DRINKING AND THE SCRIPTURES

Stephen63 · Mar 8, 2014

Unfermented Grape Juice. There are ample Greek literary texts which negate the narrow definition of oinos as denoting only fermented wine. A clear example is provided by Aristotle (384-322 B.C.). In his book Metereologica, he clearly refers to "grape juice" or "must" (gleukos), as one of the kinds of wine : "For some kinds of wine [oinos], for example must [gleukos], solidify when boiled."17 In another passage of the same book, Aristotle refers to a sweet grape beverage (glukus) which "though called wine [oinos], it has not the effect of wine, for it does taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine."18 In this text Aristotle explicitly informs us that unfermented grape juice was called "oinos—wine," though it did not have the taste or the intoxicating effect of ordinary wine.
Athenaeus, the Grammarian (about A.D. 200), explains in his Banquet that "the Mityleneans have a sweet wine [glukon oinon], what they called prodromos, and others call it protropos."19 Later on in the same book, he recommends this sweet, unfermented wine (protropos) for the dyspeptic: "Let him take sweet wine, either mixed with water or warmed, especially that kind called protropos, the sweet Lesbian glukus, as being good for the stomach; for sweet wine [oinos] does not make the head heavy."20 Here the unfermented sweet grape juice is called "lesbian—effoeminatum" because the potency or fermentable power of the wine had been removed.
The methods by which this was done will be discussed in Chapter 4, when we discuss the preservation of grape juice in the ancient world. At this juncture it is significant to note that unfermented wine was recommended for stomach problems. To this fact we shall refer again in Chapter 7, when considering the meaning of Paul’s recommendation to Timothy to "use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments" (1 Tim 5:23).
In another passage Athenaeus explains: "At the time of festivals, he [Drimacus the General] went about, and took wine from the field [ek ton agron oinon] and such animals for victims as were in good condition."21 As Lees and Burns observes, "No one, we suppose, can carry prejudice so far as to impose upon himself the belief that fermented and bottled wine was thus "taken from the fields.’"22
Oinos as Pressed Grape Juice. In several texts the freshly squeezed juice of the grape is denominated oinos"wine." For example, Papias, a Christian bishop of Hierapolis who lived at the close of the apostolic age, describes the current extravagant view of the millennium as a time when "vines will grow each with . . . ten thousand clusters on each twig, and ten thousand grapes in each cluster, and each grape, when crushed, will yield twenty-five jars of wine [oinos]."23
Proclus, the Platonic philosopher, who lived in the fifth century, in his annotation to Hesiod’s Works and Days, has a note on line 611 where he explains how the grapes were first exposed to the sun for ten days, then to the shade for ten days and finally "they treaded them and squeezed out the wine [oinon]."24 Here also the freshly squeezed juice of the grape is explicitly called "oinos—wine."
Several Greek papyri, discussed by Robert Teachout in his dissertation, indicate that oinos could refer to unfermented grape juice.25 A rather clear example is a papyrus from A.D. 137 which contains this statement: "They paid to the one who had earned his wages pure, fresh wine [oinon] from the vat."26
Nicander of Colophon speculates that oinos derives from the name of a man, Oineus, who first squeezed grapes into a cup: "And Oineus first squeezed it out into hollow cups and called it oinos."27 This view is supported by Melanippides of Melos who says: "Wine, my master, named after Oineus."28 These two statements suggest that some traced the origin of oinos to the very act of squeezing the juice out of grapes, first done by a man whose name, Oineus, presumably became the name of the grape juice itself.
The Septuagint Renderings. The Septuagint, an intertestamental Greek translation of the Old Testament, offers significant examples of the dual meanings of oinos. Ernest Gordon points out that "In the Septuagint, the Hebrew word for grape-juice, tirosh, is translated at least 33 times by the Greek word oinos, wine, and the adjective ‘new’ is not present. Oinos without qualification, then, can easily mean unfermented wine in the New Testament."29 It is interesting that the translators of the Septuagint usedoinos to translate the Hebrew word for grape juice (tirosh), instead of a less ambiguous word like gleukos, which means "must."
It is also noteworthy that although the Septuagint usually translates the Hebrew yayin as oinos, in Job 32:19 yayinis rendered as gleukos, which is the common Greek word for newly pressed grape juice: "Behold, my heart is like wine [gleukos—grape juice] that has no vent; like new wineskins, it is ready to burst." In this instance the translators of the Septuagint show that for them the Hebrew yayin could refer to must in the process of fermentation.
The above sampling of texts, from both secular and religious authors, makes it abundantly clear that the Greek word oinos, like the Latin vinum and the English wine, was used as a generic term to refer either to fermented or unfermented grape juice. It remains for us now to verify if the same dual meanings are also present in the secular usage of the Hebrew yayin.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 8, 2014

Stephen63 said:

