Eternal Damnation

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Apr 11, 2012
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#81
And the purpose of Jesus having died?
To save the many who are blind to the truth.


Romans 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


We both were made from the SAME holy lump. We are one so if I'm saved, everyone is! Even if the MANY do not believe, He can no more deny His own existence than we can ours here!
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#82
To save the many who are blind to the truth.


Romans 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


We both were made from the SAME holy lump. We are one so if I'm saved, everyone is! Even if the MANY do not believe, He can no more deny His own existence than we can ours here!

And if someone does not have faith, is he still righteous?

I am sorry, but I cannot argue with someone who bluntely and purposefully twist the truth into saying which is most illogical that I really do not believe they even believe it. You are saying that we, as humans, are created holy. Yet, Scripture says that we are holy only because we, those whom God as accepted as His child through faith in Jesus Christ, pertake of God's holiness. Do you rally think they who choose to follow Satan or sin are holy simple because we are from the same lump of clay we call the human seed?

This is beyond any logic, you and 2KnowHim are extreme in your debasing of the Christ. You first say that the prupose of Christ's death is to save the MANY (not the all), then even quoted a verse which stated that faith is counted as righteousness, then go on to say that the lump and not those who God makes holy is holy. I am sure you see the contradiction of such foolish words.
 
Apr 11, 2012
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#83
And if someone does not have faith, is he still righteous?

I am sorry, but I cannot argue with someone who bluntely and purposefully twist the truth into saying which is most illogical that I really do not believe they even believe it. You are saying that we, as humans, are created holy. Yet, Scripture says that we are holy only because we, those whom God as accepted as His child through faith in Jesus Christ, pertake of God's holiness. Do you rally think they who choose to follow Satan or sin are holy simple because we are from the same lump of clay we call the human seed?

This is beyond any logic, you and 2KnowHim are extreme in your debasing of the Christ. You first say that the prupose of Christ's death is to save the MANY (not the all), then even quoted a verse which stated that faith is counted as righteousness, then go on to say that the lump and not those who God makes holy is holy. I am sure you see the contradiction of such foolish words.
The problem with most doctrines is that you twist the scriptures to your own destruction. How can a man NOT have faith?


Romans 12:3

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Now if your faith is great in God, great! Have it to thy self before the Lord. But do not force your meat upon another. For he also has no lack in the faith that was measured to him.
 
Oct 12, 2011
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#84
We lift Him up to the Highest, especially over man's will, and man's choice.

It's such a shame that, even after all the suffering He did, and the price He paid, to then in turn,
give man a choice,..... how you can believe this is beyond me.

And how you can deny, EVERY ENEMY will be brought under subjection to Him.
You really believe that the Rebellion in man is stronger than the Love of God?

Again, I will proclaim with All my heart, soul, and spirit, that Salvation MUST be as UNIVERSAL as the Fall.

As we have ALL borne the image of the earthy, We shall all bear the image of the Heavenly.
 
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Tombo

Guest
#85
It's amazing how two adults with obvious intelligence can actually believe what they are saying. But then it is not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of emotions run amuck. They just cannot see God destroying anyone (it is ungodly for God to do such a thing in their eyes) so they make up this universal salvation foolishness. They will not let God be God. They feel the need to rewrite scripture to fit their God. The only problem is, their God is not the God of the Bible. They ignore Romans nine where God speaks of the vessels of wrath that are PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTUION. I have tried to show 2knowhim many verses to prove her error, but it did not one bit of good. I have the feeling we'd be speaking to the wall with Hisservant also.
It's best to just leave it in God's hands.
God bless.


Tom
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#86
Tom,

I refuse to speak to such blunt ignorance of those who deconstruct Scripture in willingness as they.

God Bless
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#87
It's amazing how two adults with obvious intelligence can actually believe what they are saying. But then it is not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of emotions run amuck. They just cannot see God destroying anyone (it is ungodly for God to do such a thing in their eyes) so they make up this universal salvation foolishness. They will not let God be God. They feel the need to rewrite scripture to fit their God. The only problem is, their God is not the God of the Bible. They ignore Romans nine where God speaks of the vessels of wrath that are PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTUION. I have tried to show 2knowhim many verses to prove her error, but it did not one bit of good. I have the feeling we'd be speaking to the wall with Hisservant also.
It's best to just leave it in God's hands.
God bless.


Tom
You're speaking to the wall bro. These people think that you and everyone else who do not buy into their stuffs are "carnal". No wonder since they even judge God in their darkened hearts (thinking THIS AND THAT can not God do, although He has said so) puffing their selves up with their "visions" and spiritualising away all essential Bible doctrine to their own liking. This malplaced stuff has been going on for far too long. I wonder what the modz think of it...
 
