Essential Christian confessions. "The Augsburg Confessions".

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,569
1,459
113
And the Biblical/Patristic/Historical Evidence I cited in favor of that belief? Any comments/thoughts on that?

God Bless.
The first causality of war is truth. The Roman church, with support from the Roman army, ruthlessly opposed all who did not tow the state religious line. The accuracy of historical records from the Roman church archives is dubious at best. There were a machine skilled at crushing their detractors, much like the Roman army.

But one doesn't need the records if one has the Bible. We can easily discern that there is no priest/laity division in scriptures. In fact, since all who believe are "in Christ" we might rightfully conclude we are in the High Priest, Himself, with a priestly calling and with an inheritance from God: an allotment of grace.

To claim only some, in Christ, have a priestly calling is demonic. Only a jealous slave, with no right to the Father's estate, would come up with such a doctrine... with the intent to make impotent those who would rightfully crush his head.
 
P

Polar

Guest
I was going to try and put all this together but I thing DR. cooper does a better job than me.
I know he says a lot but if you give it a listen you will see where I come from.

I'm sorry Dirtman and I really do appreciate the trouble you went to, but I actually used to lean towards Calvinism.....although certainly not with the interesting bent you have presented. I studied a whole lot more and arrived at where I am today. Calvinism
I realize you are not actually a Calvinist as per TULIP

In the interest of humor, I found the following:



I am actually not an Arminian either. Everything does not need a label and it seems the true dyed in the wool Calvinist MUST label those who are not Calvinists, Arminian. They seem to lack a sense of humor.
 
P

Polar

Guest
yeah....just sayin....



and also...you are chosen but free to unchoose yourself. no :giggle:
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,569
1,459
113
Not quite. ccThe church does have offices because that's how they are described in scripture. What you are referring to is the idea that a Priest receives an indelible mark on the soul in ordination that allows him to carry out his priestly duties. And what does a priest do? He offers sacrifices cm. The church does not have any such thing nor does she offer sacrifice in a way that necessitates a sacradotal priesthood. The office of Elder/Overseer and Deacon are roles and ones of servitude to the body of Christ. The idea of a priest continuing the sacrifices doe arise in Rome and in other areas of the Empire and are condemned as innovations by virtually every protestant confession . Which I would mention is what Luther considered the worst blasphemy. That Christ did not accomplish His mission.

'A nj c
We are not Aaronic priests. We are of the order of Melchizedek. Christ Jesus is our high priest. We look to Him to understand our priestly duties. A priest simply administrates the current covenant. We, like our high priest, are charged to demonstrate, to the world, the character of Our Father, the Living God.

”As my Father has sent me, so I am sending you.”

This is elementary.
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
441
83
I'm sorry Dirtman and I really do appreciate the trouble you went to, but I actually used to lean towards Calvinism.....although certainly not with the interesting bent you have presented. I studied a whole lot more and arrived at where I am today. Calvinism
I realize you are not actually a Calvinist as per TULIP

In the interest of humor, I found the following:



I am actually not an Arminian either. Everything does not need a label and it seems the true dyed in the wool Calvinist MUST label those who are not Calvinists, Arminian. They seem to lack a sense of humor.
At least our conversation and disagreement have been civil.
And I do enjoy a good bit of humour.
 

Athanasius377

Active member
Aug 20, 2020
206
86
28
Northern Kentucky
We are not Aaronic priests. We are of the order of Melchizedek. Christ Jesus is our high priest. We look to Him to understand our priestly duties. A priest simply administrates the current covenant. We, like our high priest, are charged to demonstrate, to the world, the character of Our Father, the Living God.

”As my Father has sent me, so I am sending you.”

This is elementary.
Right. We agree. That's why I deleted the post because I think we are arguing semantics.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,281
1,417
113
It's unfortunate that you are not blessed by confessions...which is their purpose. They are intended to consolidate articles of the faith that they might be more easily understood. Like the scripture we are to be good Bereans and contend for truth. But reciting or studying creeds can be quite helpful.
Perhaps in this light you might find them more appealing.
Funny thing is the confessions use language the common man cannot understand unless some authority or commentary tells him what it means . . . as in the article 1 quoted in the OP:

And the term “person” 4 they use as the Fathers have used it, to signify, not a part or quality in another, but that which subsists of itself.

