Don't choke the BABY! Let new Christians drink their milk before you force feed them

[royalscot]

Daniel 6: Daniel and the Lions' Den

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego

the hospital workers take care of what the cannot see.

the mental heath of these people were put to the ultimate test. ( by unbelievers and false or lies.)
and they wonder why there children or flock. is finding condemnation from the world.

still dose not cut you from gods presence though. that was give accesses because jesus christ.

(when two or three gather in the logus understanding. think boiling water is a blessing. )

there is no condemnation in gods pressence, i can come only as i am.

 

[Ariel82]

Would you like us to pray with you Royal Scot?

 

[oldethennew]

we can only 'come' to Jesus as the Holy Spirit leads, and this will always be
in obedience, which equals 'righteousness...is The Lord our Righteousness?
INDEED!!!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What do you know of the elementary principles?

1. foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2. the doctrine of baptisms
3. laying on of hands
4. resurrection of the dead
5. eternal judgment.

Hi Ariel82,

The above list appears to be from Hebrews 6:1-2

Hebrews 6:

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The rest of your post goes on to list "bottles".

I have no issue with the "bottles" as you describe them and I believe they belong under the description of the principles of the doctrine of Christ by which we go on unto perfections as shown in Heb 6:1. And I agree these are things which need to be brought up with new believers in order to establish a proper foundation.

However, I do not believe the bottles as you have described them have the same meaning as what Heb 6:1-2 refers to as doctrine of baptisms and laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

I believe Heb 6:1-2 is speaking of Old Covenant understanding of these issues and is warning the Hebrew believers to not go back to that manner of approach to God, do not lay that foundation again.

As an example: Your description of Bottle 3 --- "baptism is when the Holy Spirit descends on your life and washed you clean of your sins. It is when God declares you His adopted child." I believe that is an accurate portrayal of New Covenant baptism.

However, I believe Heb 6:2 is speaking of washing/purification prescribed by the Mosaic law and is warning not to lay the foundation of that manner of baptism.

So if we read Heb 6:2 as giving instruction that we are to not lay again the "doctrine of baptisms" as the baptism that occurs when the Holy Spirit descends on our lives and washes us clean of our sins and when we are declared God's adopted children, I do not believe that is proper interpretation of the meaning of the verse.

Just my 2¢ and I appreciate your consideration.

 

[BeyondET]

Daniel 6: Daniel and the Lions' Den

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego

the hospital workers take care of what the cannot see.

the mental heath of these people were put to the ultimate test. ( by unbelievers and false or lies.)
and they wonder why there children or flock. is finding condemnation from the world.

still dose not cut you from gods presence though. that was give accesses because jesus christ.

(when two or three gather in the logus understanding. think boiling water is a blessing. )

there is no condemnation in gods pressence, i can come only as i am.

Good post Royal, I comprehend your analogy...

 

[Ariel82]

Hi Ariel82,

The above list appears to be from Hebrews 6:1-2

Hebrews 6:

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The rest of your post goes on to list "bottles".

I have no issue with the "bottles" as you describe them and I believe they belong under the description of the principles of the doctrine of Christ by which we go on unto perfections as shown in Heb 6:1. And I agree these are things which need to be brought up with new believers in order to establish a proper foundation.

However, I do not believe the bottles as you have described them have the same meaning as what Heb 6:1-2 refers to as doctrine of baptisms and laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

I believe Heb 6:1-2 is speaking of Old Covenant understanding of these issues and is warning the Hebrew believers to not go back to that manner of approach to God, do not lay that foundation again.

As an example: Your description of Bottle 3 --- "baptism is when the Holy Spirit descends on your life and washed you clean of your sins. It is when God declares you His adopted child." I believe that is an accurate portrayal of New Covenant baptism.

However, I believe Heb 6:2 is speaking of washing/purification prescribed by the Mosaic law and is warning not to lay the foundation of that manner of baptism.

