Epic Bible Study: Elijah the Tishbite

RedTent · Mar 27, 2014

Going back to when Elijah started the fire on Mt Carmel, did you notice that when he added water to the wood that he filled four jugs three times, that he put on 12 jugs of water? The water used was living water, or water from a running stream. Scripture gives lots of instructions about using water to purify, and 12 symbolizes the 12 tribes of Israel. Water purified but it did not cleanse from sin, it was blood for that.

Note that both blood and water flowed by Jesus wounds as he hung on the cross.

GodIsSalvation · Mar 27, 2014

RedTent said:

Heh to be honest in all these years I never even picked up on that! I always just read it kind of plainly thinking he used copious amounts of water to prove the point that there was no trickery involved and also to further solidify the point that the LORD is God by making the test against the preists of Baal even harder to pull off.

Very awesome analysis here RedTent! Heh, this is why I like having you around for Bible Discussion, you always find such great things I never picked up on before.

(Also just wanted to add for anyone on this topic that its okay to comment on any of the portions of the story we've gone over, doesn't have to be just the most recent.)

RedTent · Mar 27, 2014

thecreationtutor said:

I have often wondered just what it was Jezebel had that made Ahab change his mind so about his God. I think you have listed very well what we know about her.

From watching other people who tell us all about God without actual scripture back up, it seems to be that they first use scripture then they tell what it means, giving a new meaning to it. I can just see Jezebel doing this. Like telling Ahab that his God wouldn't be against including temples to Baal, and quoting some scripture to back that up. From there, it would be only another step to making the Baal temples the main ones, then on to the next step. We see it done in our churches all the time. Look at the amount of sin accepted as normal in many of our churches.

When Ahab wanted Naboth's land, I can just imagine him being upset about it, and Jezebel telling him she had a plan to get it so Ahab could just let her take care of it. Once Jezebel set her mind on something, she didn't seem to get it in a straight forward honest way, she manipulated to get it. When her prophets were defeated on Mt Carmel, it didn't faze her a bit, she just got rid of Elijah even though he was too popular to kill. She never once considered that God was the true God.

If you carefully check 1 Kings, you never see that God ordered Elijah to bring on a drought. God gave Elijah power to do that, but God didn't order it. I think God felt it was too severe a punishment. If you carefully read the story of the storm, earthquake and fire, even though God has control He said He was not in those things. It was a quiet, still voice that spoke to Elijah. God was letting Elijah know that it isn't His punishments that have the most power, it is the still voice. Elijah was all for the strong, disciplining hand instead.

Elijah also was very discouraged, all the work he had done to turn people away from the idols seemed to be nothing, just like so many working for the Lord now get discouraged wondering if their work counts. I think God's encouragement to Elijah, telling him of all the people God had separated for God, is encouragement for all who work to bring Christ to our land.

GodIsSalvation · Mar 28, 2014

RedTent said:

Actually just this paragraph alone I feel we can get a fair grasp of Jezebel's character.

Let's start with the Mt. Carmel incident. I would contend that Jezebel did in fact want to kill Elijah. She even sent him a letter saying she was going to do the same to Elijah as what happened to her priests of Baal. She even invoked her gods saying "as the gods live" meaning she just prophesied in the name of Baal. Heh, and look what happened, Elijah took off running and lived and her prophecy did not come true implying her gods false by her own word, though I doubt Jezebel saw it that way.

Then let's look at the most recent episode with Naboth. Not to defend Ahab too much cause clearly he is marked out as one of if not the most evil king of the Israel/Judah era of Kings. However look at when Ahab went and demanded Naboth surrender his vineyard. Naboth refused Ahab. Ahab could have easily just killed Naboth right there, but he didn't. He went home all depressed. Jezebel seeing Ahab's depression even sort of mocks Ahab for not standing up for himself as king of Israel and just taking the vineyard. And she swears she will get Naboth's vineyard for Ahab. How she does that is by writing a letter in Ahab's name to create a plot using priests of Belial to falsely accuse Naboth of blasphemy. Not only that, Jezebel doesn't ask them to falsely accuse Naboth of blaspheming Baal or Belial, her plot was to falsely accuse Naboth of blaspheming The God (and also the king.) But naturally she did not trully believe in God even though she acknowledged God in writing, because if she had for one, she could not also be a worshipper of Baal and for two she wouldn't have slain Naboth.