Now tell me where does the Bible say that? And what in the world does it mean? Ah, I think I will stick to the simplicity of reading Scripture . . .
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
441
83
Funny thing is the confessions use language the common man cannot understand unless some authority or commentary tells him what it means . . . as in the article 1 quoted in the OP:

And the term “person” 4 they use as the Fathers have used it, to signify, not a part or quality in another, but that which subsists of itself.

Now tell me where does the Bible say that? And what in the world does it mean? Ah, I think I will stick to the simplicity of reading Scripture . . .
They are defining what is meant by the word "person". As the one who is self subsisting, not as a term referring to a human.
 
P

Polar

Guest
At least our conversation and disagreement have been civil.
And I do enjoy a good bit of humour.
True. I know we all do not disagree but still we should be able to discuss without becoming abusive as so many seem to do.

Yeah the humor is always good and you do have to laugh sometimes
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
15,071
5,424
113
62
Funny thing is the confessions use language the common man cannot understand unless some authority or commentary tells him what it means . . . as in the article 1 quoted in the OP:

And the term “person” 4 they use as the Fathers have used it, to signify, not a part or quality in another, but that which subsists of itself.

Now tell me where does the Bible say that? And what in the world does it mean? Ah, I think I will stick to the simplicity of reading Scripture . . .
I can appreciate your position. That's why I said it was unfortunate. I never suggested the language wasn't outdated in places or difficult at times to understand. I as many saints over the years have read confessions and been edified and even stirred to greater study.
As far as not following some biblical practice or code, finding a body of work to be only somewhat helpful still makes it helpful. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,618
3,195
113
Article IX
Baptism

Of Baptism we teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God; and that children are to be baptized, who, being offered to God through Baptism, are received into His grace. We condemn the Anabaptists, who do not allow the baptism of children and say that children are saved without Baptism.​

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," Ephesians 2:8

We don't receive His grace through baptism, but through faith. Baptism is essential and important but it's not the medium through which we receive God's grace. Baptism cannot in any way, shape or form impart grace to children.

Whoever wrote this is as deluded as a Roman Catholic.
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
441
83
Article IX
Baptism

Of Baptism we teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God; and that children are to be baptized, who, being offered to God through Baptism, are received into His grace. We condemn the Anabaptists, who do not allow the baptism of children and say that children are saved without Baptism.​

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," Ephesians 2:8

We don't receive His grace through baptism, but through faith. Baptism is essential and important but it's not the medium through which we receive God's grace. Baptism cannot in any way, shape or form impart grace to children.

Whoever wrote this is as deluded as a Roman Catholic.
That passage is great and all but its not about baptism. To know what baptism is and does one must read passages about baptism such as 1 Peter 3 particularly verse 21. 1 Peter 3:20–21 were rescued through water. 21 And also, corresponding to this, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Now saves you is a clear statement that can not be dismissed by any Christians.
 
Nov 26, 2021
1,125
545
113
India
Aaron said:
But one doesn't need the records if one has the Bible. We can easily discern that there is no priest/laity division in scriptures.
Ok, we will use the Scriptures alone to study the question. I cited 5 or so Bible verses in my last post about Priesthood.

Any thoughts?

1. Jude (1:11) says "they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion." What was Korah's rebellion? [I gave the reference to Numbers 16.] Rebelling against the Priestly Hierarchy. That shows there was a Priestly Hierarchy in Apostle Jude's time.

2. God's Prophecy: "And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites,” says the LORD. " (Isa 66:21). Again, God reveals there will be Priests and Levites, i.e. Ministerial Priests, in the New Covenant.

3. Mal 1:11: "My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD Almighty."

This did not happen in Israel. It happens in the Church. It happens through Ministerial Priests who offer the Lord's Body and Blood to God under the forms of bread and wine. Christ commanded His Apostles, and other Presbyters, to do this.

4. The Bible clearly speaks of Bishops and Presbyters in many passages: "Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20:28).

"For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you," (Titus 1:5)

Are you a Bishop or a Presbyter, Aaron? All Christians share a "royal priesthood" but not the "ministerial priesthood".

