Here is my understanding,
@Clayman . . . Chapter 12 might be a tad confusing because it talks about the past
and the future.
Thanks, love it when people present there understandings.
Revelation 12:1-2 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
So we read in verses 1 and 2 about this woman who is clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars. This woman symbolizes Israel and her 12 sons (stars) and their descendants through whom would come the Messiah. This brings to mind Joseph’s dream in Genesis 37:9.
Totally agree. If I can add some more observations.
The word
"appeared" is the Greek word "optomai" and can mean something that is seen, for example, and "
they shall see" the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, and the word "
wonder" is the word "Semeion" which can mean something supernatural and is often translated elsewhere as "
miracle". So to me a great supernatural event here was seen in heaven in other words it was seen by those in heaven(angels)
Some commentators who don't agree with our view that Israel is the woman seen here have put forth an argument like it could not be Israel for Israel could not appear in heaven, yet they miss understand the context and the meaning of the words. For example,
If it was said, a great sight has appeared in Tokyo, a rare event called a blood moon was seen there last week, It's not saying the moon must therefor be in Tokyo, its saying those in Tokyo could see the the red moon.
In this verse, the woman hasn't yet given birth to the Messiah.
Yes, and if I can again add to this, There has happened a great supernatural event and it was seen by those in heaven, A great, or the word I would have used is "momentous" something momentous has just happened. To me one of the great momentous events of our history would be that God became a man. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He lowered himself a little lower than the angels.
Is this described in the timing? Sure it is and as I agree with the timing of it being before Mary gives birth, we are given even more precise timing and no wonder this is one of the greatest events of our history, our savior has come, and it shows the timing of it was at the time Israel/Mary was pregnant, we can see by the words "
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth"
Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Some verses that those who are pro abortion should think upon.
Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Revelation 12:3-4 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
The “great red dragon” is Satan. This event of Satan’s tail drawing the third part of the stars happened before the foundation of the world. The woman here symbolizes Mary who gave birth to our Savior Jesus Christ.
We have just looked at the first wonder which was a great wonder, and now there is a second wonder that appears, "And there appeared another wonder in heaven" First the obvious the word great is not here, this is not a great wonder it has nothing on the wonder of the incarnate Christ, and the word another is here, which shows us this second wonder follows the first wonder,
Yet the word
great is still used, it describes a
great red dragon having seven heads and 10 horns and seven horns upon his heads which shows that Satan has evolved from that serpent of old who appeared in the beginning to the dragon who is the great ruler of the world. In other words Satan is described here is in his last days wonder or form, a mighty dragon a ruler of the empires, I don't see a pre creation entity being described here.
Also the timing is precise, we have already seen that Mary had become with child, and here the dragon after the one third angels are cast to earth, stands before the woman for to devour the child as soon as its born. I see a few commentators relate this to Herod, giving the order to kill all the children under the age of two, as being directed by Satan, I have no reason to disagree with this?
This is why I relate the sin of the angels to a rejection of the man Jesus Christ, I have more to say on it but another time maybe.
Also this ties in with God sending serpents amongst Israel, the serpents bit people who would die unless they look up the bronze serpent that is erected upon a pole(Jesus the cross)
Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
This event is not the same event as the one we read about in verses 3 and 4. Here, Satan and his angels get cast out of heaven down to the earth by Michael. This is talking about the end times when Satan will appear as the Antichrist right here on earth (in Jerusalem) disguised as Jesus and claiming to be God.
Just to clarify, you have Satan casting down one third of the angels pre creation? Then Satan and one third of the angels being cast out by Michael by the two thirds of angels in the future? Are they the same group of angels as from before the foundation of the world who go back with Satan to heaven to war or is it another third of the angels who are currently in heaven and are falsely worshipping God and singing worthy of all honor and praise is our Lord?
Who are the demons in the gospel accounts, I mean where did they come from in your way of seeing things, for example are they those that were cast down to earth before the foundation of the world?
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
—selah
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Thanks, I'm revising my understanding that most people here just play the man and not the ball.
Just so you understand my position, on Thes 2 While I do see the the Antichrist, the man of sin, as the beast that rises up out of the sea(peoples), and that he is just a man, who brings peace and signs a 7yr peace treaty and stuff, I see this is happening during the tribulation which means I also see Satan as there and eventually indwelling the Antichrist.