Unfermented Grape Juice. There are ample Greek literary texts which negate the narrow definition of oinos as denoting only fermented wine. A clear example is provided by Aristotle (384-322 B.C.). In his book Metereologica, he clearly refers to "grape juice" or "must" (gleukos), as one of the kinds of wine : "For some kinds of wine [oinos], for example must [gleukos], solidify when boiled."17 In another passage of the same book, Aristotle refers to a sweet grape beverage (glukus) which "though called wine [oinos], it has not the effect of wine, for it does taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine."18 In this text Aristotle explicitly informs us that unfermented grape juice was called "oinos—wine," though it did not have the taste or the intoxicating effect of ordinary wine.
Athenaeus, the Grammarian (about A.D. 200), explains in his Banquet that "the Mityleneans have a sweet wine [glukon oinon], what they called prodromos, and others call it protropos."19 Later on in the same book, he recommends this sweet, unfermented wine (protropos) for the dyspeptic: "Let him take sweet wine, either mixed with water or warmed, especially that kind called protropos, the sweet Lesbian glukus, as being good for the stomach; for sweet wine [oinos] does not make the head heavy."20 Here the unfermented sweet grape juice is called "lesbian—effoeminatum" because the potency or fermentable power of the wine had been removed.
The methods by which this was done will be discussed in Chapter 4, when we discuss the preservation of grape juice in the ancient world. At this juncture it is significant to note that unfermented wine was recommended for stomach problems. To this fact we shall refer again in Chapter 7, when considering the meaning of Paul’s recommendation to Timothy to "use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments" (1 Tim 5:23).
In another passage Athenaeus explains: "At the time of festivals, he [Drimacus the General] went about, and took wine from the field [ek ton agron oinon] and such animals for victims as were in good condition."21 As Lees and Burns observes, "No one, we suppose, can carry prejudice so far as to impose upon himself the belief that fermented and bottled wine was thus "taken from the fields.’"22
Oinos as Pressed Grape Juice. In several texts the freshly squeezed juice of the grape is denominated oinos"wine." For example, Papias, a Christian bishop of Hierapolis who lived at the close of the apostolic age, describes the current extravagant view of the millennium as a time when "vines will grow each with . . . ten thousand clusters on each twig, and ten thousand grapes in each cluster, and each grape, when crushed, will yield twenty-five jars of wine [oinos]."23
Proclus, the Platonic philosopher, who lived in the fifth century, in his annotation to Hesiod’s Works and Days, has a note on line 611 where he explains how the grapes were first exposed to the sun for ten days, then to the shade for ten days and finally "they treaded them and squeezed out the wine [oinon]."24 Here also the freshly squeezed juice of the grape is explicitly called "oinos—wine."
Several Greek papyri, discussed by Robert Teachout in his dissertation, indicate that oinos could refer to unfermented grape juice.25 A rather clear example is a papyrus from A.D. 137 which contains this statement: "They paid to the one who had earned his wages pure, fresh wine [oinon] from the vat."26
Nicander of Colophon speculates that oinos derives from the name of a man, Oineus, who first squeezed grapes into a cup: "And Oineus first squeezed it out into hollow cups and called it oinos."27 This view is supported by Melanippides of Melos who says: "Wine, my master, named after Oineus."28 These two statements suggest that some traced the origin of oinos to the very act of squeezing the juice out of grapes, first done by a man whose name, Oineus, presumably became the name of the grape juice itself.
The Septuagint Renderings. The Septuagint, an intertestamental Greek translation of the Old Testament, offers significant examples of the dual meanings of oinos. Ernest Gordon points out that "In the Septuagint, the Hebrew word for grape-juice, tirosh, is translated at least 33 times by the Greek word oinos, wine, and the adjective ‘new’ is not present. Oinos without qualification, then, can easily mean unfermented wine in the New Testament."29 It is interesting that the translators of the Septuagint usedoinos to translate the Hebrew word for grape juice (tirosh), instead of a less ambiguous word like gleukos, which means "must."
It is also noteworthy that although the Septuagint usually translates the Hebrew yayin as oinos, in Job 32:19 yayinis rendered as gleukos, which is the common Greek word for newly pressed grape juice: "Behold, my heart is like wine [gleukos—grape juice] that has no vent; like new wineskins, it is ready to burst." In this instance the translators of the Septuagint show that for them the Hebrew yayin could refer to must in the process of fermentation.
The above sampling of texts, from both secular and religious authors, makes it abundantly clear that the Greek word oinos, like the Latin vinum and the English wine, was used as a generic term to refer either to fermented or unfermented grape juice. It remains for us now to verify if the same dual meanings are also present in the secular usage of the Hebrew yayin.

You can post them all you want. No one is denying it can not be interpreted as regular grape juice. that is not the argument here my friend.

Your not proving anything, In fact this is the ONLY proof you have to offer it MAY be just grape juice.

your problem is ALL THE other proofs which show it WAS NOT just grape juice.

Stephen63 · Mar 8, 2014

4. The Secular Usage of the Hebrew Yayin

Yayin as Freshly Pressed Grape Juice. Before examining the Biblical meaning of the Hebrew yayin and of the Greek oinos, we shall consider the usage of yayin in Jewish literature, since the latter provides extra-Biblical documentation on how this word was used over the centuries in Jewish culture. The Jewish Encyclopediaprovides a concise description of the various usages ofyayin: "Fresh wine before fermenting was called ‘yayin mi-gat’’ (wine of the vat; Sanh 70a). The ordinary wine was of current vintage. The vintage of the previous year was called ‘yayin yashan’’(old wine). The third year’s vintage was ‘yayin meyushshan’’(very old wine)."30
An almost identical description of the use of yayin is found in the more recent Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971): "The newly pressed wine prior to fermentation was known asyayin mi-gat (‘wine from the vat;’ Sanh 70a), yayin yashan(‘old wine’) was wine from the previous year, and that from earlier vintages, yashan noshan (‘old, very old’)."31 The full statement from Sanhedrin 70a, a Talmudic treatise to which both encyclopedias refer, reads as follows: "Newly pressed wine, prior to fermentation, was known as yayin mi-gat (wine from the press)."
Both of these standard Jewish Encyclopedias explicitly attest that the term yayin was used to refer to a variety of wines, including "the newly pressed wine, prior to fermentation." The newly pressed grape juice was apparently known also as "new wine," since Rabbi Hanina B. Kahana answers the question: "How long is it called new wine?" by saying, "As long as it is in the first stage of fermentation . . . and how long is this first stage? Three days."32
Unfermented Wine for Religious Ceremonies. Louis Ginzberg, who for many years was an eminent Professor of Talmud at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America, wrote a scholarly article in 1923 entitled: "A Response to the Question whether Unfermented Wine May be Used in Jewish Ceremonies." In this article Ginzberg examines several passages from the Talmud, relating to the use of unfermented wine in Jewish ceremonies. His conclusions are significant and will be presented in chapter 5.
In this context we shall mention only a couple of statements from the Talmud which Ginzberg examines at considerable length. The first is from the treatise Baba Bathra 97a, where Rabbi Hiyya discusses whether freshly pressed wine could be used for the kiddush, the ceremony to welcome a religious festival such as the Sabbath. Rabbi Hiyya says: "Since the wine [yayin] from the press is acceptable for libations bedi’abad, it is acceptable forKiddush lekatehillah."33 This statement is significant for two reasons. First, because is shows that freshly pressed grape juice was known as "wine" (yayin). Second, because it indicates that unfermented wine was acceptable for religious ceremonies.
The second passage is largely a restatement with changes of the one just quoted and is found in the Halakot Gedalot, the earliest Jewish compendium of the Talmud. The statement reads: "One may press out a cluster of grapes and pronounce the Kiddush over the juice, since the juice of the grape is considered wine [yayin] in connection with the laws of the Nazirite."34
This statement is perplexing because the Nazirite law in Numbers 6:1-4 makes no reference that unfermented grape juice was considered wine. Presumably, some Rabbis reached this conclusion on the basis of their common acceptance of grape juice as wine. Louis Ginzberg expresses this view saying: "Since there is no express mention of grape-juice among the drinks prohibited to the Nazirite, its prohibition by the Rabbis can only be justified on the ground that it is considered wine."35
If this assumption is correct, it would provide an additional indirect indication that unfermented grape juice was commonly considered wine (yayin) in the Jewish society. Such an indirect indication, however, is hardly necessary to establish this conclusion, since the two passages cited earlier provide direct evidence that the juice of the grape was indeed designated wine (yayin).
Conclusion. The investigation into the secular usage of the related words—wine, vinum, oinos and yayin—has clearly shown that these words have been historically used in their respective languages to designate the pressed juice of the grape, whether fermented or unfermented. This means that those who boldly claim that "the two wines view" is devoid of Biblical and historical support, base their claim on their ignorance of the parallel secular usage of the related words for wine in English, Latin, Greek and Hebrew.