5. In Rom 15:16, St. Paul says that he, a Presbyter, ministers or officiates as a Priest no less than the Jewish Priests in the Temple used to do; but he does in Christ: "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." (Rom 15:16, NASB).
[Strong's Concordance on the above passage in Greek: "
in the priestly service
ἱερουργοῦντα (hierourgounta)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's 2418: To minister in holy things. From a compound of hieron and the base of ergon; to be a temple-worker, i.e. Officiate as a priest." https://biblehub.com/romans/15-16.htm] Here, we see that Bishops/Presbyters do minister as Priests.

Again, not every Christian is a Presbyter, and not every Presbyter is a Bishop. Bishops/Presbyters "minister as Priests".

Also, if there is no ministerial Priesthood in the New Testament, no one should receive tithes either. Tithes were always for Priests, right from the time when Abraham tithed Melchizedek the Priest. Does anyone really want to maintain that?

Why did the Lord command tithes to be paid to His Priests? Because He delights in receiving their offerings/sacrifices. And if you read Malachi 1:11, it is clear that Priesthood and offerings (clearly of the Lord's Body and Blood) continue in the NT.

God Bless.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,569
1,459
113
All Christians share a "royal priesthood" but not the "ministerial priesthood".
Oh, so it is common to refer to all members of the Roman Catholic church as "priest"? No, of course not. The Romans encapsulated all relational connections of the Body of Christ into an institutional form that mirrored the Roman government. The church left her first calling, to present the Father and His Son in the earth, and chose the corrupt calling of ruling for the benefit of the Roman emperor.

Listen, in full disclosure I am certain you are under a delusion and thus, cannot see the truth. If 8 Billion dollars of reparations paid out for child sexual abuse cannot convince you of the evil of the Roman church, I have no chance. Thus, discussion is pointless with you.
 
Nov 26, 2021
1,125
545
113
India
I'm a fairly Ecumenical Christian, but everyone knows there have been many abuses and scandals also in the Protestant Churches. Since the Catholic Church is larger, you hear of it more often. Most abuses have now stopped. Also, the Catholic Church runs great Charities and Hospitals on virtually every continent on Earth; those who do that are practicing what the Church teaches. The others are not. They entered seminary deviously because many of them were homosexuals/pederasts.

I spent some time in a Seminary, learning theology, because I loved the Lord and wanted to serve Him in His Priesthood. Those who really love God and His Church enter with such intentions, not the bad intentions with which the others entered.

If you've read the Catholic Catechism, you'll know the Catholic Church holds Baptism gives a "royal priesthood" to all believers: "1268 The baptized have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood." By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light." Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers." http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1268.htm

Ministerial Priesthood is conferred only by ordination from a Bishop. The two are clearly distinguished in the NT.

God Bless.
 
P

Polar

Guest
That passage is great and all but its not about baptism. To know what baptism is and does one must read passages about baptism such as 1 Peter 3 particularly verse 21. 1 Peter 3:20–21 were rescued through water. 21 And also, corresponding to this, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Now saves you is a clear statement that can not be dismissed by any Christians.
I'm disappointed. smh
 

Athanasius377

Active member
Aug 20, 2020
206
86
28
Northern Kentucky
Now read in the New Testament where Jude (1:11) says "they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion." That means there is a Priestly Hierarchy in the New Testament too. The Early Church understood this: Deacons are the New Levites, Presbyters the New Priests and the Bishops the High Priests. See: https://www.catholic.com/tract/bishop-priest-and-deacon Christ Himself is called "The Bishop of our Souls" (1 Pet 2:25). Not every believer is a Presbyter or a Bishop but only the Ordained.
Um, not so fast. You have not proven there is a priestly hierarchy functioning in the NT church. Lets put the verse from Jude 1:11 back into context and find out what is going on here:

3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” 10 But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. 11 Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error and perished in Korah’s rebellion. 12 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.



The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Jud 3–13). (2016). Crossway Bibles.

So Jude is comparing those "Certain People" who have crept into the church with those who perished in Korah's rebellion. And why, because those "Certain People" walked in the way of Cain, committed Balaam's error by being prophets for profit. What exactly did they do, verse 12 tells us they were shepherds feeding themselves as opposed to feeding the sheep and so on. Reading the text as a whole they were in short unbelievers. This text has nothing to with a priestly office you claims exists in the NT church.