you ever heard of the "seven-year period of great tribulation"? The whole idea is rooted in two words of the above sentence! The two words are "one week."
Supposedly, that period of "one week" applies to the final seven-year period of great tribulation at the end of time. Right now, all over planet Earth, in books, in magazines, in videos, on the radio, in seminaries, on the Internet, and at Bible prophecy conferences, Christians are talking about events that they firmly believe will occur during a final seven years of tribulation.
According to the popular interpretation of Daniel 9:27, the "he" refers to a future Antichrist who will eventually make a covenant, or peace treaty, with the Jews during the final seven years of tribulation. In the "midst" of this tribulation, this Antichrist will cause "the sacrifice … to cease." In order for the sacrifices to cease, they must have been restarted. Therefore, according to countless modern interpreters, there must be a rebuilt third Jewish temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.
1) The entire prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of "seventy weeks." This period applies to one complete, sequential block of time. This prophecy would start during the Persian period and would end during the time of the Messiah.
2) Logic requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week. If it does not, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week!
3) It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and the 70th week. No hint of this gap is found in the prophecy itself. There is no gap between the first 7 weeks and the following 62 weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and the 70th week?
4) Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a seven-year period of tribulation, or about any Antichrist.
5) The focus of this prophecy is the Messiah, not the Antichrist. Modern interpreters have applied "the people of the prince" who would come to "destroy the city and the sanctuary" (verse 26) to the Antichrist. Yet the text does not say this. In the past, that sentence has been applied to the Romans, who under Prince Titus did "destroy the city and the sanctuary" in A.D. 70.
6) "He shall confirm the covenant." Jesus Christ came "to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." Romans 15:8. Nowhere in the Bible is Antichrist ever said to make or confirm a covenant with anyone! The word "covenant" always applies to the Messiah, never to the Antichrist!
7) "He shall confirm the covenant with many." Jesus said, "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." Matthew 26:28. Jesus used the same words, because He knew that He was fulfilling Daniel 9:27!
8) "In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." The 70th week was from A.D. 27 to 34. After three and a half years of ministry, Christ died in A.D. 31, "in the midst [middle] of the week." At the moment of His death, "the veil of the temple was rent [torn] in twain from the top to the bottom." Matthew 27:51. This act of God signified that all animal sacrifices had at that moment ceased to be of value. The Great Sacrifice had been offered!
9) "For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." Jesus plainly applied this "abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15) to the time when His followers were to flee from Jerusalem before the destruction of the second temple in A.D. 70. Jesus told His 12 disciples, "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies [the Roman armies led by Prince Titus], then know that its desolation is near." Luke 21:20, emphasis added. Those disciples did "see" those very events. Christ’s very last words to the Pharisees from inside the second temple were, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Matthew 23:38. Thus Daniel’s prophecy about Jerusalem becoming "desolate" was exactly fulfilled in A.D. 70! Jesus understood this perfectly.
10) Gabriel said that the 70-week prophecy specifically applied to the Jewish people (Daniel 9:24). From A.D. 27 to A.D. 34, the disciples went only "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:6. At the end of the 70 weeks, in the year A.D. 34, Stephen was stoned by the Jewish Sanhedrin (Acts chapter 7). Then the gospel began to go to the Gentiles. In Acts chapter 9, Saul became Paul, "the apostle of the Gentiles." Romans 11:13. Then in Acts chapter 10, God gave Peter a vision revealing that it was now time to preach the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10:1-28). Read also Acts 13:46.
The explosive evidence is overwhelming! Point by point, the events of the 70th week have already been fulfilled in the past! The following eight words found in Daniel 9:27: "confirm...covenant...many...midst...sacrifice...cease... abominations...desolate": all find a perfect fulfillment in Jesus Christ and in early Christian history.
One reason why the Jewish nation as a whole failed to receive its Messiah was because its leaders and scholars failed to correctly interpret the 70-week prophecy. They failed to see Jesus Christ as the Messiah who died in the midst of the 70th week. The same thing is happening today! Amazingly, sincere Christian scholars are now misinterpreting the very same prophecy.
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There is no problem if one realizes God made a covenant with the world, which messiah fulfilled in 33 AD. And God made separate covenants with the nation of isreal. which has NOTHING to do with salvation. But them as a people and their land. It is not universalism. Even when Israel was in her land. not all were saved. And in this future kiongdom. Even though all Israel is saved at the beginning. I do not believe they will all stay to be saved. Although I could be wrong here
Still love ya sis!!
Still love ya sis!!
more on the decrees and weeks tomorrow.
love you too.
zoney.
E
LOL, Your making me want to say ET phone home. I had to look twice to see who this was directed to. Its funny thanks!!..lol
If you look at the covenants made to Israel. You will find all but one are "I Will" covenants.
If you think of most covenants or "contracts" as we call them today. Most of them are "if you do this" I will do that" which are conditional in nature. One is dependent on the other. if you do this, i will in turn reward you by doing that. If one party breaks the contract, typically one of two things happens.
1. The contract is voided and no longer valid.
2. A clause is made in which if the party which broke the contract admits guilt, and returns to the origional aspect of the contract. The contract can be re-instated. This of course will depend on the humility and willingness of the other party to return to the contract state. If he is unwilling. this contract has failed.