Stephen63 · Mar 8, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

Your problem is that you're looking at it from a western world 21st century instead of the Jewish view of Jesus' day.
You yourself let the cat outta the bag when you said the Jewish weddings were a week long & they drank the entire week. Boy, that would've produced some alcoholics & winos!

Stephen63 · Mar 8, 2014

PART II: THE BIBLICAL USAGE OF YAYIN ANDOINOS

The foregoing investigation has shown that in secular Greek and Hebrew, the respective words for wine, oinosand yayin, have been used to refer either to fermented or unfermented wine. At this juncture it is important to ascertain if the same dual meanings are found in the Biblical usage of these two related words. This information is essential because it will explain why Scripture sometimes clearly approves of wine and sometimes strongly disapproves of it, while using the same word to designate both.
The apparent ambiguity of Scripture toward wine is resolved if we can establish that the two related words for wine—oinos and yayin—are used in Scripture in the same way as in secular Greek and Hebrew, namely to refer to the juice of the grape, whether fermented or unfermented. If these dual meaning is present in Scripture, then it will be easier to show that God approves of the unfermented grape juice and that He disapproves of the fermented intoxicating wine, even while using the same word to designate both. The procedure we shall follow is to examine first the usage of yayin in the Old Testament and then of oinos in the New Testament.

1. Yayin as Fermented Wine

Frequent Use. The noun yayin is the most frequently used word for wine in the Old Testament, fully 141 times. As already noticed, there is an apparent inconsistency in the use of this word, since sometimes it receives God’s approval and sometimes His disapproval. The reason for this will become apparent by looking at some examples where yayin obviously means fermented, intoxicating wine and at others where it means unfermented grape juice.
According to Robert Teachout’s tabulation of the 141 references to yayin in the Old Testament, 71 times the word refers to unfermented grape juice and 70 times to fermented wine.36 This tabulation may not necessarily be accurate, since in certain instances the context is unclear. The actual ratio in the two usages of yayin is of relative significance, because for the purpose of our study it is important simply to establish that yayin is sometimes used in the Old Testament to refer to the unfermented juice of the grape.
Examples of Intoxication. No one doubts that yayinfrequently refers in the Old Testament to intoxicating wine. This fact is clearly established both by the many examples of the evil consequences of drinking yayin and by the divine condemnation of its use.
The very first example of the use of yayin in Scripture describes the intoxicating effects of fermented wine: "Noah was the first tiller of the soil. He planted a vineyard; and he drank of the wine [yayin] and became drunk, and lay uncovered in his tent" (Gen 9:20, 21).
Another sordid example in which intoxicating wine played a leading role is that of Lot’s daughters. Fearing to be left without progeny after the destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities, the older daughter said to the younger: "Come, let us make our father drink wine [yayin], and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring through our father.’ So they made their father drink wine [yayin] that night; and the first-born went in, and lay with her father; he did not know when she lay down or when she arose" (Gen 19:32-33). The story continues relating how the following night the younger daughter repeated the same strategy.
The story of Nabal provides another example of the evil effects of intoxicating wine. Nabal was a wealthy man who had benefited from David’s protection. Yet he refused to give any food in return to David’s men. When David organized his men to kill the ungrateful Nabal, his wife, Abigail, acted hastily on a tip received and brought provisions to David, apologizing for her husband’s foolish behavior. After David accepted her apologies and provisions, she returned home, only to find her husband drunk: "And Abigail came to Nabal; and, lo, he was holding a feast in his house, like the feast of a king. And Nabal’s heart was merry within him, for he was very drunk; so she told him nothing at all until the morning light. And in the morning, when the wine [yayin] had gone out of Nabal, his wife told him these things, and his heart died within him and he became as a stone" (1 Sam 25:36-37).
Among the many other stories of intoxicating wine, we could refer to Ammon, who was murdered by the servants of his brother Absalom while he was "merry with wine [yayin]" (2 Sam 13:28). Also King Ahasuerus who, when his heart "was merry with wine [yayin]" (Esther 1:10), tried to subject Vashiti, his queen, to the gaze of the inebriated nobility of the royal court.
The examples cited suffice to show that yayin in the Old Testament often refers to fermented, intoxicating wine. Further indications are provided by the explicit divine disapproval of the use of wine.

Stephen63 · Mar 8, 2014

Disapproval of Yayin. The classic condemnation of the use of intoxicating wine and a description of its consequences is found in Proverbs 23:29-35. After warning against some woes caused by wine, such as sorrow, strife, complaining, wounds without cause and redness of eyes, Solomon admonishes to refrain even from looking upon wine: "Do not look at wine [yayin] when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly. At the last it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder" (Prov 23:31-32).
A similar warning against intoxicating wine is found in Proverbs 20:1: "Wine [yayin] is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; and whoever is led astray by it is not wise." Such warnings, however, were largely ignored. By the time of Isaiah, drinking fermented wine had become such a universal problem that even "the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink; they are confused with wine [yayin], they stagger with strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in giving judgment" (Is 28:7).
Other passages which clearly indicate that yayin refers to fermented, intoxicating wine, will be mentioned in the following chapter, where we shall examine more closely some of the reasons that Scripture admonishes not to use fermented wine.