Really it makes me wonder if Ahab even knew immediately the full implication of Jezebel's plot when he took possession of Naboth's vineyard. Obviously he covetted the vineyard, and obviously he took possession of it when Naboth died, so he is still equally guilty. I just wonder if he knew that Jezebel had procured it by trickery and had falsely accused Naboth initially. I think Ahab did come to realizing more fully what Jezebel had done when Elijah prophesied against him, because look he humbled himself for which Elijah's prophecies were forestalled against him directly, though they still came true in the days of his progeny to the letter until his line was wiped out later in 2 Kings.

And even in other meeting of Elijah and Ahab, Ahab never seems to me to try to kill Elijah or harm him, though they trade some insults back and forth. Even after Elijah proves Baal false and puts Baals magicians to death, Ahab doesn't try to kill Elijah for this. But Ahab does race home to tell Jezebel who is obviously very wroth with Elijah. Ahab's real problem it seems to me is that he is thoroughly twisted by Jezebel.

RedTent · Mar 28, 2014

GodIsSalvation said:

Isn't this story better than a fiction novel? I can just see the beginnings played out in our church today. Ahab started out meaning well, meaning to recognize the real God. Our church means well, it accepts the forgiveness of Christ, the Holy Spirit, it thinks it is following scripture always. It only lets a little piece of scripture at a time slip. That is how Jezebel worked.

Jezebel told Ahab, first, that his God wouldn't be against a few temples to Baal, then it grew from there. Our church says scripture tells us it is fine to ignore written law because we have the Holy Spirit, Love, Forgiveness, Grace so we can cancel the written part, God says so. Then our individual members of the church says it is OK to give in to this little thing----like making an idol of a fancy car instead of hinking of it as transportation, or giving in to lustful sex instead of Godly sex, just one little indiscretion in the church that God will overlook. Not having this one little thing makes many react like Ahab to not having his vineyard. Having "just one little thing" becomes so attractive it beats keeping our eye on what scripture calls the prize. Jezebel kept Ahab's eyes so focused on satisfying his wants that God became unimportant.

GodIsSalvation · Apr 3, 2014

(@RedTent I much agree with your position especially about this story being much more richer than a fantasy novel or movie indeed. So forgive me for not putting as much thought as I typically do in responding, though seeing as I agree with your position I suppose there's not much for me to say lol. Does make me wish I was super rich and could make an Elijah Movie though, but meh, the book is always better than the movie anyways I suppose lol.)

Anyways for this next part, I been struggling whether or not to put in the demise of Ahab or not since the focus is mostly on Elijah. However seeing as the next event featuring Elijah also features Ahaziah I suppose I will add in Ahab's demise as the story wouldn't make too much sense unless we explained Ahab's demise, and also since Ahab is a pretty central character in the Epic that we have been examining. I won't spend much time on this event, merely positing it for the sake of keeping the story smoothe. So I will probably update this thread again later tonight or tomorrow with our next story featuring Elijah.

And without further ado, on with the story: (1 Kings Chapter 22 (last chapter of 1 Kings))

King Jehoshaphat and King Ahab's Alliance

22 And they continued three years without war between Syria and Israel.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And it came to pass in the third year, that Jehoshaphat the king of Judah came down to the king of Israel.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And the king of Israel said unto his servants, Know ye that Ramoth in Gilead is ours, and we be still, and take it not out of the hand of the king of Syria?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And he said unto Jehoshaphat, Wilt thou go with me to battle to Ramothgilead? And Jehoshaphat said to the king of Israel, I am as thou art, my people as thy people, my horses as thy horses.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Enquire, I pray thee, at the word of the Lord to day.

False Prophets Give False Encouragement

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall I go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the Lord besides, that we might enquire of him?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the Lord: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then the king of Israel called an officer, and said, Hasten hither Micaiah the son of Imlah.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah sat each on his throne, having put on their robes, in a void place in the entrance of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made him horns of iron: and he said, Thus saith the Lord, With these shalt thou push the Syrians, until thou have consumed them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the Lord shall deliver it into the king's hand.

Micaiah's Prophecy

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the messenger that was gone to call Micaiah spake unto him, saying, Behold now, the words of the prophets declare good unto the king with one mouth: let thy word, I pray thee, be like the word of one of them, and speak that which is good.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And Micaiah said, As the Lord liveth, what the Lord saith unto me, that will I speak.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So he came to the king. And the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall we forbear? And he answered him, Go, and prosper: for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou tell me nothing but that which is true in the name of the Lord?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the Lord said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the Lord from me to speak unto thee?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And the king of Israel said, Take Micaiah, and carry him back unto Amon the governor of the city, and to Joash the king's son;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And say, Thus saith the king, Put this fellow in the prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and with water of affliction, until I come in peace.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And Micaiah said, If thou return at all in peace, the Lord hath not spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, O people, every one of you.