The other type of covenant is an "I Will" contract. I will do this, and I do not do not ask for anything in return. I will hold my end of the agreement even if you do not deserve it. If the one who made the contract decides later he does not wish to hold his agreement because he does not think the party he made the contract with deserves it. he has broken his word or his "vow" to do what he promised. and is seen to be a liar.
This is important to us as one of the covenants God made (origionally in Gen 1:3) was that God said he would fix the problem Adam's sin caused to mankind, And that we, being sinners also, have caused and brought upon ourselves. Namely spiritual death or separation from god. This is important because no one who ever lived deserved to have God fulfill this covenant he made between him and man, and against the serpent. Even though we were God's enemy. We were sinners. God held up his agreement and still csame to Earth and died for us. If this was a conditional covenant, we would be doomed because God never would have came. because we could never hold up our end of the agreement. The law was given as a tutor to show us this fact. Because we can not even fulfill ten simple commands God gave us. Let alone the many other commands God gave us which show we to be sinners, and in conflict with God, who is righteous, and can have nothing to do with sin, or a sinner.
This brings us to the Abrahamic, Davidic and Mosaic covenants.
The first to are "I Will" coveants in which God promised to do certain things he spelled out unconditionally.
The mosaic covenant is conditional. However, if one actually studies this covenant. It is not just the ten commands. Almost a book and a half (exodus and leviticus) is spent spelling out this covenant. And this is where it gets tricky. And alot of people get messed up.
All the covenants with the exception of the Davidic covenant are covenants with deal partly with mankind. Partly with JUST the nation of Israel (The Davidic covenant is directed to David and his people only. It is a promise God made to David and should not be interpreted any other way.)
the thing to remember is that some of these are "I Will" in context. So god is required to fulfill these agreements or God has defaulted.
Some, Like the one I showed yesterday in Lev. Are conditional. Yet even if one party (Israel) breaks their part of the agreement. As I showed God leaves a clause which allows for repentance, and restoration of the agreement, if the nation (even if scattered all over the earth for disobedience to their part of the agreement) repents, god will restore them, and again honor his part of the covenant he made with them.
This is the part Daniel was praying about. The is the part Gabriel answered. This is the covenenat Paul in Rom 11 said God would still honor. When Israel repented at the end of the time of the gentiles. (the time it will happen)
I think an in depth study of these covenants should be in another thread. since we are WAY off topic here.
If you look at the covenants made to Israel. You will find all but one are "I Will" covenants.
If you think of most covenants or "contracts" as we call them today. Most of them are "if you do this" I will do that" which are conditional in nature. One is dependent on the other. if you do this, i will in turn reward you by doing that. If one party breaks the contract, typically one of two things happens.
1. The contract is voided and no longer valid.
2. A clause is made in which if the party which broke the contract admits guilt, and returns to the origional aspect of the contract. The contract can be re-instated. This of course will depend on the humility and willingness of the other party to return to the contract state. If he is unwilling. this contract has failed.
The other type of covenant is an "I Will" contract. I will do this, and I do not do not ask for anything in return. I will hold my end of the agreement even if you do not deserve it. If the one who made the contract decides later he does not wish to hold his agreement because he does not think the party he made the contract with deserves it. he has broken his word or his "vow" to do what he promised. and is seen to be a liar.
This is important to us as one of the covenants God made (origionally in Gen 1:3) was that God said he would fix the problem Adam's sin caused to mankind, And that we, being sinners also, have caused and brought upon ourselves. Namely spiritual death or separation from god. This is important because no one who ever lived deserved to have God fulfill this covenant he made between him and man, and against the serpent. Even though we were God's enemy. We were sinners. God held up his agreement and still csame to Earth and died for us. If this was a conditional covenant, we would be doomed because God never would have came. because we could never hold up our end of the agreement. The law was given as a tutor to show us this fact. Because we can not even fulfill ten simple commands God gave us. Let alone the many other commands God gave us which show we to be sinners, and in conflict with God, who is righteous, and can have nothing to do with sin, or a sinner.
This brings us to the Abrahamic, Davidic and Mosaic covenants.
The first to are "I Will" coveants in which God promised to do certain things he spelled out unconditionally.
The mosaic covenant is conditional. However, if one actually studies this covenant. It is not just the ten commands. Almost a book and a half (exodus and leviticus) is spent spelling out this covenant. And this is where it gets tricky. And alot of people get messed up.
All the covenants with the exception of the Davidic covenant are covenants with deal partly with mankind. Partly with JUST the nation of Israel (The Davidic covenant is directed to David and his people only. It is a promise God made to David and should not be interpreted any other way.)
the thing to remember is that some of these are "I Will" in context. So god is required to fulfill these agreements or God has defaulted.
Some, Like the one I showed yesterday in Lev. Are conditional. Yet even if one party (Israel) breaks their part of the agreement. As I showed God leaves a clause which allows for repentance, and restoration of the agreement, if the nation (even if scattered all over the earth for disobedience to their part of the agreement) repents, god will restore them, and again honor his part of the covenant he made with them.
This is the part Daniel was praying about. The is the part Gabriel answered. This is the covenenat Paul in Rom 11 said God would still honor. When Israel repented at the end of the time of the gentiles. (the time it will happen)
I think an in depth study of these covenants should be in another thread. since we are WAY off topic here.