2. Yayin as Unfermented Grape Juice

No Self-explanatory Passage. The use of yayin in the Old Testament to denote unfermented grape juice is not always as evident as its use to describe alcoholic wine, because the former does not come under condemnation like the latter. There is no single passage which clearly defines yayin as unfermented grape juice. If such a passage existed, there would be no controversy over this subject and no need to write this book.
The Bible, however, is not a lexicon which defines its words. The meaning of its words must often be derived from their context and from their comparative usage in other passages and/or related (cognate) languages. In the case of the word yayin, we believe that there are passages where the context clearly indicates that the word designates unfermented grape juice.
Isaiah 16:10. One of the clearest passages is Isaiah 16:10. The context of the passage is God’s judgment upon Moab for its pride. The judgment is manifested, as often is the case throughout the Old Testament, through the removal of the divine blessing from the vineyard and the grape juice: "And joy and gladness are taken away from the fruitful field; and in the vineyard no songs are sung, no shouts are raised; no treader treads out wine [yayin] in the presses; the vintage shout is hushed" (Is 16:10).
The important point which this passage clarifies is that what the treaders tread out in the pressing vat is calledyayin. This is obviously unfermented grape juice, since fermentation is a time-controlled process. Some people wrongly assume that if one just lets grape juice alone, it will automatically ferment into a "good" grade of wine. Such an assumption is wrong. Pressed grape juice (must) allowed to ferment without a controlled environment becomes spoiled grape juice (vinegar) which no one wishes to drink.
Kenneth L. Gentry objects to this interpretation by arguing that "the poetic imagery so common in Hebrew poetry will allow yayin here to be alcoholic."37 His argument is that in poetry sometimes the end results are attributed to the substance which causes the result. Gentry’s objection has two major weaknesses. First, it fails to recognize that the poetic imagery of Isaiah 16:10 deals with the joy of the harvest and the treading of the grapes. The yayin flowing out of the press is seen not in terms of what it could become, fermented wine, but in terms of what it is at harvest time, "wine in the presses."
Second, Gentry ignores the fact that the pressed grape juice, prior to fermentation, was called by the Jews, as shown earlier, "yayin mi-gat—wine from the press." Being unwilling to accept the fact that pressed grape juice could be called yayin, Gentry and a host of moderationists are forced to interpret as alcoholic wine the very yayin flowing from the press. Normal interpretation of Isaiah 16:10 does not require interpreting yayin as a poetic reference to the finished product, fermented wine, since the plain reference to fresh grape juice makes good, understandable sense in the context. A parallel passage is found in Jeremiah 48:33.
Jeremiah 40:10, 12. Another clear example of the use ofyayin to designate the unfermented juice of the grape is found in Jeremiah 40:10, 12. In verse 10, Gedaliah, the Babylonian governor, tells the Jews who had not been taken captive: "Gather wine [yayin] and summer fruits and oil, and store them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that you have taken." This order encouraged those Jews who had fled to neighboring countries to return to the land of Judah "and they gathered wine [yayin] and summer fruits in great abundance" (Jer 40:12). In both of these verses we find the term yayin used in a matter-of-fact construction to refer to the fruit of the vine. Alcoholic wine is not gathered from the fields. Such usages negate the assumption that yayin can refer only to fermented wine.
Nehemiah 13:15. In Nehemiah 13:15 we find another example where yayin is used to designate freshly pressed grape juice. "In those days I saw in Judah men treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in heaps of grain and loading them on asses; and also wine [yayin], grapes, figs and all kind of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day; and I warned them on the day when they sold food." Here yayin is most probably the pressed grape juice, since it is mentioned together with the treading of wine presses on the Sabbath. The fresh juice was sold on the Sabbath along with fresh grapes and other fruits.
Lamentations 2:12. In Lamentations there is a vivid description of the physical anguish suffered by Judah during the great famine caused by Nebuchadnezzar’s siege of Jerusalem. In famished distress the little children cried out to their mothers: "‘Where is bread and wine[yayin]?’ as they faint like wounded men in the streets of the city, as their life is poured out on their mothers’ bosom" (Lam 2:12).
In this passage the nursing infants are crying out to their mothers for their normal fare of food and drink, namely, bread and yayin. It is hardly imaginable that in time of siege and famine, little children would be asking their mothers for intoxicating wine as their normal drink. "What they wanted as they were dying on their mothers’ breast," notes Robert Teachout, "was grape juice (yayin) which has a tremendous nourishment and which had been part of their normal diet."38
Genesis 49:11. In Genesis 49:11 the blessings of God upon Judah are prophesised through the imagery of an abundant harvest of yayin: "He washes his garments in wine [yayin] and his vesture in the blood of grapes." The idea expressed by this imagery is that the harvest is so copious that the garments of the grape treaders appear washed in the abundance of juice.
In this passage we also have a striking example of Hebrew parallelism where two clauses express the same thought with different words. In this instance, the "garments" of the first clause correspond to the "vesture" of the second clause, and the "wine" (yayin) to the "blood of the grapes." "Blood" is a poetical name for "grape juice," and its usage in parallelism with "wine" suggests that in Bible times grape juice was called yayin, prior to its fermentation.
Song of Solomon. Other examples of the use of yayinreferring to unfermented grape juice are found in the love poem written by Solomon, King of Israel. In several verses the enjoyment of pure love is compared with yayin: "O that you would kiss me with the kisses of your mouth! For your love is better than wine [yayin], . . . We will exult and rejoice in you; we will extol your love more than wine [yayin]; . . . How sweet is your love, my sister, my bride! how much better is your love than wine[yayin]" (Song of Solomon 1:2, 4; 4:10).
In these verses yayin can hardly refer to fermented, intoxicating wine, since the author of this book condemns fermented wine as a "mocker" and a stinging "adder" (Prov 20:1, 23:32). It is evident that Solomon is comparing the sweetness of pure, undefiled love with sweet grape juice. Such a comparison is most appropriate, because, as Teachout observes, "just as grape juice was given explicitly by God for the purpose of rejoicing the heart of man (Psalm 104:15), so too is the love between a man and a woman."39
The foregoing examples clearly indicate that, contrary to prevailing opinion, yayin was used in the Old Testament, as in rabbinical literature, to designate either fermented orunfermented grape juice.

homwardbound · Mar 8, 2014

dcontroversal said:

You know, today all things are permissible, just not all things are beneficial. We each get to decide and for me I have been dry for 29 years now and am thankful to God for this deliverance for me it was not beneficial, where as for you or anyone else it might be, you decide and you and you

Rockman7 · Mar 8, 2014

To say that wine in the New Testament was only grape juice is incorrect

Jesus used the example of fermented wine in Matt 9:17,mark 2:22,lk 5:36 when talkin with the Pharisee. You put grape juice in a old skin or "bottle" as kjv states and when it ferments ..... Boom!

Tis true that the Greek wording for wine covers everything from grapes in cluster to a good burgundy. But in the OT it gets more specific.

As a preacher I cannot tell people " it'll send you to hell", but as a former alcohlic( ima new creature... That guys DEAD) I can say it causes more problems than not. But that's me ..... Not you.

You may not be able to eat steak and fatty, juicy pork, and punkin pie with butter pecan ice cream because of weigh issues( gluttony is no better).