Battle of Ramothgilead

[SUP]29 [/SUP]So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah went up to Ramothgilead.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, I will disguise myself, and enter into the battle; but put thou on thy robes. And the king of Israel disguised himself, and went into the battle.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But the king of Syria commanded his thirty and two captains that had rule over his chariots, saying, Fight neither with small nor great, save only with the king of Israel.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots saw Jehoshaphat, that they said, Surely it is the king of Israel. And they turned aside to fight against him: and Jehoshaphat cried out.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots perceived that it was not the king of Israel, that they turned back from pursuing him.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And the battle increased that day: and the king was stayed up in his chariot against the Syrians, and died at even: and the blood ran out of the wound into the midst of the chariot.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]And there went a proclamation throughout the host about the going down of the sun, saying, Every man to his city, and every man to his own country.

Ahab's Burial and Aftermath in Judah and Israel

[SUP]37 [/SUP]So the king died, and was brought to Samaria; and they buried the king in Samaria.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]And one washed the chariot in the pool of Samaria; and the dogs licked up his blood; and they washed his armour; according unto the word of the Lord which he spake.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Now the rest of the acts of Ahab, and all that he did, and the ivory house which he made, and all the cities that he built, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]So Ahab slept with his fathers; and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]And Jehoshaphat the son of Asa began to reign over Judah in the fourth year of Ahab king of Israel.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Jehoshaphat was thirty and five years old when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and five years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Azubah the daughter of Shilhi.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And he walked in all the ways of Asa his father; he turned not aside from it, doing that which was right in the eyes of the Lord: nevertheless the high places were not taken away; for the people offered and burnt incense yet in the high places.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]And Jehoshaphat made peace with the king of Israel.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Now the rest of the acts of Jehoshaphat, and his might that he shewed, and how he warred, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]There was then no king in Edom: a deputy was king.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Jehoshaphat made ships of Tharshish to go to Ophir for gold: but they went not; for the ships were broken at Eziongeber.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]Then said Ahaziah the son of Ahab unto Jehoshaphat, Let my servants go with thy servants in the ships. But Jehoshaphat would not.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Ahaziah the son of Ahab began to reign over Israel in Samaria the seventeenth year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, and reigned two years over Israel.
[SUP]52 [/SUP]And he did evil in the sight of the Lord, and walked in the way of his father, and in the way of his mother, and in the way of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin:
[SUP]53 [/SUP]For he served Baal, and worshipped him, and provoked to anger the Lord God of Israel, according to all that his father had done.

guestno2 · Apr 3, 2014

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]What a corruption among holy nation.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 400 false prophets, prophesying just to please the king.[/FONT]

It reminds me, that verity is not in quantity.
It doesn’t matter how many people telling you something guaranteed right (remember nazis). So we... or me should be beware of that here in this site or even in the church.

And Micha (micayah in en, I think), I like him, its not that easy stand up alone against all…
For me the easiest part was always start, but then when everyone (verbally and with attitude and with silence and glance) line up united in opposition.. it happened to me few times with larger number of people and it was really bad experience for me.. as brave as I was in beginning that broken and shaken I was at the end. It is horrible horrible experience when no one will stand beside you..
I believe Paul experienced this too …. At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge… (epistle to timothy)
I admire Micha that he take all of that for God.

I would really like to hear how to distinguish between false and true prophecy. I have some guidance but I would like to hear from others too.
be blessed

GodIsSalvation · Apr 3, 2014

guestno2 said:

Aye it is my opinion that Micaiah is the central character of this portion ot the story indeed too. Really he displays a good example of true and false prophecy. Look how King Jehoshaphat summons all the prophets in Ahab's kingdom and they give forth favorable "prophecies" of victory over Syria. Jehoshaphat remains skeptical and does not seem to feel as if any of these prophets are true prophets by again asking if there is any prophet of the LORD that they can speak with before battle. Ahab mentions Micaiah but says he does not listen to Micaiah because Micaiah only ever prophesies evil or bad prophecies against him.

