Don't Mix law & Grace

Willie-T · Jul 12, 2015

It's quite involved, and would best be researched online. But the main thing is that most of us think Moses brought some rocks down the mountain, and that was that.

Not so. Exodus tells us of him then sitting down right then and there at the bottom of Mt Sinai and writing a heap more laws he called The Book of Covenant/s, from memory, of the things he was told. In the eight trips he made up the mountain in that year, or so, they were encamped there (exact memory escapes this old man... those school years were long ago), as I recall, he added even more.

All of these were The Law of Moses. And the people wanted and agreed to them all... thus they lost the GRACE they had enjoyed for so long by desiring this kind of covenant.

I wish I could give you more detail, but it has been around 50 years since I thought I would grab the knowledge of the ages, and whip all those "sinners" into shape. (I never became a preacher)

ladylynn · Jul 12, 2015

Willie-T said:

ladylynn said:

I figured there had to be more to the Mosaic covenant than just the 10 commandments. Especially when I remember how just touching the Ark of the Covenant the wrong way brought death.

Also, I remember how because of the self righteousness of the people when they said they could do all that the law commanded, it was then they lost the grace they had been blessed with before that. Even when they grumbled and complained God didn't strike them dead, He got them different food other than the manna. They were like bratty kids and yet God did not strike them dead until they boasted in the flesh.

I never knew Mosses went up so many times. Amazing how we learn something new every day. Thanks Willie-T

Willie-T · Jul 13, 2015

ladylynn said:

Willie-T said:

Did you know the picture we invented of the 10 Commandments is all wrong? We show it as a single stone with a right and left side inscribed with writing.

The Bible describes two separate stones with writing on the fronts and backs of both stones.

ladylynn · Jul 13, 2015

Willie-T said:

ladylynn said:

I figured as much when I began to rethink Cecil B. DeMills 10 Commandments and the story we grew up with every year at Easter time at our house was not in actuality the Biblical account.

phil36 · Jul 13, 2015

KennethC said:

Yes we must have balance on the subject for it is not an all is saved, or all is lost subject.

For many do get saved but others do fall away and remained lost, and this is clearly shown in the word of God.

Here is a list of verses that says what believers can still do;

*Things Children of God Can Do:

1. Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13 (Tut Tut, you conveniently forgot v10 )

2. Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17 (did you check this against 2 Pet 2:21-22? anyhow, take it from 3:14 here we have a warning against those who twist scripture and try and lure the weak..good motivation wouldn't you say to those truly saved?)

3. Err from the truth - James 5:19-20 (by using this snippet you actually misrepresent scripture.. someone who wanders (to stray into sinful paths) and another brings them back from error.. isnt that the christian duty in community to watch out for each other ... doesn't mean that the person who wandered lost salvation...we all at times wander! praise God for the prayers and spiritual guidance of our christian family)

4. Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11 (best to start at verse 1 and read through especially verse 7.. and by the way who causes the weak (still on milk) christian to be destroyed verse 11( verse 7 and 11 together are strong words. no mention of lost salvation I refer you to James above )

5. Fall into condemnation - James 5:12 (who's condemnation? cf. Matt 5:34 -37. Is it good for Christians to lie..their yes being no and their no being yes? is it a sin that will lose you your salvation? if it id we are all doomed without hope!!!)

6. Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23 (this is classic, you have shown you have not understood Paul here..Saving faith is persevering Faith v11, anchored in hope v5. Heres the important part please take note! Contrary to the opponents saving faith is only found in Christ and not anywhere else... our faith and hope are confirmed in Christ and not in rigorous ascetic disciplines... so the question remains - where those who's faith and hope are rooted in Christ moved away into some sort of unsaved position..nope the text nowhere teaches that.)

7. Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1 (Eh have you actually read this or just copied it from a web page? Are you trying to tell me false prophets are actually saved and have their faith and hope in christ alone??

8. Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12
9. Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27
10. Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14

Hi Just noticed you made a reply... anyhow you can see my answers in red above..

As you can see I got to no.7 and realized that you don't really know what it is you are talking about... it's a dangerous thing to pick scripture and try and make it say what you want!

You have no firm exegesis of the text therefore not stable!

psychomom · Jul 13, 2015

i don't mean to be disputatious, and y'all are certainly free to think as you wish,
but if you look at the Biblical record beginning in Ex 20 and straight through Leviticus,
you may note how many times it says, "And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying..."