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Tombo

Guest
#88
You're speaking to the wall bro. These people think that you and everyone else who do not buy into their stuffs are "carnal". No wonder since they even judge God in their darkened hearts (thinking THIS AND THAT can not God do, although He has said so) puffing their selves up with their "visions" and spiritualising away all essential Bible doctrine to their own liking. This malplaced stuff has been going on for far too long. I wonder what the modz think of it...

There has been no shortage of heresy on here lately. Some teach salvation by works, while others teach salvation by just being created. Some think they can repent of themselves and God will (indeed, is indebted) to save them, while others think repentance doesn't matter because there is nothing you could possibly do to be lost!!!! They both belittle the work of Jesus Christ, and this is both evil and sad.
God have mercy on both.

Tom
 
Oct 12, 2011
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#89
It's amazing how two adults with obvious intelligence can actually believe what they are saying. But then it is not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of emotions run amuck. They just cannot see God destroying anyone (it is ungodly for God to do such a thing in their eyes) so they make up this universal salvation foolishness. They will not let God be God. They feel the need to rewrite scripture to fit their God. The only problem is, their God is not the God of the Bible. They ignore Romans nine where God speaks of the vessels of wrath that are PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTUION. I have tried to show 2knowhim many verses to prove her error, but it did not one bit of good. I have the feeling we'd be speaking to the wall with Hisservant also.
It's best to just leave it in God's hands.
God bless.


Tom


The thing of it is you read that scripture and see destruction of the person.
We read that and see the destruction of the carnal nature, which is against God.

You see Punishment and Annihilation.
We see Life and Redemption.
 
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Tombo

Guest
#90
The thing of it is you read that scripture and see destruction of the person.
We read that and see the destruction of the carnal nature, which is against God.

You see Punishment and Annihilation.
We see Life and Redemption.
And you see wrong.


Tom
 
Apr 11, 2012
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#91
Tom, you believe that if God doesn't open one's eyes then he will remain blind. But I say again you contradict your own self. If it is to God to open the eyes of the blind, if one is to burn forever or perish then by your doctrine of death, God is to blame!


Cfultz3. You say that there are men with NO faith. But the very same bible you use to teach your doctrine of death says that EVERYMAN has a measure of faith.

You both are fearful of being wrong. Let go of the pride gentlemen. And to think Tom, I gave you a "like"! Lol
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#92
Tom, you believe that if God doesn't open one's eyes then he will remain blind. But I say again you contradict your own self. If it is to God to open the eyes of the blind, if one is to burn forever or perish then by your doctrine of death, God is to blame!


Cfultz3. You say that there are men with NO faith. But the very same bible you use to teach your doctrine of death says that EVERYMAN has a measure of faith.

You both are fearful of being wrong. Let go of the pride gentlemen. And to think Tom, I gave you a "like"! Lol
All people are born dead in sin. If God decided to save some and let others perish, that is His right to do. God owes no one anything, He is sovereign. I don't see any contradiciton in what I've said. Read Romans chapter nine. What I said is true, if God does not open a persons eyes, they will remain blind.
The saved can't boast of any goodness in themsleves that "made" God save them, because they have none. And the lost can't complain that God passed them by, because they are dead in ther sins. Just the fact that they are dead in sin means that they don't want anything to do with God. Do you think the unsaved of the world are wringing their hands in fear of the judgment coming??? They don't even believe it will happen.
To teach that all will be saved contradicts EVERYTHING in the Bible, and you know it. If you don't want to believe it, that's your right, but please don't come with your teaching of universal salvation and expect rational people to take you seriously. It takes some pretty selective reading and twisting to come up with anything near what you are trying to teach. It is impossible because it's completely foreign to the Bible.
God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He wills, He hardens. It's a fact. If you think that God has saved you, then share Jesus Christ with ohters. But don't lead people into a false sense of securtiy by telling them that no matter what they do, all will be well in the end. Satan loves that kind of gospel. Or do you believe that satan will be saved also, just as 2knowhim does???

Tom
 
Apr 11, 2012
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#93
All people are born dead in sin. If God decided to save some and let others perish, that is His right to do. God owes no one anything, He is sovereign. I don't see any contradiciton in what I've said. Read Romans chapter nine. What I said is true, if God does not open a persons eyes, they will remain blind.
The saved can't boast of any goodness in themsleves that "made" God save them, because they have none. And the lost can't complain that God passed them by, because they are dead in ther sins. Just the fact that they are dead in sin means that they don't want anything to do with God. Do you think the unsaved of the world are wringing their hands in fear of the judgment coming??? They don't even believe it will happen.
To teach that all will be saved contradicts EVERYTHING in the Bible, and you know it. If you don't want to believe it, that's your right, but please don't come with your teaching of universal salvation and expect rational people to take you seriously. It takes some pretty selective reading and twisting to come up with anything near what you are trying to teach. It is impossible because it's completely foreign to the Bible.
God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He wills, He hardens. It's a fact. If you think that God has saved you, then share Jesus Christ with ohters. But don't lead people into a false sense of securtiy by telling them that no matter what they do, all will be well in the end. Satan loves that kind of gospel. Or do you believe that satan will be saved also, just as 2knowhim does???