The true test of a true prophet is whether or not their prophecies come true or not, because all true prophecies aren't the machinations of mortals, they are words from God. We can see the 400 some "prophets" prophesy a victory over Syria. We can see one lone man Micaiah prophesies the loss of the battle and death of Ahab accurately. Thus we can come to conclusion that Micaiah was the true prophet.

The truth is a hard thing, some people will never accept Truth just because it does not favor their views and sometimes the Truth is downright offensive to some people. Seems Zedekiah son of Chenaanah was extremely offended enough to slap Micaiah for speaking the truth for which he got an epic retort. This is sort of a reoccuring theme in the Bible as a whole.

Also I liked your parallel to Paul as well, this is something I had not realized before even, very good example indeed!

Angela53510 · Apr 3, 2014

Sorry I didn't see this excellent thread and the comments later.

I personally think the miracles are wonderful, and certainly make great stories to teach in Sunday School. Elijah had amazing faith, believed God, but I think the story does not hang on the miracles.

Because of my ministry, and the years I spent being depressed because of the pain and disability of RA, the most important part of the story for me, is how Elijah lapsed into deep depression, after the stress and uncertainty of being a prophet of YHWH in a divided Kingdom, with a wicked king and his Baal worshipping wife on the throne.

"But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness and came and sat down under a broom tree. And he asked that he might die, saying, “It is enough; now, O Lord, take away my life, for I am no better than my fathers.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]And he lay down and slept under a broom tree. And behold, an angel touched him and said to him, “Arise and eat.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]And he looked, and behold, there was at his head a cake baked on hot stones and a jar of water. And he ate and drank and lay down again. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And the angel of the Lord came again a second time and touched him and said, “Arise and eat, for the journey is too great for you.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]And he arose and ate and drank, and went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb, the mount of God."

Near the tale end of my depression, waking up to yet another pity party about being in so much pain, I planned on staying in bed all day and waiting to die the rest of my life. I heard a voice saying "Get up and eat!" It was like a command I could not ignore. I hobbled to the kitchen, ate my breakfast, (no ravens helped, I confess), and that was the beginning of the end of that black hole of self pity and depression. It took some other verses, but "Arise and eat!" was really the catalyst to bringing me back to life, and to God. I ended up reading those verses a few days later during my devotions, which really confirmed it was an answer to my unasked prayer! I wanted to be healed of RA, (like the amazing miracle of raising a child from the dead) but God chose to heal my depression instead.

"But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness and came and sat down under a broom tree. And he asked that he might die, saying, “It is enough; now, O Lord, take away my life, for I am no better than my fathers.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]And he lay down and slept under a broom tree. And behold, an angel touched him and said to him, “Arise and eat.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]And he looked, and behold, there was at his head a cake baked on hot stones and a jar of water. And he ate and drank and lay down again. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And the angel of the Lord came again a second time and touched him and said, “Arise and eat, for the journey is too great for you.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]And he arose and ate and drank, and went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb, the mount of God." 1 Kings 19:4-8 ESV

I just wanted to note that the place Elijah went after his depression was Horeb. In Hebrew, that means "raven." 'עַ֛ד הַ֥

There is an interesting dynamic about the ravens. Eaters of carrion, yet God used them to feed Elijah, and also sent him to Mount Raven!

Angela53510 · Apr 3, 2014

Going back to the beginning of the story of Elijah, when he raised the widow of Zarephath's son from the dead, it took place near Sidon.

"Arise, go to Zarephath, which belongs to Sidon, and dwell there. Behold, I have commanded a widow there to feed you.”

This was north of Mt. Carmel, where Elijah fought the prophets of Baal.

[TABLE="class: maintable3, width: 100%"]
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[TR]
[TD]ZAREPHATHzar'-e-fath (tsarephath; Sarepta): The Sidonian town in which Elijah was entertained by a widow after he left the brook Cherith (1 Kings 17:9). Obadiah refers to it as a Canaanite (probably meaning Phoenicia) town (Obadiah 1:20). It appears in the Greek form Sarepta inLuke 4:26 (the King James Version), and is said to be in the land of Sidon. Josephus (Ant., VIII, xiii, 2) says it was not "far from Sidon and Tyre, for it lay between them." Eusebius, Onomasticon (s.v. "Sarefta"), places it on the public road, i.e. the road along the seashore. It can be no other than the modern Sarafend, about 13 miles North of Tyre, on the spur of the mountain which divides the plain of Tyre from that of Sidon.