Moses didn't make up a bunch of stuff in the giving of the Law of God.

he recorded it just as God gave it to him.

peace... i'm out

ladylynn · Jul 13, 2015

psychomom said:

I don't see that anyone here said Moses made up a bunch of stuff in the giving of the Law of God. (?) Not sure where you might have gotten that idea psychomom. I totally agree that Moses wrote it just as God gave it to him.

psychomom · Jul 13, 2015

Willie-T said:

ladylynn said:

did i mistake that? if so, apologies.

ladylynn · Jul 13, 2015

Grace: The Power Of The Gospel
By Andrew Wommack

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The Gospel is the most basic, foundational message of the New Testament, yet it’s the most misunderstood. Today’s religious system is not preaching the same Gospel that Paul did. They mix it with the Law, and that isn’t the Gospel at all.

The book of Romans was written to explain the Gospel so that anybody could understand it. Paul, the writer, made it so simple that you’d have to have somebody help you to misunderstand it. And, unfortunately, we’ve had a lot of help!

Paul started off with this statement in Romans 1:16:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

That is a radical statement. This word “gospel” in the original Greek is a word that was seldom used at the time this was written. Nobody talked this way, because the word literally means nearly-too-good-to-be-true news. It referred to news that was so awesome, nothing really justified using it. Nothing was nearly too good to be true.

But Paul said he was not ashamed of the Gospel. Why? “For it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” The Gospel is the power of God, and that’s talking about grace. Acts 20:24 and Galatians 1:6 both use the terms “gospel” and “grace” interchangeably. It’s saying that when you understand the Gospel, or the grace of God, it’ll release the power of God into your life. That’s huge!

The next verse in Romans 1 says,

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Notice that righteousness is not revealed from Law to Law, from good deed to good deed—it’s revealed from faith to faith. Here’s a good piece of information to consider: Sin won’t stop the power of God for salvation in your life but trusting in your own good works will. That’s what “the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith” means. You receive the righteousness of God by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8)! God won’t withdraw His power because of sin in your life. That’s why it’s nearly-too-good-to-be-true news.

When you talk like this, people with a religious mindset immediately say, “Well, what about sin? This sounds like you’re just giving people a license to sin.” Not so! Last I checked, people were sinning without a license! I’m not advocating sin. But, see, this is the immediate reaction when you start talking about righteousness by faith. They think you need to make people aware of their sin and the wrath of God.

But that’s why Paul said in the next verses,

For the wrath of God is [already] revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Romans 1:18-19, brackets mine

Notice it says it’s manifest in them, not to them, for God has shown it unto them. God has put in every single person who has ever breathed an intuitive knowledge that they are a sinner and that they deserve rejection instead of acceptance. You don’t need to tell people this; they already know it.

We aren’t called to convict people of their sin but to convince them that the only way they can obtain righteousness, or right standing, with God is through putting faith in what Jesus did for them, not through something they’ve done. That’s why I spend so much of my time on this, and it’s what many of my teaching materials are devoted to.

Let’s look at Luke 18:9-14 to verify this:

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: [10] Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [11] The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [12] I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. [13] And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. [14] I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

This is a powerful parable. Let me ask you: Are you like the Pharisee or the publican? I’m not talking about your actions but your trust. Do you trust in what you do for the Lord or what He has done for you? If a person is putting faith in all of their religious acts—all of their holiness—then that will actually block them from righteousness and relationship with God. But the person who maybe hasn’t been as good, yet they’ve humbled themselves and cried out to God, this is the one who enters into right standing with God.

That’s what it says in Romans 9:30-32a:

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. [31] But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. [32]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

This says there are two types of righteousness: a faith righteousness and a righteousness that comes by the Law. Righteousness by the Law is a righteousness based on performance. Another way to say it is “self-righteousness.” The truth is, nobody can perform well enough to get Law righteousness, because the Bible says in Isaiah 64:6 that “all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.” And James 2:10 says that if you keep the Law and yet offend in one point, you are guilty of breaking the entire thing. In other words, if you did ninety-nine out of a hundred things right and one thing wrong, according to the Law of righteousness, you would be unrighteous. BUT! If you put your faith in Jesus, you would receive His righteousness—faith righteousness—even though you did ninety-nine out of a hundred things wrong! What a deal!