So if we read Heb 6:2 as giving instruction that we are to not lay again the "doctrine of baptisms" as the baptism that occurs when the Holy Spirit descends on our lives and washes us clean of our sins and when we are declared God's adopted children, I do not believe that is proper interpretation of the meaning of the verse.

Just my 2¢ and I appreciate your consideration.

Your statement doesn't make sense in light of the statement "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, "

Why would the rest of the list be "doctrine of Christ" but baptism refer to the Mosiac covenant?

 

[Grace777x70]

Your statement doesn't make sense in light of the statement "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, "

Why would the rest of the list be "doctrine of Christ" but baptism refer to the Mosiac covenant?

Christ means Messiah to the Hebrews. It's the "anointed One".

We are reading Hebrews through our evangelical western eyes and thus we think Christ as we know Him. The actual Greek structure here says " of the beginning of the Christ word ( or discourse, or subject )"

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Your statement doesn't make sense in light of the statement "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, "

The principles of the doctrine of Christ refers to what is written prior to chapter 6 vs 1.

In previous chapters, Jesus is revealed as better than angels; better than Moses; our Sabbath Rest; the great High Priest.

Then, we have 6:1 where it is stated now let us leave the beginning of the doctrine of Christ and go on to perfection (maturity … not "perfectness") and not lay again the foundation revealed in the Old Covenant observances. If the Hebrew believers lapsed back into that manner of approach to God, they will not enjoy the better covenant, which was established upon better promises (Heb 8:6).

Why would the rest of the list be "doctrine of Christ" but baptism refer to the Mosiac covenant?

I believe the doctrine of baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment mentioned in Heb 6:2 is referring to the Old Covenant way of understanding these issues. And the instruction is to not lay that foundation again.

There is a New Covenant understanding which needs to be understood. I believe the "bottles" you outlined in your Post #666 are the proper New Covenant comprehension.

But if I take your definitions of these and apply them to Heb 6:2, I will not understand the instruction written in Hebrews.

 

[PeterJens]

However, I believe Heb 6:2 is speaking of washing/purification prescribed by the Mosaic law and is warning not to lay the foundation of that manner of baptism.

The above is a perfectly logical interpretation of this verse.
The problem is Jesus commanded us to make disciples and baptise people.

This obviously means the interpretation of baptisms being over is wrong.
Go through acts, Paul is baptised, converts are baptised, and the tradition
has gone on throughout the life of the church.

If you throw out baptism you are into heresy.

But it would appear some have no problem taking one logical interpretation
of one sentence and 4 words and overthrow a major christian doctrine.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The above is a perfectly logical interpretation of this verse.
The problem is Jesus commanded us to make disciples and baptise people.

This obviously means the interpretation of baptisms being over is wrong.
Go through acts, Paul is baptised, converts are baptised, and the tradition
has gone on throughout the life of the church.

If you throw out baptism you are into heresy.

But it would appear some have no problem taking one logical interpretation
of one sentence and 4 words and overthrow a major christian doctrine.

I am not advocating that we throw out baptism.

Look at the word baptismos (that is the word used in Heb 6:2).

Here is what Thayer's says about that word (bold mine):

of the washings prescribed by the Mosaic law, Hebrews 9:10. βαπτισμῶν διδαχῆς equivalent to διδαχῆς περί βαπτισμῶν, Hebrews 6:2 (where L text, WH text, βαπτισμῶν διδαχῆς), which seems to mean an exposition of the difference between the washings prescribed by the Mosaic law and Christian baptism.

Strong's Greek: 909. βαπτισμός (baptismos) -- (the act of) a dipping or washing

In Heb 9:10, the word baptismos is used of the various washings contained in the law of Moses. That is what I believe Heb 6:2 is warning against. Don't go back to that.

I do not believe Heb 6:2 is speaking of the baptism which continued on through Acts and through our day and time.