The site of the ancient town is marked by the ruins on the shore to the South of the modern village, about 8 miles to the South of Sidon, which extend along the shore for a mile or more. They are in two distinct groups, one on a headland to the West of a fountain called Ain el-Qantara, which is not far from the shore. Here was the ancient harbor which still affords shelter for small craft. The other group of ruins is to the South, and consists of columns, sarcophagi and marble slabs, indicating a city of considerable importance. The modern village of Sarafend was built some time after the 12th century, since at the time of the Crusades the town was still on the shore.

It is conjectured that the Syrophoenician woman mentioned in Luke 4:26 was an inhabitant of Zarephath., and it is possible that our Lord visited the place in His journey to the region as narrated in Mark 7:24-31, for it is said that he "came through Sidon unto the sea of Galilee."

Bible Map: Zarephath

Bible Map: Zarephath

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As you can see, it is north of Tyre, so Elijah likely walked south. Interesting that Jesus also visited this place and used it as an example.

"But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you." Matt 11:22

"And from there he arose and went away to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And he entered a house and did not want anyone to know, yet he could not be hidden. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But immediately a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit heard of him and came and fell down at his feet." Mark 7:24-25

If it hasn't already been mentioned, it is interesting to note is that Ahab was the last king of the Kingdom of Israel. The wickedness of Ahab and Jezebel was the last straw for God and the Assyrians carried them away to captivity in 722 BC, bringing in other people which created the hated mixture of the Samaritans, who Jesus used as examples, and went out of his way to reach them with the gospel.

GodIsSalvation · Apr 3, 2014

@Angela good comments and input, especially liked the Map for a bit of a visual guide to the story.
My only nuance is that the Kingdom of Israel did not cease after Ahab (as we shall see in our next story of Elijah) but continued on with Ahab's two sons until Jehu's revolt and dynastic line which continued on until the usurper Shallum and the usurpers and brief liens that followed him until the Kingdom of Israel finally ended under King Hoshea being conquered by Assyria many generations after Ahab's demise. Also not too sure on an exact modern date to these events. Best scholarly guesses I have seen place these events somewhere between 900-700 BC so I'll leave it at that personally since dating anything accurately in the ancient world past when Julius Caesar's calendar was created is pretty much impossible, but we have a rough sketch idea that this all happened in the later dates of the 1000 BC to 1 AD time frame.

Angela53510 · Apr 3, 2014

I have read the timing of the Assyrians is 722 BC written in stone. Not because of anything in the Bible, but because the Assyrians kept incredible records, timed with things like eclipses and other natural events which can be traced back and correlated to the right date.

The house of Omri was a bad one, in any case. And I am looking at some charts of the Kings of Israel, and somehow I got that wrong about Ahab being last. I misread a letter in English! Ooops!

Here is a good chart of Kings and whether they were good or bad in Israel and Judah.

Kings of Israel and Judah

GodIsSalvation · Apr 3, 2014

Angela53510 said:

Very cool table resource, all though I all ready see certain things I would disagree with it at though this is still a helpful resource no doubt. For instance we will find out in the next Elijah story that Elijah was still around during Ahaziah son of Ahab and Joram son of Ahab's reigns as well. Also on dating, yes the Assyrian records are indeed interesting proofs that help give us a rough date (and also awesomely confirm just about every single one of these kings and events to in fact be 100% fact.) However just like today you gotta keep in mind the Assyrians got their own propaganda (sorta like how Russians and Americans got their own propaganda about verifiable events and people living in our time.)

Also to return to dating methods, I have seen guesses like yours for Ahabs reign in the 700s and also guesses from other scholars putting his reign in the 800s. Plus I personally think the dating is not too important, plus it is nearly impossible to give accurate date in any history, not just Bible history once we move past the creation of Caesar's calendar. That's the most honest answer I can give. Either way though, for me its not so much the human ascribed date that matters moreso than the event and people are able to be verified. The Books of Kings and Chronicles are excellent Bible Studies in my opinion because of how well verified all the people, places, events, empires, etc. are verified even from a very scutinous secular perspective.