We can all agree tho... We should remain alert and keep the candle burning

Stephen63 · Mar 8, 2014

3. Oinos as Fermented Wine

The meaning of oinos, the Greek term for wine in the New Testament, is equivalent to the Hebrew meaning of yayinin the Old Testament. Earlier we established that oinoswas used in secular Greek literature as a generic term to refer either to fermented or unfermented grape juice. The same dual meanings of oinos can be found in its Biblical usage. The word, however, occurs only 32 times in the New Testament, while the corresponding Hebrew yayinoccurs 141 times.
Intoxicating Oinos. One of the clearest examples of the use of oinos as intoxicating wine, is found in Ephesians 5:18: "And do not get drunk with wine [oinos], for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit." It is evident that here oinos refers to fermented, intoxicating wine. First, because it can make a person "drunk," and second, because its usage is condemned as "debauchery," that is, utter depravity and dissoluteness.
The intoxicating power of oinos is implied in its symbolic use to describe divine judgment upon the wicked: "He also shall drink the wine [oinos] of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger" (Rev 14:10). Here the "wine of God’s wrath" is said to be "unmixed" (akraton), that is, not mixed with water which would reduce its potency. A similar figurative use is found in Revelation 16:19 (NIV) where it says: "God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine [oinos] of the fury of his wrath." Here the fury of God’s wrath is described by the imagery of a cup of wine, intoxicating and maddening those who are compelled to drink it.
The intoxicating wine of God’s wrath represents the retribution in kind upon "the great harlot . . . with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and with the wine of whose fornication the dwellers on earth have become drunk" (Rev 17:1, 2). Here spiritual whoredom is represented as intoxicating wine possessing an incredible power to confuse the understanding and to corrupt the heart.
These few examples of the literal and figurative use ofoinos make it abundantly clear that the term is used in the New Testament to refer to intoxicating, fermented wine.

4. Oinos as Unfermented Grape Juice

Indications of the Biblical usage of oinos as unfermented grape juice come to us in two different ways: (1) through the Greek translation of the Old Testament (known as the Septuagint) used by the apostles, and (2) through the context of such New Testament texts as Matthew 9:17 and Revelation 6:6.
Oinos in the Septuagint. We noted earlier that the Septuagint, an intertestamental Greek translation of the Old Testament used by the apostles, translates at least 33 times the Hebrew word for grape juice, tirosh, by the Greek word oinos (Ps 4:7-8, Is 65:8; Joel 1:10-12; 2:23-24). For example, in Proverbs 3:10 the freshly pressed juice of the grape (tirosh in Hebrew) is translated oinos in the Septuagint. The King James Version reads: "Thy presses shall burst out with new wine" (Prov 3:10). "New wine" translates the Hebrew tirosh, but the Septuagint simply uses the word oinos without the adjective "new." This in itself shows, as Ernest Gordon observes, that "oinos without qualification, then, can easily mean unfermented wine in the New Testament." 40 The fact that the translators of the Septuagint employed the word oinosto translate tirosh, which is the common Hebrew word for fresh grape juice, is proof that oinos was used to refer to both fermented and unfermented grape juice.
This conclusion is further supported by the use of the Greek word oinos in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word yayin when the latter clearly means the freshly pressed juice of the grapes. For example, the Septuagint uses oinos to translate yayin in Isaiah 16:10: "No treader treads out wine [oinos in the Septuagint] in the presses." In view of the fact that the language of the Septuagint greatly influenced New Testament writers, it seems plausible to assume that oinos is used also in the New Testament with the same dual meanings of fermented or unfermented grape juice.
New Wine in Fresh Wineskins. A possible use of oinosin the New Testament as a reference to unfermented wine, is found in Matthew 9:17 where Jesus says: "Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved." From this verse we learn that it was customary in Christ’s time to put new wine into new wineskins in order to preserve both the wine and its wineskins.
The usual explanation for this custom is that new wineskins were used because they could better resist the expansive force of the carbonic acid generated by fermentation. For example, Jimmy L. Albright writes: "Freshly made wine was put into new wineskins; old skins would burst under the pressure (Matt 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37-38)."41 This view can hardly be correct, because new wineskins, no matter how strong, could resist the pressure caused by fermentation. I have learned this fact from personal experience, as I have seen in my parents’ cellar glass bottles shattered to pieces by grape juice which had inadvertently fermented.
The Encyclopedia Biblica rightly observes that "it is impossible that the must could ever have been put into skins to undergo the whole process of fermentation, as is usually stated, the action of the gas given off in the earlier stages of the process being much too violent for any skins to withstand."42
The process of wine making in the ancient Near East is only relatively known. James B. Pritchard, excavator of ancient Gibeon, where 63 storage vats were found, candidly admits that "only a little is known from literary and pictorial sources of preclassical times about the process of making wine in the ancient Near East."43 According to his reconstruction, at Gibeon the juice of pressed grapes was transferred into four different tanks during the course of several days. In the last three tanks the violent fermentation processes occurred. Then the decanted wine was poured into large jars sealed with olive oil at 65 degrees F (18 degrees C).
Unfermented Grape Juice. In the light of this information, Christ’s saying about "new wine" being placed in "fresh wineskins" can best be understood as referring to wine fresh from the press which was strained and possibly boiled, and then placed immediately into new wineskins made air-tight, possibly by a film of oil on the opening of the wineskin. The various methods used by the ancients to preserve grape juice unfermented will be discussed in Chapter 4. At this juncture it suffices to note that Christ’s words suggest that "new wine" was placed into fresh wineskins to insure the absence of any fermentation-causing substance.
"If old bags were used," Lees and Burns explain, "some of the decayed albuminous matter adhering to their sides must, by the action of air, have become changed into a leaven or ferment (Hebrew, seor); or by long wear and heat, cracks or apertures admitting the air might exist undetected; and the wine, thus set a-fermenting, would in due course burst the skin, and be spilled and ‘lost’"44 On the other hand, if unfermented new wine was poured into new wineskins, no cause of fermentation would be present. Thus, the wine would be preserved from fermentation and the wineskins from rupture. If this interpretation is correct, then Christ’s reference to "new wine" (oinos neos) would constitute another example of the use of oinos in the New Testament to describe unfermented grape juice.
Oil and Wine Spared. An example of the generic use of the word oinos is found in Revelation 6:6, where a voice is heard from the center of the throne room, saying: "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; but do not harm oil and wine [oinos]!" The warning against hurting the oil and the wine sets the limits to the destruction which the black horse and its rider are about to carry out. "Since the roots of the olive and vine go deeper," explains Robert H. Mounce, "they would not be affected by a limited drought which would all but destroy the grain."45
In the context of this warning against the destruction of the harvest, the reference to "oil and wine" is significant, because it shows that these two terms could be used to refer to the solid fruits, the olive and the grape yielding oil and wine (oinos) . This usage of the term oinos to refer to the actual fruit—the grapes—is not surprising, because there are numerous examples in secular Greek in which wine is spoken of as produced within the grape and cluster.46 Anacreon, for example, speaks of the oinos"imprisoned in the fruit upon the branches," and he sings of the treaders "letting loose the wine."47
The above examples of the usage of oinos in the New Testament and in the Septuagint show that the term was used in Biblical Greek in a generic way, to refer to either fermented or unfermented grape juice. This usage is consistent with what we have found to be the use of yayinin the Old Testament. Thus the meaning of the two related Biblical terms for wine (yayin and oinos) must be determined by the context in which they are used. This will become more apparent in the next chapter where we shall examine the Biblical teaching on wine.