There are many people today who wouldn’t consider themselves to be seeking after Law righteousness, but they really are. Their only hope of entering into heaven instead of hell is that they go to church, they try to be good, they live up to some standard of morality. That’s what this is talking about when it says the Jews weren’t seeking righteousness by faith but by the Law. They were trying to earn what God had given as a gift.

The rest of Romans 9:32 says,

For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.

It is offensive to people, particularly if they have a lot of holy actions to their names, when you tell them that all their good deeds don’t make them righteous before God.Then when you tell them sinners who only put faith in God are more righteous than they are (Matt. 21:28-32), that really puts them over the top!

They say, “You mean I’m not any better than the person who’s been out living in sin?”

That’s exactly what I’m saying. That’s exactly what Paul and Jesus said.

“Well, what have I been doing all this for?”

Good deeds will help you, to a degree, in your relationships with people, but they won’t give you any clout with God. You could have more holy acts than anyone you know, but who wants to be the best sinner who ever went to hell? All have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23).

We need a Savior! The only thing we have to offer is faith. We just believe the nearly-too-good-to-be-true news that Jesus died for us and paid a debt we couldn’t pay and gave us a righteousness we couldn’t earn. It’s faith righteousness!

“Well, I believe in Jesus, but I believe I also have to live holy to be accepted by God.”

That’s saying Jesus’ payment for sin wasn’t enough—that you have to add to what Jesus has done—and I believe that is the greatest sin of all! Jesus either paid for it all, or He paid for nothing at all! It’s not Jesus plus you; it’s Jesus or you! It’s not you doing the best you can and then Jesus making up the difference with grace and mercy. If you try to mix the two, you have totally polluted what Jesus has done. It’s either faith righteousness or your righteousness, but not a combination of the two (Rom. 11:6).

It takes a supernatural revelation by the Holy Spirit to be able to understand this. But once you do, it’ll transform the way that you view God, the way that you relate to God, and the way that you receive from God. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I encourage you to just humble yourself and ask God for a supernatural revelation of this truth. It’s tremendous.

When you truly get a hold of the grace of God, I guarantee you, it sets you free fromsin, not free to sin. You’ll wind up living holier accidentally than you ever have on purpose. You’ll serve God out of love stricter and stronger than you ever would have out of legalism.

Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free (John 8:32). It’s not truth that sets you free; it’s the truth you know that sets you free. But before you can know it, you’ve got to hear it. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom. 10:17).

ladylynn · Jul 13, 2015

Looking at how they were to sacrifice an animal for a "sin offering" was a picture of what Jesus would do for us in the new covenant. These OT pictures give amazing insight into how much Jesus did for us once for all. Not having to do the same sacrifice over and over again. So many pictures then for us to see the truths even clearer now. Showing us that we no longer do what they had to do in the OT because Jesus was the fulfillment of these promises to come, as we are under the covenant of grace. The OT showed pictures of the real thing to come.

When an Israelite brings an animal as his sin offering, he lays his hand on it before killing it. (Leviticus 4:1–4) By laying his hand on the sin offering, his sins are transferred to the innocent animal. The animal dies for his sins and he goes free.
In contrast, during the burnt offering, when the Israelite lays his hand on the animal (Leviticus 1:3–4), the beauty, worthiness and acceptance of the unblemished animal are transferred to him. God accepts the perfection of the animal sacrifice on his behalf to make atonement for him. Because God accepts the unblemished burnt offering, the offerer now has right standing before God.
Do you know that the two offerings speak of Jesus’ one offering of Himself when He hung on the cross? He is both our sin offering and burnt offering—“For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us [as our sin offering], that we might become the righteousness of God in Him [as our burnt offering]”. The moment you put your faith in Him, just by His one sacrifice, your sins were transferred to Him, and His righteousness was transferred to you. That is the grace of God toward you!
As our sin offering, He offered Himself once and for all. (Romans 6:10) The sin offering was never a daily offering because God does not want His people to be sin-conscious. However, the burnt offering was both a morning and evening sacrifice (2 Chronicles 13:11) because God wants His people to be righteousness-conscious.
Beloved, God wants you to lay claim daily to Jesus as your burnt offering and say, “Father, I thank You that Jesus is my burnt offering. All that Jesus is before You—His righteousness, excellence, beauty and perfection—has been transferred to me. Jesus has Your unclouded favor, so I enjoy Your unclouded favor in my life. Jesus is the righteousness of God, so I am the righteousness of God in Christ. As He is before You, so am I.”
Because Jesus became your burnt offering, what He is to the Father today, you are! That is what it means to be in Christ.