Here's a secular article in wikipedia on King Ahab for sake of interest. Again a little caution because some information is taken from ye olde Assyrian propaganda. But either way this does in fact prove Ahab was a real person and many of his events are verified beyond any doubt which leaves open room for what isn't written about by non-biblical sources but are found only in the Bible to also be true Ahab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For anyone on here interested in scholarly research on Bible Dating: From the wikipedia article here are three scholars that give forth their opinion on dating of the events (since the events and people are not disputed, merely the date is): William F. Albright dated his reign to 869–850 BC, while E. R. Thiele offered the dates 874–853 BC.[SUP][3][/SUP] Michael D. Coogan dates his reign to 871–852 BC.[SUP][4]
[/SUP](and I would also suggest consideration of Angela's Table that she shared with us too of course if you are keen on dating.)

Again personally for myself whenever we deal with the Ancientmost of Ancients I like to leave a little bit of room for scholarly error so I myself just say between 900-700 BC. Dating aside though, I stand by the claim that its very awesome that in our current day and age we possess the knowledge to confirm beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that yes, the events of 1 and 2 Kings did in fact happen and the people described therein did in fact live. I enjoy very much how the Bible proves itself throughout time.

GodIsSalvation · Apr 4, 2014

Well like I said, didn't want to spend too much time on Ahab's demise, though its a good story for study no doubt. And as always if you want to comment on anything we've been through so far feel free to. I just figure we shall continue on with our study of Elijah.

So without further ado, on with the story... (2 Kings Chapter 1)

King Ahaziah On His Death Bed

1 Then Moab rebelled against Israel after the death of Ahab.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them, Go, enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But the angel of the Lord said to Elijah the Tishbite, Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria, and say unto them, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that ye go to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now therefore thus saith the Lord, Thou shalt not come down from that bed on which thou art gone up, but shalt surely die. And Elijah departed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And when the messengers turned back unto him, he said unto them, Why are ye now turned back?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And they said unto him, There came a man up to meet us, and said unto us, Go, turn again unto the king that sent you, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that thou sendest to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron? therefore thou shalt not come down from that bed on which thou art gone up, but shalt surely die.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And he said unto them, What manner of man was he which came up to meet you, and told you these words?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.

Ahaziah Sends Troops to Bring Him Elijah

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he sat on the top of an hill. And he spake unto him, Thou man of God, the king hath said, Come down.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And he sent again a captain of the third fifty with his fifty. And the third captain of fifty went up, and came and fell on his knees before Elijah, and besought him, and said unto him, O man of God, I pray thee, let my life, and the life of these fifty thy servants, be precious in thy sight.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Behold, there came fire down from heaven, and burnt up the two captains of the former fifties with their fifties: therefore let my life now be precious in thy sight.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the angel of the Lord said unto Elijah, Go down with him: be not afraid of him. And he arose, and went down with him unto the king.

Death of Ahaziah

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Forasmuch as thou hast sent messengers to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron, is it not because there is no God in Israel to enquire of his word? therefore thou shalt not come down off that bed on which thou art gone up, but shalt surely die.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So he died according to the word of the Lord which Elijah had spoken. And Jehoram reigned in his stead in the second year of Jehoram the son of Jehoshaphat king of Judah; because he had no son.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now the rest of the acts of Ahaziah which he did, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel?

GrandHoboMaster · Apr 4, 2014

We are used to think about complicated motives. But reality are always prety simple. Elijah murdered all the oppenents due to kind of betting. In the eve of the action on the Carmel, Baal worshipers had told Elijah, that they chive him after their victory. So, he answered them: Ok, but if I win I also slaughter you all, folks, till the last boy. And he kept his word.
They were absolutely sure in own success. Many of them were been magicians, mature in different witchcraft (to burn fire for them was an easiest task). But not in presence of a true prophet (praying to the true God).
After his another firework, burning of hundreed soldiers, many people in Israel had suspectes Elijah in cheating. They start to think that the Carmel miracle was not a true one sign of Lord, but simply an act of wizardry of Elijah. People start to think that before the competition Elijah learned a sorcery of burning fire. So on the Carmel he just demonstrated his own art of sortilege rather than a miracle of God. Another people disagreed and told that only after the miracle the fire became a friend and protector of Elijah.

Whoever who thinks the revelation is explaining to us only literary allegories is mistaken.
Before final chapter of human history we will see a lot of supernatiral miracles (esspeccially made by fire). Number of the human beings burnt alife will be counted not by hundreds but by hunreds of thousands individuals. Cause there are no exist any another way to turn the jews to Jesus (Elijah is a bloody monstr due to stuborness of jews, and because of their own evil deeds).