Stephen63 · Mar 8, 2014

Conclusion

The survey conducted in this chapter on the usage of four related words—wine in English, vinum in Latin, oinos in Greek and yayin in Hebrews—has shown an amazing consistency in the historical usage of these related words.In all four languages, these linguistically related words have been used historically to refer to the juice of the grape, whether fermented or unfermented. This significant finding discredits the charge that the theory of the two wines is devoid of Biblical and historical support. The sampling of Biblical and historical sources examined in this chapter shows instead that it is the theory of one wine which is devoid of Biblical and historical support.
Long before this century, scholars recognized that the Hebrew, Greek and Latin words for wine could refer equally to fermented or unfermented grape juice. In recent times, however, this historical understanding has been obscured by the restrictive use of "wine" which has come to mean only fermented, intoxicating grape juice. This has misled many Christians into believing that yayin and oinosalso refer only to fermented wine which Scripture allegedly approves.
In this chapter we have endeavored to clarify this prevalent misunderstanding, by showing how Scripture uses the same words (yayin and oinos) to designate either fermented or unfermented grape juice. This conclusion will become clearer in the next chapter, where we shall examine some of the reasons that the Bible disapproves of fermented wine but approves of unfermented grape juice.

NOTES ON CHAPTER II

1. Dunlop Moore, "Wine," in Philip Schaff, A Religious Encyclopedia of Biblical, Historical, Doctrinal and Practical Theology (Chicago, 1887)), vol. 3, p. 2537. The same view is emphatically articulated by Kenneth L. Gentry, The Christian and Alcoholic Beverages (Grand Rapids, 1986), pp.29-56. See also Merrill F. Unger,Unger’s Bible Dictionary (Chicago, 1970), p. 1168.
2. E. W. Bullinger, The Companion Bible (London, 1923), appendix 27.
3. Robert P. Teachout, Wine. The Biblical Imperative: Total Abstinence (Published by the author, 1986), p. 22.
4. Cited by Frederic Richard Lees and Dawson Burns,The Temperance Bible-Commentary (London, 1894), p. xxxvii. Several similar definitions are given on pp. xxxvi to xxxviii.
5. Cited by Charles Wesley Ewing, The Bible and Its Wines (Denver, 1985), p. 1.
6. Ibid., p. 2.
7. Ibid.
8. William Whiston, trans., Josephus Complete Works(Grand Rapids, 1974), p. 48. The text is from Josephus,Antiquities of the Jews 2, 5, 2, emphasis supplied.
9. Thesaurus Lingae Latinae (London, 1740), vol. 4, p. 557.
10. Marcus Cato, On Agriculture 147, 1.
11. Cited by Lees and Burns (n. 4), p. xxxvi.
12. Pliny, Natural History 14, 11, 80-85, trans. H. Rackham, Pliny Natural Hstory, The Loeb Classical Library (Cambridge, 1960), pp. 241-243.
13. Cited by Lees and Burns (n. 4), p. xxxvi.
14. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, translated by the Fathers of the English Dominican Province (New York, 1947), part 3, question 74, article 5, p. 2443.
15. Kenneth L. Gentry (n.1), pp. 45-46.
16. Ibid., p. 46.
17. Aristotle, Metereologica 384. a. 4-5.
18. Aristotle, Metereologica 388. b. 9-13. See alsoMetereologica 388. a. 34 which says: "There is more than one kind of liquid called wine [oinos] and different kinds behave differently. For new wine contains more earth than old, and so thickens most under the influence of heat, but solidifies less under the influence of cold." The reference to the thickening of new wine under the influence of heat implies that new wine was preserved unfermented by boiling it down. This practice, as we shall see in Chapter 4, was common among the Romans.
19. Athenaeus, Banquet 1, 54.
20. Ibid., 2, 24.
21. Ibid., 6, 89.
22. Lees and Burns (n. 4), p. 198.
23. Cited by Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5, 33, 3-4, trans. Edgar J. Goodspeed, The Apostolic Fathers (New York, 1950), p. 263.
24. Cited by Lees and Burns (n. 4), p. 433.
25. Robert P. Teachout, "The Use of ‘Wine’ in the Old Testament" (Ph.D. dissertation, Dallas Theological Seminary, 1979), p. 369.
26. P. Oxy. IV. 72919; ibid., p. 10.
27. Nicander, Georgica frag. 86, cited by Robert P. Teachout (n. 25), p. 370.
28. Cited by Athanaeus, Banquet 2. 35.
29. Ernest Gordon, Christ, the Apostles and Wine. An Exegetical Study (Philadelphia, 1947), p. 14.
30. The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1906 ed., s. v. "Wine," vol. 12, p. 533.
31. Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971 ed., s. v. "Wine," vol. 16, p. 538.
32. Sanhedrin 70a, trans. H. Freedman, Sanhedrin(London, 1935), vol. 2, p. 476.
33. Cited by Louis Ginzberg, "A Response to the Question Whether Unfermented Wine May Be Used in Jewish Ceremonies," American Jewish Year Book 1923, p. 408.
34. Ibid., p. 409.
35. Ibid., p. 410.
36. Robert P. Teachout (n. 25), pp. 349-358.
37. Kenneth L. Gentry (n. 1), p. 30.
38. Robert P. Teachout (n. 3), p. 37.
39. Ibid., p. 38.
40. Ernest Gordon (n. 29), p. 14.
41. Jimmy L. Albright, "Wine in the Biblical World: Its Economic, Social and Religious Implications for New Testament Interpretation" (Doctor of Philosophy dissertation, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, 1980), p. 137.
42. Encyclopedia Biblica, s. v. "Wine and Strong Drink."
43. James B. Pritchard, Gibeon: Where the Sun Stood Still (Princeton, 1962), p. 97.
44. Lees and Burns (n. 4), p. 266.
45. Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation (Grand Rapids, 1977), p. 155.
46. For some examples see Lees and Burns (n. 4), p. 433.
47. Anacreon, Ode 49 and Ode 51.

watcher2013 · Mar 8, 2014

Stephen,

can you get drunk with grape juice?

homwardbound · Mar 8, 2014

Kerry said:

Therefore make no promises, carried out because King promised and was turned on by the girl, puberty in the lead, how deep it goes and what drinking does bring out to be in the lead. Seeing it for what it is, flesh controlling us
When today we are to be led by God in the Spirit of God so watch and pray understanding Spirit is willing yet flesh is weak, which strong drink brings it out as confident and then uses hey buddy I was drunk as an excuse for behavior that was not loving our neighbor, rather harming to our neighbor,
Man just excuses and or accuses each other and by this do not know what true love is from God through Son
Praying for us all to get a clue and be as God has called us to be
Thanks

homwardbound · Mar 8, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Romans 14:13-19

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let not then your good be evil spoken of: [SUP]17 [/SUP]for the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Would this go deeper than just food, since that was the subject at the time food was the problem. you think if drinking was the problem you think the same words would be used?

