End Times Question

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abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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That's a bit of a stretch. I'm not sure you could call power, knowledge.
Power, authority.

Jesus received the power and authority from the Father. He can end this planet anytime He chooses.

If you say that Jesus doesn't know the day etc, then you are saying that Jesus didn't receive all authority, just some power and authority.

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I know you have probably not thought about this before, but reason it out.

I know what is popularly taught. It just is not quite correct.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Power, authority.

Jesus received the power and authority from the Father. He can end this planet anytime He chooses.

If you say that Jesus doesn't know the day etc, then you are saying that Jesus didn't receive all authority, just some power and authority.

------

I know you have probably not thought about this before, but reason it out.

I know what is popularly taught. It just is not quite correct.
No I'm not saying that at all.

And I'm not repeating anything I've been "taught." Just the words of Jesus right there in the text.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
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No I'm not saying that at all.

And I'm not repeating anything I've been "taught." Just the words of Jesus right there in the text.
Ok, Let's try this from a different point.

Does the Revelation, show the resurrection/return of Jesus?

Does it show what happens after the rapture/resurrection (rapt/resur), of when Jesus comes?

Does the Rev show what happens until the beginning of eternity?

---

Jesus told us when He will return for the rapt/resurrection, it is just not shown according to the years of men.

It is shown in the signs that He has given us.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Ok, Let's try this from a different point.

Does the Revelation, show the resurrection/return of Jesus?

Does it show what happens after the rapture/resurrection (rapt/resur), of when Jesus comes?

Does the Rev show what happens until the beginning of eternity?

---

Jesus told us when He will return for the rapt/resurrection, it is just not shown according to the years of men.

It is shown in the signs that He has given us.
Which is what I said in the first place. He told us we would recognise the SEASON.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
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Which is what I said in the first place. He told us we would recognise the SEASON.
Sure, let's reason this out.

Does the Revelation show the rapt/resur, the coming of Jesus for the kingdom?

Where does it show it?
 
E

Ellsworth1943

Guest
Still waiting on post tribbers to produce evidence of a posrtib rapture.

Ok, since no evidence,maybe a verse or two ???
We can start with this verse-------
1Cor. 15:52
When is the LAST TRUMP sounded?
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
Hi Lucy-P,

When Jesus made that statement it was true. But after His resur. Jesus said "all power" was given to Him.

So if He didn't know the time then, He didn't receive "all" power, He only received some power.

Jesus came and gave us the Revelation that shows us how this will all end.

So Jesus dos know the day and hour, and He gave us the Rev which tells us everything to eternity begins, yes?
Hi abcdef,

I agree with you, Jesus knows everything the Father knows since His resurrection. While on earth Jesus had a human mind, not capable of holding the knowledge of God fully. Paul said we see through glass darkly now, but when we are face to face with God we will know as we are known (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Yours, Deade
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
Hi Deade,

Hi abcdef,

I agree with you, Jesus knows everything the Father knows since His resurrection.
While on earth Jesus had a human mind, not capable of holding the knowledge of God fully. Paul said we see through glass darkly now, but when we are face to face with God we will know as we are known (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Yours, Deade
Jesus knew the face of God, Jn 6:46.

Jesus was "in" the Father Jn 14:10-11.

-----

Do you think, that Matt 24, Mk 13, and Lk 21, are about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad?

If so, then these verses would revolve around that event.

My opinion is that Israel could have accepted the gospel kingdom, but didn't.

That is, Israel accepted the gospel kingdom on Pentecost, but then after a time, rejected it.

So did the people of Israel, have free will? That is, could they have continued to accept the kingdom? Or did God MAKE them reject the kingdom?

That is why Jesus did not know, when exactly Jerusalem would be destroyed, because of free will, God did not Make the people reject the gospel kingdom, it was their free will to do so.

-------

Then there is the revealing of God's will. It is shown in Rom 16:25 and 1 Cor 2:7-8 that Jesus' death was secret until after He died.

So there are some things that were not revealed to men until after the death of Jesus.

This may have been one of them.
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
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I'm of the opinion the 7 year covenant with many, including Israel in Daniel 9:27, correlates with the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:18-19.

Isaiah 28:18 [FONT=&quot]And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the overflowing scourge[/FONT][FONT=&quot] shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.[/FONT]
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,265
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Sure, let's reason this out.

Does the Revelation show the rapt/resur, the coming of Jesus for the kingdom?

Where does it show it?
If you have something to say just say it.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
What's to refute? All they are is 4 different views of the denominational churches over the yearsa. They aren't in depth Bible studies. One can and should study end-time prophecy without the excess baggage.
Did you bother to read the links I posted? They were not created by specific denominations. The theologians cross the spectrum of denominations. They are an in depth non denominational discussion citing texts and analysis. Try reading them before ranting about them.