GodIsSalvation · Apr 4, 2014

GrandHoboMaster said:

Heh but it would only be sorcery if Elijah claimed to have performed the miracle himself. Notice when Elijah overkills Baal, that the proof for Baal's no-god dead idol status is proven because the LORD's Fire proved Elijah's words true and the vain magicians of Baal pleaded and cut themselves crying out like curs to their dead idol Baal because he cannot respond because he is a dead idol obviously.

The Fire of God event is good illustration too. two commanders of fifties go up to Elijah the Tishbite and demand he come down from the mountain and appear before King Ahaziah son of Ahab (and likely Jezebel though not sure.) Elijah isn't a magician because when the soldiers call him Man of God and demand he present himself at the King's command Elijah simply shows them that if he be a man of God he moves at God's command and they will be burnt up by fire prolly cause they were going to take Elijah by force.

The third commander of fifties always interested me, simple unnamed guy only recorded in history briefly. He saw 100 men get wiped out by fire and recognized right away that Elijah was a Man of God and pleaded for mercy. The Unnamed Third Captain's plea was heard by the LORD and Elijah went down to see Ahaziah. Whom finally got the message loud and clear that he won't rise out of his bed because he went to enquire of Baalzebub whom is all ready dead.

GodIsSalvation · Apr 11, 2014

Well my friends the time has come to end the Epic Bible Study of Elijah. At least in terms of me posting the Epic. Though feel free to make any comments here afterward in regards to anything to do with whatever we covered in this topic.

I am also interested in maybe doing another Epic Bible Study modelled after this one seeing how nicely we are able to go about this one and learn from eachother and the text. Personally I am pondering on doing the next Epic Bible Study on either Elisha, Samuel, or Gideon. But I would appreciate to hear any of your suggestions/votes on who to study next. Way I figure whichever character gets the most mentions within a few days time will be the next Study subject.

Anyways without further ado, let's finish this Epic with one of my favorite episodes of the entire Bible. I always feel so moved reading this part. (2 Kings 2:1-14)

Elijah Taken by the Lord

2 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the Lord hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.

guestno2 · Apr 11, 2014

How is it possible that in Old Testament times, when the Holy Spirit was not even poured out (not "collectively")
and they had a prophetic schools and plenty of prophets and Elisha ... Elisha was so cool ...

and look at us ... ah
we are so not cool, I personally know maybe 2 prophets, and they have prophecy maybe twice a year (how do you say in English when is something happens 3 times, thriece? or four times...)

we should be all prophets, hm, we should have at least the spirit of prophecy, according to John... for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (rev. 19,10)
what is wrong with us?

GodIsSalvation · Apr 12, 2014

guestno2 said:

Interesting comments. Not too sure how to go about answering all this, but this is my current viewpoints (keep in mind I am relatively new to Christianity, and I am by no means a pope or anything, I am very interested in the fellowship aspect of Christianity after I read the Bible for purposes of gaining clearer understanding.)

I personally am a bit skeptical of anyone that calls themself a prophet, though I suppose it is certainly possible according to the Bible that Prophets still live, or maybe more properly, that the gift of prophecy is still in this world. However the warnings of mass false prophets towards the end of the world is a big thing to consider too and thus this is where Christian discernment is quite practical. Basically way I see it instead of trying to be a Prophet or seek out a modern person that calls themself Prophet, maybe it be more prudent to try to understand the prophecies all ready written by people we know for a fact to be Prophets. Remember this is only my perspective. It is a very interesting facet of the Bible to study though, and is one I am still learning on.

Also I am not too sure if we all necessarily have to be Prophets. The Bible gives many examples of people who are quite righteous, but are not prophets. For examples; Moses, King Jehoshaphat, Gideon, Joshua, Esther, etc. Way I see it many people are gifted by God in many ways. Not always does God use Prophets to save his people, though this has happened so I am certainly not trying to underwrite the Prophets. Sometimes some people just have other gifts that are helpful for furthering the body of Christ.

Also just wondering if you are leaning towards Elisha for the next Bible Study. Personally I am leaning towards Elisha too since his epic story is pretty much a continuation of this study, but I am all right with studying whoever everyone that has been following this thread wishes. I figure I'll give you all to friday to vote or nominate which Bible character to study before launching the next Epic Bible Study with whatever majority decides. I did enjoy this topic a lot, and by all means feel free to keep adding input by it. Is a very good way to study the Bible and from you all I personally was able to learn many parts about 1 and 2 Kings and Elijah, and the Bible narrative that I did not even pick up on before.

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