Stephen63 · Mar 8, 2014

watcher2013 said:

John 2:10-11 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. [SUP]11 [/SUP]This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Adam Clarke's Commentary:

[h=4]John 2:10[/h]The good wine until now—That which our Lord now made being perfectly pure, and highly nutritive!

Barnes Commentary:

Verse 10. Every man. It is customary, or it is generally done.

When men have well drunk. This word does not of necessity mean that they were intoxicated, though it is usually employed in that sense. It may mean when they have drunk sufficient, or to satiety; or have drunk so much as to produce hilarity, and to destroy the keenness of their taste, so that they could not readily distinguish the good from that which was worse. But this cannot be adduced in favour of drunkenness, even if it means to be intoxicated; for,

1st. It is not said of those who were present at that feast, but of what generally occurred. For anything that appears, at that feast all were perfectly temperate and sober.

2nd. It is not the saying of Jesus that is here recorded, but of the governor of the feast, who is declaring what usually occurred as a fact.

3rd. There is not any expression of opinion in regard to its propriety, or in approval of it, even by that governor.

4th. It does not appear that our Saviour even heard the observation.

5th. Still less is there any evidence that he approved such a state of things, or that he designed that it should take place here. Farther, the word translated "well drunk" cannot be shown to mean intoxication; but it may mean when they had drunk as much as they judged proper or as they desired, then the other was presented. It is clear that neither our Saviour, nor the sacred writer, nor the speaker here expresses any approbation of intemperance, nor is there the least evidence that anything of the kind occurred here. It is not proof that we approve of intemperance when we mention, as this man did, what occurs usually among men at feasts.

Is worse. Is of an inferior quality.

The good wine. This shows that this had all the qualities of real wine. We should not be deceived by the phrase "good wine." We often use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength and its power to intoxicate; but no such sense is to be attached to the word here. Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace describe wine as good, or mention that as the best wine, which was harmless or innocent-poculo vini innocentis. The most useful wine —utilissimum vinum—was that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wine—saluberrimum vinum—was that which had not been adulterated by "the addition of anything to the must or juice." Pliny expressly says that a "good wine" was one that was destitute of spirit (lib. iv. c. 13). It should not be assumed, therefore, that the "good wine" was stronger than the other: it is rather to be presumed that it was milder. The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape. We use the word wine now to denote the kind of liquid which passes under that name in this country-always containing a considerable portion of alcohol—not only the alcohol produced by fermentation, but alcohol added to keep it or make it stronger. But we have no right to take that sense of the word, and go with it to the interpretation of the Scriptures. We should endeavour to place ourselves in the exact circumstances of those times, ascertain precisely what idea the word would convey to those who used it then, and apply that sense to the word in the interpretation of the Bible; and there is not the slightest evidence that the word so used would have conveyed any idea but that of the pure juice of the grape, nor the slightest circumstance mentioned in this account that would not be fully met by such a supposition. No man should adduce this instance in favour of drinking wine unless he can prove that the wine made in the" water-pots" of Cana was just like the wine which he proposes to drink. The Saviour's example may be always pleaded just as it was; but it is a matter of obvious and simple justice that we should find out exactly what the example was before we plead it. There is, moreover, no evidence that any other part of the water was converted into wine than that which was drawn out of the water-casks for the use of the guests. On this supposition, certainly, all the circumstances of the case are met, and the miracle would be more striking. All that was needed was to furnish a supply when the wine that had been prepared was nearly exhausted. The object was not to furnish a large quantity for future use. The miracle, too, would in this way be more apparent and impressive. On this supposition, the casks would appear to be filled with water only; as it was drawn out, it was pure wine. Who could doubt, then, that there was the exertion of miraculous power? All, therefore, that has been said about the Redeemer's furnishing a large quantity of wine for the newly-married pair, and about his benevolence in doing it, is wholly gratuitous. There is no evidence of it whatever; and it is not necessary to suppose it in order to an explanation of the circumstances of the case.

watcher2013 · Mar 8, 2014

Stephen63 said:

John 2:10-11 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. [SUP]11 [/SUP]This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Adam Clarke's Commentary:

John 2:10

The good wine until now—That which our Lord now made being perfectly pure, and highly nutritive!

Barnes Commentary:

Verse 10. Every man. It is customary, or it is generally done.

When men have well drunk. This word does not of necessity mean that they were intoxicated, though it is usually employed in that sense. It may mean when they have drunk sufficient, or to satiety; or have drunk so much as to produce hilarity, and to destroy the keenness of their taste, so that they could not readily distinguish the good from that which was worse. But this cannot be adduced in favour of drunkenness, even if it means to be intoxicated; for,

1st. It is not said of those who were present at that feast, but of what generally occurred. For anything that appears, at that feast all were perfectly temperate and sober.

2nd. It is not the saying of Jesus that is here recorded, but of the governor of the feast, who is declaring what usually occurred as a fact.

3rd. There is not any expression of opinion in regard to its propriety, or in approval of it, even by that governor.

4th. It does not appear that our Saviour even heard the observation.

5th. Still less is there any evidence that he approved such a state of things, or that he designed that it should take place here. Farther, the word translated "well drunk" cannot be shown to mean intoxication; but it may mean when they had drunk as much as they judged proper or as they desired, then the other was presented. It is clear that neither our Saviour, nor the sacred writer, nor the speaker here expresses any approbation of intemperance, nor is there the least evidence that anything of the kind occurred here. It is not proof that we approve of intemperance when we mention, as this man did, what occurs usually among men at feasts.

Is worse. Is of an inferior quality.