Tom
Again Tom I GAVE YOU KUDOS for that post. It is truth. Where you fall off is your belief in that. God does all those things. So if I'm a sinner and lost, God having not opened my eyes to the truth, is it my fault then when I burn forever or perish? They are indeed unclean vessels fitted for destruction, BUT with the PURPOSE of making the power of God KNOWN!

You believe you are a vessel of mercy. I ask you, do you appear as such, or will you also go to the grave as they will? If satan is a being, then yes. All is reconciled to God.
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#94
Again Tom I GAVE YOU KUDOS for that post. It is truth. Where you fall off is your belief in that. God does all those things. So if I'm a sinner and lost, God having not opened my eyes to the truth, is it my fault then when I burn forever or perish? They are indeed unclean vessels fitted for destruction, BUT with the PURPOSE of making the power of God KNOWN!

You believe you are a vessel of mercy. I ask you, do you appear as such, or will you also go to the grave as they will? If satan is a being, then yes. All is reconciled to God.

You're using the same objection that was leveled against the apostle Paul in Romans 9.
Rom. 9:18-20 "So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will? But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"

You need to take that last verse, "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God" seriously. In fact, read the verses that follow it.

Tom
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#95
There has been no shortage of heresy on here lately. Some teach salvation by works, while others teach salvation by just being created. Some think they can repent of themselves and God will (indeed, is indebted) to save them, while others think repentance doesn't matter because there is nothing you could possibly do to be lost!!!! They both belittle the work of Jesus Christ, and this is both evil and sad.
God have mercy on both.

Tom
This is an open and inclusive forum where people from all sorts of backgrounds post. As is the case with all english speaking forums of this kind there will always be extremists, trolls and lonely sailors (who represent not so much more than themselves) who see an opportunity in a platform for their bizarre ideas. Then you will have these all-knowing people (usually in, but not limited to, their 20s) who are the only ones who are right about everything. None other in church history has "seen" what they have "seen". No problem to go against scripture either. And so forth. Often times these guys would sooner or later go too far on something and get banned as a result (though cc has a high roof). So, yes, here we some examples of the extreme. It makes the average arminian and synergist look moderate in comparision.

PS. I am not speaking of "seekers" here, I am speaking about those with an agenda.
 
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Apr 11, 2012
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#96
You're using the same objection that was leveled against the apostle Paul in Romans 9.
Rom. 9:18-20 "So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will? But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"

You need to take that last verse, "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God" seriously. In fact, read the verses that follow it.

Tom
Romans 9

9 I (me talking to you Tom) say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh (those who claim christ as Lord or christians):

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel (most call Him Lord but are workers of iniquity) :

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
(see that Tom? without having done ANYTHING. why? So that election may stand and NOT works, no matter what adjective you put on front of it)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God (like you say Tom. God has opened YOUR eyes but has left mine shut so that I may perish. yet God tells you to forgive your enemies. you make Him out to be a hypocrite) ? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh (whom God also knew BEFORE the womb) , Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou (you) wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (you say this when things like so we can just do what we want with no consequences then if all are saved)

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump (God made both moses and pharaoh of this lump) to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (why did God make vessels of destruction Tom? so that He can visibly show His wrath)
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,(why did he make you Tom? to make visibly known the riches of His glory.. but why do you die an unclean vessels death?)

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 
Apr 11, 2012
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#97
This is an open and inclusive forum where people from all sorts of backgrounds post. As is the case with all english speaking forums of this kind there will always be extremists, trolls and lonely sailors (who represent not so much more than themselves) who see an opportunity in a platform for their bizarre ideas. Then you will have these all-knowing people (usually in, but not limited to, their 20s) who are the only ones who are right about everything. None other in church history has "seen" what they have "seen". No problem to go against scripture either. And so forth. Often times these guys would sooner or later go too far on something and get banned as a result (though cc has a high roof). So, yes, here we some examples of the extreme. It makes the average arminian and synergist look moderate in comparision.

PS. I am not speaking of "seekers" here, I am speaking about those with an agenda.


What "agenda" could we possibly be on?? This message myself and my beloved 2knowhim brings you profits us NONE! I will not speak for her but I can care less if anyone believes my message. It doesn't make it any less true.

We cannot sell any books, or pass any collection plates. When Michael Jackson was alive, in the U.S. when his album didn't sell here and all the media had us calling him "wacko jacko", he did an interview and said that the very same album is #1 in every other country except his own. And now that he's dead, one or more songs of his plays on the radio daily! And his record sales here are strong again!