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.



https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm


Eschatology, end times, & millennialism: Competing theories
 
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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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Hi abcdef,

I agree with you, Jesus knows everything the Father knows since His resurrection. While on earth Jesus had a human mind, not capable of holding the knowledge of God fully. Paul said we see through glass darkly now, but when we are face to face with God we will know as we are known (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Yours, Deade
A problem with your theology. Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Denying either is considered heresy.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
If you have something to say just say it.
Hi Lucy,

I thought that I was saying it, ha ha.

Please understand, the way I try to reach understanding, is by asking questions. The questions are supposed to bring some one to the answer with out my saying it directly. This way, the person has to think about it, reason about it, and come to the conclusion on their own. But I enjoy being direct also.

So here we go.

If the Revelation shows the rapt/resur, then we can know the circumstances surrounding the event.

If you were to say, "The 7th trumpet is showing Jesus coming for the kingdom," Then I would ask, "what are the events leading up to the 7th trumpet, and what are the details shown in the description of the 7th trump."

Then I would ask, "Do we have enough details, to see it coming, if so what would they be?"

---

I believe the answers are there, we just have to think about them, reason them out to the conclusion.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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The problem with the 4 prevalent views of revelation is they ignore or attempt to explain away what John stated at the beginning and end of his revelation, taking it out of its 1st century context and projecting his statements thousands of years into his future.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Failure to heed John's time statements has led the church down the garden path into a whole range of apologetics trying to explain away why "the time is hand" means 2000 years and counting.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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The problem with the 4 prevalent views of revelation is they ignore or attempt to explain away what John stated at the beginning and end of his revelation, taking it out of its 1st century context and projecting his statements thousands of years into his future.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Failure to heed John's time statements has led the church down the garden path into a whole range of apologetics trying to explain away why "the time is hand" means 2000 years and counting.
Are you an amil theologically? That is one of the 4 Views. Did you bother to read the links? You also ignore God's view of time. It isn't our view. The specific events depicted haven't occurred yet. Are you adhering to the view that they occurred in heaven?

Eschatology gets confusing.
 
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Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Did you bother to read the links I posted? They were not created by specific denominations. The theologians cross the spectrum of denominations. They are an in depth non denominational discussion citing texts and analysis. Try reading them before ranting about them.

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.



https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm


Eschatology, end times, & millennialism: Competing theories
I'm not ranting. I'm aware of The blue letter Bible site. I use it.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
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Sure, let's reason this out.

Does the Revelation show the rapt/resur, the coming of Jesus for the kingdom?

Where does it show it?
Here it is abcde,

After the letters to the seven churches, which is the "what is now" part of what John was told to write in Rev.1:19 and which we are currently still in, we read the following:

"After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” - Rev.4:1

The above is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church. In support of this, throughout chapters 1 thru 3 we have the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" used 18 times. In those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints." Like wise from chapter 4 onward we only see the word Saints, but the word church is never used again. The reason for this is that the church is gathered in Rev.4:1 and the word "Saints" is in reference to those great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those in the white robes which no man can count from every tribe, nation, people and language who come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.

So, there is a definite distinction being made between the use of the word "church" and the word "saints." For all the naysayers, you would think that the word church would appear just once from Rev.4 thru 18, but it is never used again. The next time we see the church alluded to is in Rev.19:6--8 referred to as the bride. The next time we see the word church is not until Rev.22:16 which is outside the narrative of God's wrath and at the closing of the book.

Furthermore, the "voice that sounds like a trumpet" is synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16 where Paul is giving a detailed account of the gathering of the church.

The "what must take place later" is synonymous with when the voice like a trumpet says "come up here and I will show you
what must take place after this."

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to Rev.1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the churches and representing the entire church period

What will take place later = All of the events that take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period

So there is the scripture proof regarding the gathering of the church in Revelation. Jesus coming for the kingdom is demonstrated in Rev.19:11-21, which is when He returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.
 
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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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685
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Are you an amil theologically? That is one of the 4 Views. Did you bother to read the links? You also ignore God's view of time. It isn't our view. The specific events depicted haven't occurred yet. Are you adhering to the view that they occurred in heaven?

Eschatology gets confusing.
I hold to the full preterist position - all fulfilled by 70 AD - I don't need to read "the links" as I know the other "views" very well and have noted where they are in error when moving to full preterism.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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I'm not ranting. I'm aware of The blue letter Bible site. I use it.
Then why the accusation that the 4 views are from denominations. I understand the distinctives of many denominations and I don't know what denomination teaches a specific eschatologyical view. The ones I have belonged to and had associated with avoid selecting a specific view like the plague. The issue is too murky. Nothing is clear like for example John 1.