The good wine. This shows that this had all the qualities of real wine. We should not be deceived by the phrase "good wine." We often use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength and its power to intoxicate; but no such sense is to be attached to the word here. Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace describe wine as good, or mention that as the best wine, which was harmless or innocent-poculo vini innocentis. The most useful wine —utilissimum vinum—was that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wine—saluberrimum vinum—was that which had not been adulterated by "the addition of anything to the must or juice." Pliny expressly says that a "good wine" was one that was destitute of spirit (lib. iv. c. 13). It should not be assumed, therefore, that the "good wine" was stronger than the other: it is rather to be presumed that it was milder. The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape. We use the word wine now to denote the kind of liquid which passes under that name in this country-always containing a considerable portion of alcohol—not only the alcohol produced by fermentation, but alcohol added to keep it or make it stronger. But we have no right to take that sense of the word, and go with it to the interpretation of the Scriptures. We should endeavour to place ourselves in the exact circumstances of those times, ascertain precisely what idea the word would convey to those who used it then, and apply that sense to the word in the interpretation of the Bible; and there is not the slightest evidence that the word so used would have conveyed any idea but that of the pure juice of the grape, nor the slightest circumstance mentioned in this account that would not be fully met by such a supposition. No man should adduce this instance in favour of drinking wine unless he can prove that the wine made in the" water-pots" of Cana was just like the wine which he proposes to drink. The Saviour's example may be always pleaded just as it was; but it is a matter of obvious and simple justice that we should find out exactly what the example was before we plead it. There is, moreover, no evidence that any other part of the water was converted into wine than that which was drawn out of the water-casks for the use of the guests. On this supposition, certainly, all the circumstances of the case are met, and the miracle would be more striking. All that was needed was to furnish a supply when the wine that had been prepared was nearly exhausted. The object was not to furnish a large quantity for future use. The miracle, too, would in this way be more apparent and impressive. On this supposition, the casks would appear to be filled with water only; as it was drawn out, it was pure wine. Who could doubt, then, that there was the exertion of miraculous power? All, therefore, that has been said about the Redeemer's furnishing a large quantity of wine for the newly-married pair, and about his benevolence in doing it, is wholly gratuitous. There is no evidence of it whatever; and it is not necessary to suppose it in order to an explanation of the circumstances of the case.

If Adam Clarke was posting I would have ask him...
so Stephen, with the Help of Adam Clarke...

Can grape Juice make you drunk? this is just a yes or no?

Stephen63 · Mar 8, 2014

The Bible Background Commentary:

Verse 10. Every man. It is customary, or it is generally done.

When men have well drunk. This word does not of necessity mean that they were intoxicated, though it is usually employed in that sense. It may mean when they have drunk sufficient, or to satiety; or have drunk so much as to produce hilarity, and to destroy the keenness of their taste, so that they could not readily distinguish the good from that which was worse. But this cannot be adduced in favour of drunkenness, even if it means to be intoxicated; for,

1st. It is not said of those who were present at that feast, but of what generally occurred. For anything that appears, at that feast all were perfectly temperate and sober.

2nd. It is not the saying of Jesus that is here recorded, but of the governor of the feast, who is declaring what usually occurred as a fact.

3rd. There is not any expression of opinion in regard to its propriety, or in approval of it, even by that governor.

4th. It does not appear that our Saviour even heard the observation.

5th. Still less is there any evidence that he approved such a state of things, or that he designed that it should take place here. Farther, the word translated "well drunk" cannot be shown to mean intoxication; but it may mean when they had drunk as much as they judged proper or as they desired, then the other was presented. It is clear that neither our Saviour, nor the sacred writer, nor the speaker here expresses any approbation of intemperance, nor is there the least evidence that anything of the kind occurred here. It is not proof that we approve of intemperance when we mention, as this man did, what occurs usually among men at feasts.

Is worse. Is of an inferior quality.

The good wine. This shows that this had all the qualities of real wine. We should not be deceived by the phrase "good wine." We often use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength and its power to intoxicate; but no such sense is to be attached to the word here. Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace describe wine as good, or mention that as the best wine, which was harmless or innocent-poculo vini innocentis. The most useful wine —utilissimum vinum—was that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wine—saluberrimum vinum—was that which had not been adulterated by "the addition of anything to the must or juice." Pliny expressly says that a "good wine" was one that was destitute of spirit (lib. iv. c. 13). It should not be assumed, therefore, that the "good wine" was stronger than the other: it is rather to be presumed that it was milder. The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape. We use the word wine now to denote the kind of liquid which passes under that name in this country-always containing a considerable portion of alcohol—not only the alcohol produced by fermentation, but alcohol added to keep it or make it stronger. But we have no right to take that sense of the word, and go with it to the interpretation of the Scriptures. We should endeavour to place ourselves in the exact circumstances of those times, ascertain precisely what idea the word would convey to those who used it then, and apply that sense to the word in the interpretation of the Bible; and there is not the slightest evidence that the word so used would have conveyed any idea but that of the pure juice of the grape, nor the slightest circumstance mentioned in this account that would not be fully met by such a supposition. No man should adduce this instance in favour of drinking wine unless he can prove that the wine made in the" water-pots" of Cana was just like the wine which he proposes to drink. The Saviour's example may be always pleaded just as it was; but it is a matter of obvious and simple justice that we should find out exactly what the example was before we plead it. There is, moreover, no evidence that any other part of the water was converted into wine than that which was drawn out of the water-casks for the use of the guests. On this supposition, certainly, all the circumstances of the case are met, and the miracle would be more striking. All that was needed was to furnish a supply when the wine that had been prepared was nearly exhausted. The object was not to furnish a large quantity for future use. The miracle, too, would in this way be more apparent and impressive. On this supposition, the casks would appear to be filled with water only; as it was drawn out, it was pure wine. Who could doubt, then, that there was the exertion of miraculous power? All, therefore, that has been said about the Redeemer's furnishing a large quantity of wine for the newly-married pair, and about his benevolence in doing it, is wholly gratuitous. There is no evidence of it whatever; and it is not necessary to suppose it in order to an explanation of the circumstances of the case.

How many more do you guys want? I could sit here all day & do this............

Stephen63 · Mar 8, 2014

watcher2013 said:

State your scripture first.

watcher2013 · Mar 8, 2014

Stephen63 said:

so to answer, if grape Juice can make you drunk...you need scriptures? LOL

Stephen63 · Mar 8, 2014

watcher2013 said:

Read the title.........so YES, SCRIPTURES FIRST.

watcher2013 · Mar 8, 2014

Stephen63 said:

can you see how defensive you become...
to be more specific...
grape juice you were defending (unfermented) can it make you drunk?

DRINKING AND THE SCRIPTURES

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