You see friend, death sells! Life not so much!
 
Oct 12, 2011
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#98
Quote by Tombo

"If God decided to save some and let others perish, that is His right to do."

It's no wonder you view us the way you do, It's the same way you view God.
And It's no wonder that "Christians" today, are viewed as Hypocrites.

Explain that comment to someone who's lost and hurting, and need to Know that God is Love.
There has got to be some what of a wrestling within yourself to bring balance to a statement like that.
Unless you are totally ignoring it. See, these things you can't hid from us, why?, because we have been where your at, .......But you have not been where we are yet.

And this statement to me, is nothing more than a cop-out, so that you can hold on to what man has taught you.
How can I say this, because I have done the same thing too in times past.

"that is His right to do. God owes no one anything, He is sovereign."


Truth is not found by reading in the pages of the bible, that's basic principles and doctrine which are true and necessary, But Truth comes in an Intimate Relationship with Him, it is NOT found in Doctrine.
Truth is a Being, it is the Nature of God Himself.

It's just like in grade school one learns fine motor skills and how to read and write, but then you move on to High school, and then to college, you don't forget what you've learned in all those stages, but you grow up, to one day face the world and how to use those things through experience.

God wants us to KNOW HIM, and WHY He does what He does not through Knowledge but through Experience. That's when you learn HIS NATURE, now, it's not about KNOWLEDGE or you learning Anymore, It's about the one who gave you that knowledge to begin with, and how to use it for others, and for His Glory and His Purpose.

You need to go further IN HIM, You need to go higher IN HIM. When God draws someone to Himself does He do it in Love and compassion or does He do it with threats of Hell and Annihilation?
It's His goodness that leads thee to Repentance.
God is more than capable to correct and guide once you have come to believe in Him.

God always does things in Three's, most of the church today is still in the outer court, very few have even stepped foot in the inner court realm, and even fewer less, has entered beyond the veil, where conception, and birthing comes forth. The same as with the stages of the cross, you cannot remain at the foot of it, in repentance, you must move on to the Death of Death, and further yet, into the RESURRECTION Which is found IN HIM, that is when you truly will find HIS LIFE and not your own.

Agenda you say, if there is any Agenda with us, it is to bring The Manifestation of The Christ into this World, through the Love and Compassion that He Himself brought, by laying down His life for others.

It's time we started to turn our Swords into Plowshares, and Plant, not kill.
People need to know that they can experience Heaven here and now, they've had enough Hell and torment. But we cannot give what we do not have. SO GET IT! There are many who are in waiting, not only here, but also on the other side as well.
 
C

chesser

Guest
#99
Come on all you Jewish believers that love Yeshua and are astute in the whole counsel of the word of YHWH. What does the Torah, the prophets and the other scriptures have to say about eternal damnation for the wicked? Has YHWH created a place of judgment and torment for the wicked to only annihilate them or refine them so that they can serve their sentence of death and be restored at a later age in eternity? Is YHWH silent on this matter or are you not speaking for YHWH these days? That's what some seem to believe and I have not heard a peep out of any of you.

You sit back and you accuse others of picking and choosing and not living by the entire word of YHWH. You belittle them calling them stupid and accuse them of having an evil spirit and then you go around laying these burdens of the commandments on others and never lift your finger to relieve them or build them up because you consider that to be tough love according to the Torah, the word of YHWH. Your precious (10) commandments are (80 %) negative prohibitions telling those rebellious and incontinent Israelites what they should not be doing because they were practicing these things right under the nose of Moses and Aaron and violated every one of them.

If you and I were there we might have also done the same. That entire first generation with the exception of Joshua and Caleb never made or entered the promise land. Some were swallowed up, the (10) spies and others died by a plague, some by serpent's bites, some through capital punishment and others just got weary and couldn't take it any longer. Some first church they became in the wilderness, murmurers and complainers who were supernaturally feed, were given water, shoes and clothes that did not wear out, were guided by day and by night and had the promise of an inheritance and all they wanted to do is go back to Egypt, where they had been in bondage for some 400 years, because there it was comfortable for their flesh. They failed the test big time and they were not rewarded either.

Got anything to say about eternal damnation. What does your Torah have to say about it? I wonder how many of their names were blotted out of the book!
hey, so im part jewish but i do know jewish theology(minimaly) and basically there are 2 views 1. the wicked are destroyed 2. the wicked go to hell for a period of time which can last up to 12 months, after that their either accepted into heaven, or if the soul is truly wicked,destroyed.
 
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chesser

Guest
oh im christian thoiugh, not jewish(in terms of religion) i reread that last post and it may have seemed asif i said im jewish