Here is the use of the word baptismos in Hebrews 9 (in context):

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle,


The divers washings of Heb 9:10 is the same as the doctrine of baptisms of Heb 6:2. I don't believe Heb 6:2 is speaking of baptism as we understand it. It has more to do with the service of the High Priest in the tabernacle. Maybe if the interpreters had used the words doctrine of washings in Heb 6:2 it would be easier to understand.

 

[Ariel82]

Perhaps you and Grace can discuss it. I am fine with laying the basic foundation for understanding of the new covenant as the "milk" needed for babes in Christ.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Perhaps you and Grace can discuss it. I am fine with laying the basic foundation for understanding of the new covenant as the "milk" needed for babes in Christ.

And laying the basic foundation for understanding of the new covenant as the "milk" needed for babes in Christ is fine.

I am trying to clarify what is meant in Heb 6:2. The doctrine of baptisms mentioned in Heb 6:2 is not the same baptism you have described in your post #666.

 

[Ariel82]

Your cited source disagrees with you.

Strong's Greek: 909. βαπτισμός (baptismos) -- (the act of) a dipping or washing

"profound realities of spiritual and water baptism (Heb 6:2).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Helps Word-studies appears to be using the word baptizó (907) rather than baptismos (909). Read Thayer's further down on the page. I quoted it above in post #710.


Baptismos (909) is used as follows (bolded words = baptismos):


Mark 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.


Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.


Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

got things to do ... be back later ...

 

[1ofthem]

One thing I have learned is to put complete trust in God to feed us. He knows exactly how to feed each one of his babies. He knows each of us are different and he is there to feed us individually so that we don’t choke.

I have two sons. Both were born premature and both had problems eating. The oldest didn’t want to eat so I had to feed him of the night or while he was asleep. I called it sneaking it on him….lol
He was the same way when he was a toddler and that worried me. I would try to force him to eat and took him to the doctor countless times. They told me forcing him to eat would only make it worse. I had to just always have different food items out in front of him such as fruits and veggies that he could just eat when he was ready.

The youngest was born 8 wks early but wanted to eat all the time. This was a problem because his digestive system was not fully ready to handle milk and he would choke to the point to where he almost died a couple of times. To keep him from choking, I had to limit how much he ate. He also had to wear a monitor until he was 6 months old to ensure that I always knew that he was breathing and not choking.

Sorry about the long post, but I guess the point I am trying to make is that I love my children and had to learn how to feed them differently and what worked for them individually. I think that is how God is…he loves us all and all we have to do is put our complete faith in him and let him teach us and feed us because he knows how to keep us from choking.

 

[royalscot]

Would you like us to pray with you Royal Scot?

go back to an earlier post, when you were told, you are not the only one that can pray.

going with your post here, i would be correct that you did not understand ,what you read by my post to you.

 

[NayborBear]

I don't feel it's choking the baby, as much as I feel it's more of a "showing" young believers....There's more!....Don't stop!....Don't allow your pastor/preacher/minister/shephard/teacher/saint/father/deacon/elder, or, a myriad of names or titles men like to bestow upon other men, for the sake of some "sheepskin" they might hang on their office wall!.....Think of becoming a believer as entering a new "spiritual career"!...One, in which you are now a detective, and the Bible, is your Book of clues!....Wanna know what displeases our Heavenly Father more then anything? Is when one feels they have learned as much as there IS to learn! Take for example, the "rapture" doctrine!....Teachers, and believers of this false doctrine, don't feel the need to grow, or mature more in the Spirit...Cuz they are going to "fly away", thus not have to deal with those bad, evil heathenistic unbelievers, whom God is going to make endure the tribulation!

 

[royalscot]

ask, seek , and knock. was not my concept , of how the young in faith should carry on.
even when they know a little about you, you need to believe in a god through jesus, to have the his full protection.
so dragging the past with them, there concept will be clearly seen.( by more that one person, who know what this protection is)etc
however there concept , was already told to them via the prophet , of the old and new. (testaments)
if you do not have the full protection of god, then that yoke will fall on there own heads. etc ...........