Willie-T · Jul 13, 2015

ladylynn said:

Looking at how they were to sacrifice an animal for a "sin offering" was a picture of what Jesus would do for us in the new covenant. These OT pictures give amazing insight into how much Jesus did for us once for all. Not having to do the same sacrifice over and over again. So many pictures then for us to see the truths even clearer now. Showing us that we no longer do what they had to do in the OT because Jesus was the fulfillment of these promises to come, as we are under the covenant of grace. The OT showed pictures of the real thing to come.

When an Israelite brings an animal as his sin offering, he lays his hand on it before killing it. (Leviticus 4:1–4) By laying his hand on the sin offering, his sins are transferred to the innocent animal. The animal dies for his sins and he goes free.
In contrast, during the burnt offering, when the Israelite lays his hand on the animal (Leviticus 1:3–4), the beauty, worthiness and acceptance of the unblemished animal are transferred to him. God accepts the perfection of the animal sacrifice on his behalf to make atonement for him. Because God accepts the unblemished burnt offering, the offerer now has right standing before God.
Do you know that the two offerings speak of Jesus’ one offering of Himself when He hung on the cross? He is both our sin offering and burnt offering—“For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us [as our sin offering], that we might become the righteousness of God in Him [as our burnt offering]”. The moment you put your faith in Him, just by His one sacrifice, your sins were transferred to Him, and His righteousness was transferred to you. That is the grace of God toward you!
As our sin offering, He offered Himself once and for all. (Romans 6:10) The sin offering was never a daily offering because God does not want His people to be sin-conscious. However, the burnt offering was both a morning and evening sacrifice (2 Chronicles 13:11) because God wants His people to be righteousness-conscious.
Beloved, God wants you to lay claim daily to Jesus as your burnt offering and say, “Father, I thank You that Jesus is my burnt offering. All that Jesus is before You—His righteousness, excellence, beauty and perfection—has been transferred to me. Jesus has Your unclouded favor, so I enjoy Your unclouded favor in my life. Jesus is the righteousness of God, so I am the righteousness of God in Christ. As He is before You, so am I.”
Because Jesus became your burnt offering, what He is to the Father today, you are! That is what it means to be in Christ.

Beautifully presented.

ladylynn · Jul 13, 2015

Willie-T said:

You created a monster! I figured since you had some books on your hard drive and I don't have the computer tools or know-how to do that...BUT... I do know-how to cut and paste from different places I go on line. Much easier than trying to remember from something I read this morning or last week. It has the Bible verses and the explanation. Blessings!

Willie-T · Jul 13, 2015

ladylynn said:

Admittedly, it IS convenient. But in this particular forum, I find it comes in handy to bring the truth of what a person actually wrote to the forefront... as opposed to all the partial truths people post, trying to make a speaker's words sound like lies.

Besides, I teach several classes, and it is cool to be able to put your notes and observations right there on the page with their written words. I used this a lot in my Sexual Behavior Modification classes. (Don't teach in that area anymore.)

ladylynn · Jul 13, 2015

Willie-T said:

Very convenient. And like you said, it's handy to be able to bring out the whole portion of what someone said when he/she has been misquoted. One of the things I'm really surprised at is even if you "do" show the truth of what J.Prince really said, no one cared. It seems like it goes better when people think he is a heretic than to find out he is not.
It's somewhat disappointing. Oh well. Thanks for the thread, I very much appreciated it.
Blessings!!

Willie-T · Jul 13, 2015

ladylynn said:

That will always be the case with certain types of people. Because, if one of these "preachers" is right, then that means they have to accept that they, themselves, have been wrong. And pride like that is the most basic sin that has plagued man since the beginning.

Truthfully, it was a difficult struggle for me to really look at the Bible without the blinders of preconception. I won't go into all the legalistic religious indoctrination I went through for 12 years, but let it suffice to say that many of these posters are almost Liberals, compared to the stiff-necked Legalist I was for a couple of decades.

It is not easy to give up all the learning you were so proud of, and start seeing the truth of what Jesus taught.

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Don't Mix law & Grace

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